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Old 04-04-2012, 17:02   #1201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
It's common knowledge the police didn't release information pending the investigation. It's also common knowledge that played a part in the no confidence vote and police chief stepping down.
It's common knowledge that police departments do not normally release specifics of a case or make public comments regarding a case until they are at least through with the investigation..
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Old 04-04-2012, 18:19   #1202
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Zimmerman is not guilty of a crime (under Florida law) ......

Perhaps he is guilty of being stupid ....... and for that his life has changed forever...
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Old 04-04-2012, 18:35   #1203
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
Without a doubt, for whatever reasons justifiable or not, the Sanford police didn't give the parents the information they needed. The police, media, and parents have pretty much agreed on that.
Need, want and can have are all different things. The special prosecutor assigned has declared a media black-out until they are finished with their investigation. What makes anyone think that the rules would be different while the investigation was being conducted by the PD?

When did the police agree that they had not given the parents the information they needed?

.
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Old 04-04-2012, 18:44   #1204
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Originally Posted by bear62 View Post
Zimmerman is not guilty of a crime (under Florida law) ......

Perhaps he is guilty of being stupid ....... and for that his life has changed forever...
How do you know that for sure?

Iíve seen people go free that I was certain were guilty. There are also people that have been charged and convicted that are likely innocent.

If there is a trial and all the permissible evidence and witness statements is exposed to the jury, donít assume ALL they have has been made available.

Lawyers and judges prepare and do tons of research before each case where they have access to everything there is. No one outside the special prosecutorís office at the moment may know all there is to know and even they donít seem to be certain yet if Zimmerman could be guilty of a crime or not (or they would have stated they have concluded their investigation and found nothing).
.
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Old 04-04-2012, 18:59   #1205
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Originally Posted by bear62 View Post
Zimmerman is not guilty of a crime (under Florida law) ......

Perhaps he is guilty of being stupid ....... and for that his life has changed forever...
Based on what we know, I would concur with you. He should have NEVER gotten out of his car, even though I believe he did turn back after 911 suggested he do so and was then attacked (which is why police haven't arrested him). Responsible people who carry know to avoid confrontation when you can, part of having SA.

I believe when the facts of the case come out, you'll see all the race hustlers shut up, like what happened with the Duke Lacrosse case, but we shall see.
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Old 04-04-2012, 19:28   #1206
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Originally Posted by whoflungdo View Post
It's common knowledge that police departments do not normally release specifics of a case or make public comments regarding a case until they are at least through with the investigation..
+1
And that is a good thing, IMO
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Old 04-04-2012, 19:32   #1207
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Where did you read he'd been taught not to trust the cops?
Where did I read it? Obviously the same place the guy I was responding to read that Z.s suspicions were probably well-founded. I speculated.
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Old 04-04-2012, 19:41   #1208
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Zimmerman is not guilty of a crime (under Florida law) ......

Perhaps he is guilty of being stupid ....... and for that his life has changed forever...
That is absolutely correct. End of story. Now everybody go home and be done/move on. Should not even be a grand jury.
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Old 04-04-2012, 19:42   #1209
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Where did I read it? Obviously the same place the guy I was responding to read that Z.s suspicions were probably well-founded. I speculated.
What did you base your speculation on?

Speculations don't just get created out of thin air.
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Old 04-04-2012, 20:32   #1210
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I think it's obvious to most of us here this looks like a good shoot, but I will say this. It is also a good lesson to AVOID confrontation as much as possible. For example, getting out of your car in Zimmerman's case, bad idea. I think we can all agree there. Let's all be responsible handgun carriers and exercise outstanding judgement at all times, so if, God forbid any of us have to shoot in self defense, there is no question about the shoot and no remorse on your part (I suspect Zimmerman feels plenty of remorse and wishes he never exited his vehicle, even though what he did wasn't legal nor did it warrant an attack).
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Old 04-04-2012, 20:34   #1211
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For example, getting out of your car in Zimmerman's case, bad idea.
I think that agreement to that is the closest thing to a consensus I have seen thus far.
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Old 04-04-2012, 20:55   #1212
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So my best friend, who happens to be African-American has an opinion on the matter. He believes Zimmerman defended himself, but from his view point, he has anger towards Zimmerman because as he put it, he was the adult and didn't have to get out of his car. As he put, why would someone who was worried enough about someone to call 911 get out and follow that person or even put himself in any harms way? This is a quote from my friend, who is pro-2a although doesn't carry (NY) but knows I carrry, "You can't be an idiot with a gun."

I agree with that, I've read constantly about others on this forum who always talk about avoiding situations, well now we see why. We see how the media can spin, and even how reasonable people can see a gun owner acting in self defense as acting irresponsibly, because that gun owner could have avoided the situation even though they were attacked unprovoked.

I think this shooting is a good lesson for all of us, I hope the stand your ground law in Florida remains unchanged, but I hope that every person who carries takes note of this case and does not become braver simply because a gun is strapped to their hip.
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Old 04-04-2012, 21:25   #1213
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Clearly a bad result, but I still have a hard time with a conclusion that you can't get out of the car. Don't confront? OK, I'll buy that. But if there were 9 burglaries in 15 months in my neighborhood I'd have a hard time saying everyone just wait for the cops and might do a little extra to keep an eye on the bad guys. And doing so shouldn't vitiate your right of self defense. Just sayin.

Actually I'd probably move but I recognize not eveyone has that inclination or luxury.
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Old 04-04-2012, 21:29   #1214
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Clearly a bad result, but I still have a hard time with a conclusion that you can't get out of the car. Don't confront? OK, I'll buy that. But if there were 9 burglaries in 15 months in my neighborhood I'd have a hard time saying everyone just wait for the cops and might do a little extra to keep an eye on the bad guys. And doing so shouldn't vitiate your right of self defense. Just sayin.

Actually I'd probably move but I recognize not eveyone has that inclination or luxury.
Can't get out of the car? No.

Getting out of the car meaning he cannot then defend himself? Not at all.

Getting out of the car as a mistake? Call it a tactical mistake if you like. Absolutely.

The fact that we have this incident/potential case to discuss shows why. Too much risk. Too much risk. WAY too much risk, for too little reward.
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Old 04-04-2012, 21:33   #1215
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Need, want and can have are all different things. The special prosecutor assigned has declared a media black-out until they are finished with their investigation. What makes anyone think that the rules would be different while the investigation was being conducted by the PD?

When did the police agree that they had not given the parents the information they needed?

.
As closely as you have followed this, I'm really surprised you don't agree that the police didn't give the parents the information the parents wanted. But I have no doubt, that if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed, and if no arrest was made, you would sit patiently and wait. Believe it or not, there are parents who are not be as patient and understanding as you.
Honestly, if someone shot my dog, I doubt I could wait patiently for months to get answers as to why it happened.
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Old 04-04-2012, 21:34   #1216
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As closely as you have followed this, I'm really surprised you don't agree that the police didn't give the parents the information the parents wanted. But I have no doubt, that if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed, and if no arrest was made, you would sit patiently and wait. Believe it or not, there are parents who are not be as patient and understanding as you.
Honestly, if someone shot my dog, I doubt I could wait patiently for months to get answers as to why it happened.
Months?
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Old 04-04-2012, 21:36   #1217
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Clearly a bad result, but I still have a hard time with a conclusion that you can't get out of the car. Don't confront? OK, I'll buy that.
I'm playing devil's advocate, I understand your point of view, but I'll try my best to make you see the other side's point of view, which is a large part of society and that happens to be important for you to understand if you want to stay out of hot water...

Here is a question, if George Zimmerman did not get out of his car, with what he believed to be a questionable character in his neighborhood, would there have been a shooting? Answer that honestly with a yes or no and then you might be able to see the other point of view.

I'll go further, do you believe George Zimmerman regrets getting out of the car that night? Answer that honestly and I think you'll be able to understand why people say SA is your best defense and part of that is avoiding conflict or putting yourself in a situation where conflict can occur. This is why this case is a good lesson for all of us who carry.
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Old 04-04-2012, 21:49   #1218
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Originally Posted by PAGunner View Post
I'm playing devil's advocate, I understand your point of view, but I'll try my best to make you see the other side's point of view, which is a large part of society and that happens to be important for you to understand if you want to stay out of hot water...

Here is a question, if George Zimmerman did not get out of his car, with what he believed to be a questionable character in his neighborhood, would there have been a shooting? Answer that honestly with a yes or no and then you might be able to see the other point of view.

I'll go further, do you believe George Zimmerman regrets getting out of the car that night? Answer that honestly and I think you'll be able to understand why people say SA is your best defense and part of that is avoiding conflict or putting yourself in a situation where conflict can occur. This is why this case is a good lesson for all of us who carry.
Bingo.

Even if the special prosecutor comes out and says Zimmeran was 100% justified, did nothing illegal, and need not fear prosecution...he would still be 10,000x better off had he stayed in his car.

And it's not like we are saying this based purely upon 20/20 hindsight, I suspect a great many of us would recommend staying in the car if this scenario was presented as a hypothetical that stopped at that decision point.
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Old 04-04-2012, 21:55   #1219
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By your logic, to avoid unnecessary jeopardy, one would also choose not to participate in any neighborhood watch program either. See this thread:

Advise on Joining Neighborhood Watch
<http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412561>

The world would be a much poorer place if everyone avoided all responsibility and no one was willing to "stick his neck out" to help other members of his community.
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Old 04-04-2012, 22:13   #1220
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By your logic, to avoid unnecessary jeopardy, one would also choose not to participate in any neighborhood watch program either. See this thread:

Advise on Joining Neighborhood Watch
<http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412561>

The world would be a much poorer place if everyone avoided all responsibility and no one was willing to "stick his neck out" to help other members of his community.
Whose logic are you referring to?
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Old 04-04-2012, 22:15   #1221
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As closely as you have followed this, I'm really surprised you don't agree that the police didn't give the parents the information the parents wanted. But I have no doubt, that if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed, and if no arrest was made, you would sit patiently and wait. Believe it or not, there are parents who are not be as patient and understanding as you.
Honestly, if someone shot my dog, I doubt I could wait patiently for months to get answers as to why it happened.
While parents and family want information, the police need to make a thorough investigation using facts collected from untainted witnesses. Withholding critical information insures witnesses' recollections will not be swayed by what others say.

That's the way it works in the real world, SpringerTGO.

I've posted here before that I just went through a self defense shooting with my best friend. It took 8 1/2 months to complete the investigation and go to the Grand Jury. My friend was never arrested. The GJ no billed the case.

The family of the man shot also wanted to know about what was happening with the investigation. They also went to the media. They also introduced false and misleading information in their interviews.

This is not CSI television where you get to see the work that goes on behind the scenes as it happens.

What the family WANTS is not important to the investigation. The fair and complete investigation IS what's important.

You keep saying, "...if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed..."

How about the parent of the person claiming self defense? Do they not deserve a fair and thorough investigation without chance of errors being made resulting in a rush to justice.

Yes, everyone, what took seconds to happen will take months to resolve.
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Old 04-04-2012, 22:21   #1222
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And it's not like we are saying this based purely upon 20/20 hindsight, I suspect a great many of us would recommend staying in the car if this scenario was presented as a hypothetical that stopped at that decision point.
Is what's in bold the logic you refer to here...
Quote:
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By your logic, to avoid unnecessary jeopardy, one would also choose not to participate in any neighborhood watch program either. See this thread:

Advise on Joining Neighborhood Watch
<http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1412561>

The world would be a much poorer place if everyone avoided all responsibility and no one was willing to "stick his neck out" to help other members of his community.
How do you get what's in bold from Warp's "staying in the car"?

I do not see it.
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Old 04-04-2012, 22:26   #1223
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I was speaking in reference to PAGunner.
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Old 04-04-2012, 22:38   #1224
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Bingo.

Even if the special prosecutor comes out and says Zimmeran was 100% justified, did nothing illegal, and need not fear prosecution...he would still be 10,000x better off had he stayed in his car.

And it's not like we are saying this based purely upon 20/20 hindsight, I suspect a great many of us would recommend staying in the car if this scenario was presented as a hypothetical that stopped at that decision point.
ditto

And to summarized,


All of the hassle he is in, to include trial by media, cost of a lawyer, hiding in fear for now and potentially the rest of his life. For what..............................?

A kid who happen to be black that he thought was suspicious, but not committing a recognozable crime at the time this rope was starting unravel by Mr.Z. Nor was TM placing Mr.Z or anybody else life , into a condition of serious bodily injury or harm.
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Old 04-04-2012, 22:49   #1225
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While parents and family want information, the police need to make a thorough investigation using facts collected from untainted witnesses. Withholding critical information insures witnesses' recollections will not be swayed by what others say.

That's the way it works in the real world, SpringerTGO.

I've posted here before that I just went through a self defense shooting with my best friend. It took 8 1/2 months to complete the investigation and go to the Grand Jury. My friend was never arrested. The GJ no billed the case.

The family of the man shot also wanted to know about what was happening with the investigation. They also went to the media. They also introduced false and misleading information in their interviews.

This is not CSI television where you get to see the work that goes on behind the scenes as it happens.

What the family WANTS is not important to the investigation. The fair and complete investigation IS what's important.

You keep saying, "...if you were the parent of the teenager who was killed..."

How about the parent of the person claiming self defense? Do they not deserve a fair and thorough investigation without chance of errors being made resulting in a rush to justice.

Yes, everyone, what took seconds to happen will take months to resolve.
Russ,
I am not saying that the parents of the teenager who was killed are right. What I am saying is that it is human nature to want answers immediately.
And Warp... everyone here is saying that it would take months before the police (right or wrong) would be able to release complete information.

Funny how this forum is working. I have said repeatedly that I believe Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. But so many people here have made up their minds about Travon's guilt, but Zimmermans stupidity.

Russ, Misty, and Warp..... you are all way better people than me, if you can patiently sit back and wait for months for answers as to why your kid was killed.
I have no respect for the way the media has handled this and turned it into a race war. But only on the 'net can people sit back and complacently say how much better they would handle their kid being killed, and how ignorant others are for questioning (or understanding) how others might deal with it.

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