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Old 03-15-2013, 21:15   #1
lostclusters
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Should seating and crimping be seperate stages?

I have been contemplating getting another crimping/seating die and making them separate processes. My concern is how can a proper crimp be applied with the bullet still moving? I hope I am not over thinking this.
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Old 03-15-2013, 21:41   #2
Any Cal.
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A heavy crimp doesn't work if the bullet is moving, but you don't really need much of any crimp as long as you have some neck tension. Just remove any case flare and you're good, a roll or taper crimp doesn't do anything other than finish the leading edge of the brass.
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Old 03-15-2013, 21:43   #3
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A moderate taper crimp should be used.
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Old 03-15-2013, 22:07   #4
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By all means it is much better to seat and crimp in separate steps.
As you push the straight bullets with out a cannelure there is no place for the brass to go and it may dig into the bullet material. Things like shaving bullet material off to making the casing buckle or spring open.

Seat to depth without any crimp being applied lets the bullet travel to the proper depth without hanging up. The taper crimping to finish which removes the flaring and placing a little extra tension on the bullet to secure its purchase. This prevents setback or bullet movement.

All of this adds up to better feed and function!
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Old 03-15-2013, 22:09   #5
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for semi auto cartridges seat and crimp in one step is no problem and I see no advantage to doing separately. On revolver round which need a roll crimp separate steps are better.
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Old 03-15-2013, 23:22   #6
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yes, I think so, and thats how i do it. On a progressive its not biggie.
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Old 03-16-2013, 00:31   #7
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I mostly seat and crimp in the same step. If using this procedure, it is critical to not over crimp. Crimping just enough to remove the bell is adviseable when taper crimping regardless. The crimp is really just a flare removal step and should not engrave the bullet at all. This is extra critical when seating and crimping in the same step/station. Doing so in this manner saves a step or station. When applying appropriate amount of crimp, then seating and crimping in the same step is good-to-go. If single stage loading, this is a big time saver with no detriment to the performance of volume loads.

If using soft plated bullets like Berry's, then seating and crimping in separate steps is critical.
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Old 03-17-2013, 13:10   #8
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If at all possible, ever, seating and crimping should always be separate stages, regardless of the cartridge. There are exceptions, and I use both methods, depending on the specific load and intent. Most "target" loads are one-step, and all hunting/defense/match loads are separate. Let the desired level of precision be the guide.

Reasons being, and other factors to consider: Case length, as well as other case dimensions. unless you trim all your cases to the same length, every time, single stage seat/crimp will vary the amount of crimp applied, relative to the case length. If you have a "short" case, it may not crimp, at all. If it's "long", it will crimp too much. Using a seat/crimp die, regardless of your method, will result the same, although the "feel" of crimping will vary according the case length, which offers a added option of checking a round if it didn't "feel" right. Dedicated crimp dies, especially the Lee FCD, have a MUCH less agressive crimp angle (taper). This makes the process much less critical of the case length (insignificant, according to Lee). Seat/crimp dies must crimp during a VERY short distance of the stroke, so as to allow the bullet to (nearly) fully seat before apply the crimp. The same also applies if you use mixed-brand brass, as the case wall and mouth thicknesses, and brass hardness, vary as much as the lengths.

Other things to consider are the variety of guns (chambers), pressures, bullet selection, case and bullet alloy hardness, and other variations (such as press tolerances). All these affect the demensions of a fired case at every part of the handloading process, in every direction imaginable.
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Old 03-17-2013, 19:49   #9
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Interesting to note that for high precision rifle cartridges, no crimping!
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Old 03-17-2013, 22:11   #10
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Interesting to note that for high precision rifle cartridges, no crimping!
No flaring, either. An oversized hard/thick copper jacketed (or solid) bullet is forced into an undersized case mouth. Many "high precision" bullets are also BT's (boat tail), which makes seating very easy. The case mouth comforms to the bullet. Softer, relatively thin jacketed (or softer yet, non-jacketed), larger (dia.) pistol bullets need some help. Then, we have to undo the "help".

Pistol bullets, such as Barnes, need less flare (the base is tapered), while others, such as cast PB's and GC's, need more. The amount of flare applied also varies, relative to the case length.

My practice:
Still, any large caliber rifle (.323+), hunting or SD rounds (.270+) get a crimp, usually Lee FCD. All tube-magazine rounds get a crimp. Tactical rounds, such as 7.62x39 and .223Rem, get a crimp, for reliability reasons (my preference, not necessarily the "standard") Seating and crimping is NEVER done in the same step.

If by "high precision", you mean Bench Rest and such, well, that's a different story altogether.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:21   #11
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Another factor is the depth and width (height) of the crimping groove (cannelure) on the bullet. A wide/deep one may allow you to seat and crimp simultaneously without issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
Interesting to note that for high precision rifle cartridges, no crimping!
I'm not so sure that military match ammo isn't crimped. But that may be an apples/oranges thing. They have their own reasons for the crimp. But generally reloaded rifle ammunition isn't crimped. I think you'll find that most factory ammo, rifle or handgun, IS crimped. As mentioned before, if you need to flare the case to seat the bullet, you'll need to at least remove any of the flare. Crimping is a way of increasing case neck tension. If you notice your bullets moving out (in a revolver) or in (in a semi-auto), you need to increase neck tension. Crimping and/or using a smaller diameter sizing die and/or expanding button will be needed. Neck tension can also affect the load's ballistic uniformity, especially when using slower powders/

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Old 03-18-2013, 13:43   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostclusters View Post
I have been contemplating getting another crimping/seating die and making them separate processes. My concern is how can a proper crimp be applied with the bullet still moving? I hope I am not over thinking this.
I always seat and crimp separately because it is easier and I am too lazy to fiddle with two things at the same time. So fare it has worked for me.
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Old 03-18-2013, 14:06   #13
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Originally Posted by hubcap500 View Post
Another factor is the depth and width (height) of the crimping groove (cannelure) on the bullet. A wide/deep one may allow you to seat and crimp simultaneously without issue.


I'm not so sure that military match ammo isn't crimped. But that may be an apples/oranges thing. They have their own reasons for the crimp. But generally reloaded rifle ammunition isn't crimped. I think you'll find that most factory ammo, rifle or handgun, IS crimped. As mentioned before, if you need to flare the case to seat the bullet, you'll need to at least remove any of the flare. Crimping is a way of increasing case neck tension. If you notice your bullets moving out (in a revolver) or in (in a semi-auto), you need to increase neck tension. Crimping and/or using a smaller diameter sizing die and/or expanding button will be needed. Neck tension can also affect the load's ballistic uniformity, especially when using slower powders/
Not to pick on you, but crimping will not increase bullet pull unless there is insufficient neck tension to start with. Even then, the crimp does almost nothing. The problem is that brass springs back far more than lead, so the crimp is always less after you remove the round from the die. The heavier the crimp, the more you push the lead away from the case mouth.

For an experiment, put a bullet in a fired case and give it whatever crimp you want. See how much force it takes to pull the bullet. Now pull a bullet seated in a sized case w/ no crimp, and see how much force it takes.

Neck tension does the work, the crimp is for removing the flare or finishing the leading edge. I would give a little more importance to the crimp on rough use or tube fed guns, but not for general shooting .
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Old 03-18-2013, 15:17   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dm1906 View Post
...

If by "high precision", you mean Bench Rest and such, well, that's a different story altogether.
Yes. That's what I meant. I actually had "sniper rounds" in there before I took it out.

I mean assembling rounds that will shoot one-quarter to one-third MOA, 5 shot sets in perfect weather condition. Everything will have to be so precise for a particular gun.
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Old 03-18-2013, 20:24   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostclusters View Post
I have been contemplating getting another crimping/seating die and making them separate processes. My concern is how can a proper crimp be applied with the bullet still moving? I hope I am not over thinking this.
One thing nobody's mentioned is your comment about the bullet still moving.

It is pretty rare, but I've done it in a couple calibers, where the powder charge is compressed and actually pushes the bullet back out of the case a little before crimping. That is really, really rare, and I suggest if you are running into that, to expand a bit on what you are doing. :wink:


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Old 03-18-2013, 21:34   #16
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Not to pick on you, but crimping will not increase bullet pull unless there is insufficient neck tension to start with. Even then, the crimp does almost nothing. The problem is that brass springs back far more than lead, so the crimp is always less after you remove the round from the die. The heavier the crimp, the more you push the lead away from the case mouth.

For an experiment, put a bullet in a fired case and give it whatever crimp you want. See how much force it takes to pull the bullet. Now pull a bullet seated in a sized case w/ no crimp, and see how much force it takes.

Neck tension does the work, the crimp is for removing the flare or finishing the leading edge. I would give a little more importance to the crimp on rough use or tube fed guns, but not for general shooting .
You are exactly right. I have done similar experiments myself. If there is not enough neck tension, taper crimp will not increase bullet pull.
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Old 03-19-2013, 18:39   #17
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Most of my rounds I use a Lee factory crimp after I seat my bullet, so in that case yes you would separate them.
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Old 03-19-2013, 19:26   #18
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I seat and remove the case mouth bell in one step and have not had a problem.
Seems extra work to make it a 2 step process.
Just my nickels worth.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:22   #19
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yes, I think so, and thats how i do it. On a progressive its not biggie.
Same here... separate steps on a progressive.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:03   #20
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On my progressive, I do them as separate steps. It is easier to set up and easier to control.
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