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Old 03-30-2012, 08:56   #941
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Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
Aside from the fact that it is a bad idea, it is illegal. A CCW should never leave the holster unless you plan to shoot in a self defense situation, period.
Agree with you, Roger ......... Here in Colorado a drawn handgun would fall in the "menacing" category.......
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:34   #942
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I still stick to my original opinion of this situation. It could have all been avoided had Zimmerman just stayed in his car and waited for the police to arrive. His extremely poor judgment caused this tragedy and that is something he will carry on his shoulders for the rest of his life no matter what happens now.
Absolutely.



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Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
When following a suspicious and possibly dangerous person without any back-up, would it make sense to do so with firearm drawn, low and ready to address the unknown?

.
No. He is neighborhood watch. He does not seem to have any reason to believe the person is armed or is committing/is about to commit/just commit a violent crime. It is far beyond any capacity he might have to follow somebody with a gun drawn.

Fortunately, for Zimmerman, it does not currently appear that he did so.
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Last edited by Warp; 03-30-2012 at 09:35..
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:57   #943
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Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
When following a suspicious and possibly dangerous person without any back-up, would it make sense to do so with firearm drawn, low and ready to address the unknown?

.
It would make no sense to me. If you feel the need to draw your weapon you must be concerned about a potential immediate attack.

You are not a police officer, so withdrawal from situation. Maybe having firearm ready as you withdrew could be justified however.

Frankly, this whole neighborhood watch thing is making less and less sense to me. Sure if you see something report it, but don't go following people or going on patrol.

Last edited by jack76590; 03-30-2012 at 09:59..
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:13   #944
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Misty, very interesting question. Interesting enough for its own thread. How about starting it?

Thanks...
Na, Iím shy! It may also not make sense to others when out of context (comment that brought the question and previous comments as well).
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As the media is pointing out (for a civilian), drawing a weapon and following someone because of their appearance/race might not be a good idea.
We donít need the media to point that out for us, hopefully.
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Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
Aside from the fact that it is a bad idea, it is illegal. A CCW should never leave the holster unless you plan to shoot in a self defense situation, period.
In my uneducated opinion, it could be deadly to develop hard rules where self-defense is concerned that donít allow adjustment to the actual situation being faced. Yes, there are certain lines I have no intentions of ever crossing but the rest of my physical, mental and emotional training needs to allow flexibility to address specifics unknown to me now.

For the sake of argument assume Iím the one being followed. Iíve made some turns, Iíve hidden, there is little doubt that an unknown person with unknown intentions is after me. I would not hesitate to make a run for my car or other cover/concealment place with my firearm drawn and ready to address being confronted at that point.

There could be times when your firearm may need to leave its holster and not a shot be fired. I do agree that if you draw it, it is not to be for intimidation, if necessary the shot is to be fired.

.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:22   #945
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Absolutely.





No. He is neighborhood watch. He does not seem to have any reason to believe the person is armed or is committing/is about to commit/just commit a violent crime. It is far beyond any capacity he might have to follow somebody with a gun drawn.

Fortunately, for Zimmerman, it does not currently appear that he did so.
Iíve read no reports to that effect either. In this case getting out of the car was not appropriate. Following someone you know nothing about alone was not appropriate. (My personal opinions that have absolutely nothing to do with what is legal or not)

The comment about following with a drawn weapon was more in the general sense and not necessarily specific to Zimmerman's case/side. I canít see myself following a possibly dangerous person, unless the safety of a loved one was at risk, that being the case, it would likely be with firearm drawn low and ready.

.
.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:27   #946
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Originally Posted by jack76590 View Post
It would make no sense to me. If you feel the need to draw your weapon you must be concerned about a potential immediate attack.

You are not a police officer, so withdrawal from situation. Maybe having firearm ready as you withdrew could be justified however.

Frankly, this whole neighborhood watch thing is making less and less sense to me. Sure if you see something report it, but don't go following people or going on patrol.
Lucky you! It has never made any sense to me at all.

.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:28   #947
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Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
When following a suspicious and possibly dangerous person without any back-up, would it make sense to do so with firearm drawn, low and ready to address the unknown?

.
Consult the law where you are.

This is Florida (land of "flowers") Statue:

-----
Title XLVI
CRIMES
Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
View Entire Chapter776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.ó(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that personís will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a personís dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:(a) ďDwellingĒ means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) ďResidenceĒ means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) ďVehicleĒ means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.



----
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:40   #948
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My interpretation of the above is that it does not seem to apply to Zimmer.

The requirement of Home or Place of Biz or Vehicle is not met, in Zimmer's case. He was on someone else's property using a gun. There can be an argument about whether as a Watch Captain, you are or are NOT authorized to be on property of another owner. Addressing it another way, when you are in a neighborhood with a Watch program, does it mean you granted the right to be an "invited guest" to Watch personel ?

In a CCW class, we talked about a gas station case (not your biz or property) when a hold up is occuring and you see it from the outside, BG (s) pointing gun(s) at clerks. Do you, at that point, use your 10mm hollowpoint to address the situation and still be protected by the FL law ? They said, "Yes".

Or do you sit in the car and wait for LE, watching and watching ? Very expedient but should the clerk expires leaving kids then will you sleep well ?

The law covers some parts and morality covers some parts. Then simple expediency provides a different guide.

Last edited by ModGlock17; 03-30-2012 at 10:42.. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:34   #949
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This is the FL Statue that protects Zimmer:

Title XLVI
CRIMES
Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
View Entire Chapter776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

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Old 03-30-2012, 12:19   #950
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Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
In my uneducated opinion, it could be deadly to develop hard rules where self-defense is concerned that donít allow adjustment to the actual situation being faced. Yes, there are certain lines I have no intentions of ever crossing but the rest of my physical, mental and emotional training needs to allow flexibility to address specifics unknown to me now.

For the sake of argument assume Iím the one being followed. Iíve made some turns, Iíve hidden, there is little doubt that an unknown person with unknown intentions is after me. I would not hesitate to make a run for my car or other cover/concealment place with my firearm drawn and ready to address being confronted at that point.

There could be times when your firearm may need to leave its holster and not a shot be fired. I do agree that if you draw it, it is not to be for intimidation, if necessary the shot is to be fired.

.
My uneducated opinion is that the person following me will never know I have a concealed firearm unless I have to draw it because I feel my life is in immediate danger. My hand would be near it in a ready position should the need arise, but the pistol would not be drawn. The only scenario where my CCW would ever be drawn and no shots fired is if the action of my assailant seeing me draw my weapon diffused the situation and I no longer felt there was a threat. As in, he either retreats or hits the floor and stops advancing.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:43   #951
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And Zimmerman would have to be an absolute (not partial as we kind of already know he is) moron, to have pulled his gun (thinking it would scare Martin, a common misconception among people who haven't been in deadly force encounters), then been attacked by Martin in self-defense when he saw it, and then shooting Martin, and then admitting it happened that way to the police.
The bigger moron would be the one attacking someone with a gun out with just his hands.
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Old 03-30-2012, 13:09   #952
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Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
My interpretation of the above is that it does not seem to apply to Zimmer.

The requirement of Home or Place of Biz or Vehicle is not met, in Zimmer's case. He was on someone else's property using a gun. There can be an argument about whether as a Watch Captain, you are or are NOT authorized to be on property of another owner. Addressing it another way, when you are in a neighborhood with a Watch program, does it mean you granted the right to be an "invited guest" to Watch personel ?

In a CCW class, we talked about a gas station case (not your biz or property) when a hold up is occuring and you see it from the outside, BG (s) pointing gun(s) at clerks. Do you, at that point, use your 10mm hollowpoint to address the situation and still be protected by the FL law ? They said, "Yes".

Or do you sit in the car and wait for LE, watching and watching ? Very expedient but should the clerk expires leaving kids then will you sleep well ?

The law covers some parts and morality covers some parts. Then simple expediency provides a different guide.
Where was Zimmerman, precisely?
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Old 03-30-2012, 13:21   #953
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Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
My interpretation of the above is that it does not seem to apply to Zimmer.

The requirement of Home or Place of Biz or Vehicle is not met, in Zimmer's case. He was on someone else's property using a gun. There can be an argument about whether as a Watch Captain, you are or are NOT authorized to be on property of another owner. Addressing it another way, when you are in a neighborhood with a Watch program, does it mean you granted the right to be an "invited guest" to Watch personel ?
Whose property do you think he was on? Usually the grounds of these types of places are designated as common areas and maintained by the homeowners' association. As a resident of the community, he'd generally have a right to be there as long as he was in compliance with any rules set forth by the association.
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Old 03-30-2012, 13:23   #954
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The bigger moron would be the one attacking someone with a gun out with just his hands.
So, if someone pulls a gun on you, and you don't have a weapon, and you think he is going to shoot you, what is your plan? To just die?
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Old 03-30-2012, 13:28   #955
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Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
My interpretation of the above is that it does not seem to apply to Zimmer.

The requirement of Home or Place of Biz or Vehicle is not met, in Zimmer's case. He was on someone else's property using a gun. There can be an argument about whether as a Watch Captain, you are or are NOT authorized to be on property of another owner. Addressing it another way, when you are in a neighborhood with a Watch program, does it mean you granted the right to be an "invited guest" to Watch personel ?

In a CCW class, we talked about a gas station case (not your biz or property) when a hold up is occuring and you see it from the outside, BG (s) pointing gun(s) at clerks. Do you, at that point, use your 10mm hollowpoint to address the situation and still be protected by the FL law ? They said, "Yes".

Or do you sit in the car and wait for LE, watching and watching ? Very expedient but should the clerk expires leaving kids then will you sleep well ?

The law covers some parts and morality covers some parts. Then simple expediency provides a different guide.
Not sure at what point this came up, but under the facts as they have been stated in the press, the "duty to retreat" and "stand your ground" are irrelevant. You never had a "duty to retreat" if you couldn't do so, safely, and the only version of this story on record says Martin knocked Zimmerman down and jumped on him. "Stand your ground" is not a factor.

The evidence suggests they were both on a public sidewalk (hence, Zimmerman's head being beaten against it).
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Old 03-30-2012, 13:33   #956
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Originally Posted by ATW525 View Post
Whose property do you think he was on? Usually the grounds of these types of places are designated as common areas and maintained by the homeowners' association. As a resident of the community, he'd generally have a right to be there as long as he was in compliance with any rules set forth by the association.
I'll add that, under Florida law, it is not a trespass to just be on someone else's private property (unless it is land used for growing crops, like orange groves). They could both have been walking through the private yard of a house and it would not have been a crime.

Quote:
810.09 Trespass on property other than structure or conveyance.—
(1)(a) A person who, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters upon or remains in any property other than a structure or conveyance:
1. As to which notice against entering or remaining is given, either by actual communication to the offender or by posting, fencing, or cultivation as described in s. 810.011; or
2. If the property is the unenclosed curtilage of a dwelling and the offender enters or remains with the intent to commit an offense thereon, other than the offense of trespass,

commits the offense of trespass on property other than a structure or conveyance.
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Old 03-30-2012, 13:52   #957
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So, if someone pulls a gun on you, and you don't have a weapon, and you think he is going to shoot you, what is your plan? To just die?
I would rather run the risk of POSSIBLY being shot while trying to run away rather than GAURANTEEING I am going to be shot by trying to fist fight with someone that just pulled a gun on me.
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Old 03-30-2012, 14:36   #958
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I would rather run the risk of POSSIBLY being shot while trying to run away rather than GUARANTEEING I am going to be shot by trying to fist fight with someone that just pulled a gun on me.
Bingo! As far as I'm concerned this remark is spot-on. That's one of the things that's been bothering me, most, about this incident. I'd, also, like to know whether or not evidence of narcotics use was found in Martin's blood?



ADDED: The alternative is, of course, that Zimmerman did NOT reveal the pistol until some point after his head was being smacked into the ground. The only thing I do not doubt is that Zimmerman WAS getting the worst of this engagement until he fired that shot.

Last edited by Arc Angel; 03-30-2012 at 14:42..
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Old 03-30-2012, 14:44   #959
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... I'd, also, like to know whether or not evidence of narcotics use was found in Martin's blood? ...
Me too, and add Z's as well.
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Old 03-30-2012, 14:46   #960
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