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Old 03-18-2012, 08:09   #1
vaquero aleman
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460 anyone?

I know that this is stating the blatantly obvious, but I feel that I must add this disclaimer to my thread:

In my opinion, under no circumstance, should you convert the original Glock barrel to .460 Rowland! The Glock barrel does not have the proper support for the extremely high pressure .460 Rowland. Use only an aftermarket barrel with a "fully supported chamber". This is plainly stated in the remarks of Johnny Rowland, engineer of the .460 Rowland at 460rowland.com. And it should be well known that even 45 Super can cause a KB in an unsupported Glock barrel.


Well, I finally made the plunge. I ordered some 460 Rowland from Georgia Arms. Even though they are 7 to 10 days behind on shipping, it will come soon enough. I am still waiting on a custom engraved 5.2" 45TH from LWD. I think I will have the 6.61" I already own reamed for 460 and leave the 5.2" for 45 Super. I don't know what to expect from the LWD compensator when it comes to the 460 but I will be finding out. From what I can tell Johny Rowland is using a basic aftermarket stainless barrel for his conversion units, so I don't see why there should be a problem with using the LWD barrel for 460 Rowland.

If it blows up in my hand then some surgeon will just have to prove why he gets paid what he does.

borrowed from "concealco.com":
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Wikipedia excerpt:
There are two key elements to the .460 Rowland concept. The first is a sharp increase in cartridge maximum pressure over the .45 ACP and .45 Super. Maximum Average Pressure is: 45 ACP (21,000 PSI), .45 ACP +P (23,000 PSI), .45 Super (28,000 PSI), .460 Rowland (40,000 PSI). The result of this pressure increase is a potential for 185-grain (12.0 g) bullets to achieve 1,500 ft/s (460 m/s) MV and 230-grain (15 g) bullets to achieve 1,340 ft/s (410 m/s). The second element, in regard to M1911 type autoloaders, is to dampen or reduce the velocity of the slide to a manageable level.
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Old 03-18-2012, 19:11   #2
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What are your goals? Are you hunting with this? Just want it for the uniqueness?

I have a G21 with a slide melted RMR site. I've been toying with the idea of getting a .45-10mm conversion barrel vs. going with .45 super (or even .460 Rowland).

Meanwhile I started reloading and working up some hotter loads. Interesting thing happened when I was out yesterday - when shooting my latest loads (top end of the .45 ACP loadings in 200gn JHP) I realized I didn't want any more recoil. I don't have a chrono, but if the charts are right probably only 940-950fps.

I like to put 50-100 rounds down range at a time minimum. If I go down to a slower powder, I may be able to get a little more speed without much more recoil. But based on what I experienced with this load, 185-200grain JHPs at 1500 fps is not something I'm going to be able to shoot more than a few times before the recoil starts bothering me.

Have you shot .460 Rowland or .45 super before? You might want to try it before putting a lot of money towards conversions... just a thought from someone a little behind you, but on a similar path.
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Old 03-18-2012, 19:57   #3
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My 21 is set up for 45 Super now. I ran a box and a half of BB 185gr 45 Super through both barrels, 6.61" and glock stock and posted my results on the 45 Super thread by flyandscuba. Unfortunately I do not have a chrono so I have to assume that it was what BB said it was. I guess you could say I'm a little power hungry. I had a 20 that I set up with the 6" slide/barrel from LWD and shot a few hundred through it before selling it, compliments of the economy. I really liked the 10mm and I was actually looking for another 20 when I happened to find a 21OD I couldn't pass up. Of course the more I read the more I found out about 45 super and 460 Rowland, and a few paychecks down the road I'm almost ready for the 460. Johnny Rowland, the engineer of the 460, states that properly set up the 460 does not have much more recoil than the 45acp. So I decided to test the waters. I will have two LWD barrels so I figured it wouldn't hurt to try 460 out on one of them. I've got a 22 and 24# Wolff spring/guide rod and the LWD comp and all I need now is the GA Arms I ordered and my LGS to ream the chamber for me, which he said he can do with his 45-70 reamer.


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G21, LWD 6.61" 45TH, LWD 45Comp, Wolff guide rod/22# recoil spring.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:02   #4
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How do you like the compensator? Did you get a lot of blast / flash with it?
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:39   #5
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I could not see any discharge from the comp. I expected to see something, considering the 185gr @ 1300fps I was shooting. But, BB does claim that thier powder eliminates flash; I suppose it's possible. I believe that my next range trip will include some sort of camera to record the side view. I don't have an expensive camcorder so slow mo probably won't be an option for me. Unless I can find some software to convert the video with.

I wasn't overly impressed with the muzzle control of the 45 Super, out of the LWD comp. I'm not sure what to expect with the 460, but I'm definately willing to find out. I don't think that the LWD comp has enough vertical porting, so I may do some modifying on it.
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:13   #6
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There is something that confuses me though. Ace custom 45's, who "trademarked" the 45 Super states that they use a 25# recoil spring and BB suggests the use of a recoil buffer, both for the 45 Super. 460rowland.com states that they use a 24# recoil spring, a 45acp compensator and recommends that a recoil buffer not be used, all for the 460 Rowland. This information would lead me to believe that the 45 Super was a hotter load than the 460 Rowland, which I know is not the case. Quite the opposite. So, I am really not sure what to make of this except that maybe someone is over-stating thier position in order to boost thier sales. I dunno.
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Old 03-20-2012, 08:33   #7
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As I understand it, the Ace Custom set up was originally designed for standard 1911 .45's, many of which were not as robust as more modern firearms. So, the buffer may have been brought over from that.

From what I've read, the buffers don't last very long, and when they wear out they fragment, which can cause jamming. That may be why rowland doesn't recommend them.

Also, The pressures in the 45 super might be higher than the 460 Rrowland, even though the velosity is higher in the Rowland. The super is a standard length case, so smaller volume than the longer 460 case, which would mean more pressure for the same amount of powder. Maybe this has something to do with it?

BTW, How much more recoil did the Super have than a standard 45?
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:44   #8
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As you can see from the Wikipedia excerpt "thier" stated pressures show the 460 well above 45acp, +p, and Super.

Wikipedia:
The .460 Rowland case is approximately 1/16" (.0625 inches (1.59 mm)) longer than a conventional .45 ACP. However, the overall cartridge length of the .460 Rowland is the same as the .45 ACP as the bullet is seated a bit deeper. This means the practical case capacity for both cartridges is identical. Case length for the .45 ACP is 0.898 inches (22.8 mm) and cartridge overall length is 1.275 inches (32.4 mm). Case length for the .460 Rowland is 0.955 inches (24.3 mm) and cartridge overall length is 1.275 inches (32.4 mm). The purpose of the extended case length is to prevent the high pressure .460 Rowland from being chambered in a standard firearm chambered for the low pressure .45 ACP, similar to the relationship between the .357 Magnum and the .38 Special. The overall cartridge length restriction imposed on both cartridges is established by the cartridge length capacity of the M1911 design.[citation needed]
There are two key elements to the .460 Rowland concept. The first is a sharp increase in cartridge maximum pressure over the .45 ACP and .45 Super. Maximum Average Pressure is: 45 ACP (21,000 PSI), .45 ACP +P (23,000 PSI), .45 Super (28,000 PSI), .460 Rowland (40,000 PSI). The result of this pressure increase is a potential for 185-grain (12.0 g) bullets to achieve 1,500 ft/s (460 m/s) MV and 230-grain (15 g) bullets to achieve 1,340 ft/s (410 m/s). The second element, in regard to M1911 type autoloaders, is to dampen or reduce the velocity of the slide to a manageable level.

The recoil of the Super was quite snappy but when I concentrated on what I was doing it was controllable. I remember my G20 imparting quite a stinging sensation in my hand, where I did not experience that with the 45 Super. It is probably in line with the hot 10mm loads, which is understandable, considering it's ballistics are very similar to the 10mm.

And I can personally attest to the fact that the recoil buffers don't seem to hold up:
The 21 Club

This one started splitting after about 150 rounds, 45acp and Super. Wilson Combat advertised life expectancy is 1000 rounds.
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Old 03-22-2012, 16:50   #9
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I have also ordered a 45acp comp from EFK because I just don't feel that the LWD comp has enough vertical porting. And the EFK comp just happens to be shaped like the Glock slide. Boy am I going to have a hand full when I get this thing put together!
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:27   #10
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I received the GA Arms 460 Rowland, it is 1300fps, not 1350fps and after I phoned them they corrected thier listing. But that is still pretty hot for a 230gr GDHP. And not bad for GA Arms considering they load below the original cartridge specifications anyway.
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:41   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaquero aleman View Post
I received the GA Arms 460 Rowland, it is 1300fps, not 1350fps and after I phoned them they corrected thier listing. But that is still pretty hot for a 230gr GDHP. And not bad for GA Arms considering they load below the original levels anyway.
Temperature, altitude, or a chronograph being slightly out of tune could be the cause of a 50fps difference.

And yea, 1300fps is very zippy in an pistol shooting 230gr.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:41   #12
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I apologize for not being clear. 1300fps was on the GA Arms ammo package label. When I stop spending money on the gun then maybe I can spend some on a chrony. And, unfortunately, I am still waiting for the barrel so I haven't had the opportunity to shoot any of the 460 yet. I am hoping it will be as smooth as 460rowland.com shows it to be. His 1911, 460 conversion, makes it look like he's shooting 9mm.
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Old 03-25-2012, 12:52   #13
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GA Arms 230gr 460 Rowland Speer Unicore, BB 185gr 45 Super JHP:
The 21 Club
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GA Arms 230gr 460 Rowland Speer Unicore, GA Arms 180gr 10mm FMJ:
The 21 Club

Double Tap Ammo has a 40 Super load "listed" as a 180gr Nosler @ 1450fps from a 6" barrel. I have learned from this and other websites to take Double Tap with a grain of salt. The 40 Super however is a very impressive round, and the potential is noteable. That being said, Georgia Arms, who I trust very much, has a 460 Rowland load listed as a 185gr Speer Unicore @ 1400fps (defensive load) from a 5" barrel. I feel that the fact that this is a 45 caliber round is more than sufficient to help me with my decision to go the "460 Rowland" route. Most people think that either round is excessive when it comes to "defense" rounds. Granted, it does give me pause when I consider that defending myself or loved ones with the 460 Rowland may cause innocent bystanders some injury. I still feel that, as apposed to getting another 10mm pistol or going with the 40 Super conversion, that 460 Rowland with a "defensive loading" is for me. After all, wouldn't a 45 caliber round be stopped by the body quicker than a 40 caliber round? And, I get to use my G21 with 13rd mags instead of buying some great big "jack hammer" that only holds 6rds.
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:31   #14
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I am ready to give this thing a work-out. I've already installed the 24# spring, which is ok considering I keep it loaded with Buffalo Bore 45 Super 185gr JHP @ 1300fps.

.460 Rowland(eventually)
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Old 04-06-2012, 08:26   #15
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I spoke with "one of the guys" from Georgia Arms this morning, and asked him about the .460 Rowland. He told me that they use a 1911 with a kit they got from Clark Custom with a 5" barrel for all of thier .460's velocity ratings. He also reassured me that the 185gr Nosler JHP @ 1550fps rating was correct, and to quote "it is a handfull".
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:02   #16
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Since I can't shoot the .460 ammo out of the barrel that I still don't have, I found a different way to shoot it:

From Villa Rica GA to my door, 50 round package = $50.

.460 Rowland(.451 aka 45 caliber) 230grains, Speer Unicore Gold Dot Hollow Point bullet, 1300 feet per second, 863.3 foot pounds of muzzle energy from a 5" barrel. Fired from a G21, XD or 1911(select models).


The 21 Club


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.460 loaded into my G21 mag.
The 21 Club

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Old 04-09-2012, 08:27   #17
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I love the look of those bullets.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:40   #18
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The 21 Club

Don't hold me to it, but a little birdy, from LWD, told me that a new offering is on the table. It is possible that very soon barrels chambered for .460 Rowland will be available. Hopefully there won't be any legal snags and all of the technical stuff will be worked out, then somebody will have to start a new club.
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Old 04-30-2012, 06:16   #19
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The 21 Club

Got my barrel, but LWD told me that they could not ream the chamber, bummer.

So I ordered this:
The 21 Club
45 ACP pistol chamber reamer from Brownells, for $78 to my door, we shall see...
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:53   #20
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That is one shinny compensator. It needs to be dirtied up a little. :-)
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