Home Invasion...by the Police

jdavionic · 03-20-2012, 19:18

Edited per Russ' suggestion:

In the case below, the police were actually LEOs. In a case in ATL, police entered a home of an elderly woman and the results were tragic. Yet we also have cases where individuals are posing as police to gain entry into your home and commit crimes. This puts armed citizens in a challenging position.

http://pennrecord.com/news/city-and-...n-with-autism/

With home invaders posing as law enforcement more and more often, what are you prepared to do if you question the validity and legitimacy of a person or persons at your door in uniform?

P.S. I created a separate thread for the civil rights discussion pertaining to the posted article over here:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...0#post18738330

kensteele · 03-20-2012, 21:10

Don't open your door for police. If you didn't do anything wrong, they can call you on the phone or send you a letter. If you have to, show up at their office with your lawyer.

Warp · 03-20-2012, 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensteele

Don't open your door for police. If you didn't do anything wrong, they can call you on the phone or send you a letter. If you have to, show up at their office with your lawyer.

You do what you want, I'll do what I want.

**RussP** · 03-21-2012, 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdavionic

I expect this one will not end well for the officers. You would think the lessons on Atlanta would still be fresh on the minds of police officers.

If someone in the home was armed, what do you think they would instinctively do in this situation?
http://pennrecord.com/news/city-and-...n-with-autism/

This seems to be more a Civil Liberties Issues topic and discussion than a Carry Issues topic.

Someone convince me otherwise. I'm going to move it to Civil Liberties Issues unless a very persuasive argument not to is made.

If it stays here, you'll miss out on the really interesting, really juicy back stories about those involved.

jdavionic · 03-21-2012, 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussP

This seems to be more a Civil Liberties Issues topic and discussion than a Carry Issues topic.

Someone convince me otherwise. I'm going to move it to Civil Liberties Issues unless a very persuasive argument not to is made.

If it stays here, you'll miss out on the really interesting, really juicy back stories about those involved.

I didn't know where this post would go. We have had home invasions in my state where the BGs have presented themselves at the door as police, when they were not. Hence the question in my OP:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdavionic

If someone in the home was armed, what do you think they would instinctively do in this situation?

So if you have 'real police' showing up and forcing entry (either by mistake - like ATL, or perhaps due to some other reason related to this case), it makes it more challenging for the armed homeowner to know how to respond.

However the thread hasn't really gone down that path, which is fine too.

**RussP** · 03-21-2012, 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdavionic

I didn't know where this post would go. We have had home invasions in my state where the BGs have presented themselves at the door as police, when they were not. Hence the question in my OP:

So if you have 'real police' showing up and forcing entry (either by mistake - like ATL, or perhaps due to some other reason related to this case), it makes it more challenging for the armed homeowner to know how to respond.

However the thread hasn't really gone down that path, which is fine too.

What do you want to discuss?

You link to a story about egregious behavior by a couple of cops against a special needs person. Do you want to discuss that story? Everyone is reacting to the story and not your question.

Your question, "If someone in the home was armed, what do you think they would instinctively do in this situation?", is itself limiting responses when you interject, "...in this situation."

A better question might be, "With home invaders posing as law enforcement more and more often, what are you prepared to do if you question the validity and legitimacy of a person or persons at your door in uniform?", if that's what you want to discuss.

There are two topics: The behavior of the officers in the linked story, and yes, there may be/is more to the two officer's histories than is in that article - that's one topic. The other is what I set out in my question.

I'd suggest amending your original post here to narrow the discussion to the carry issue, and start a new thread in Civil Liberties Issues about the article.

jdavionic · 03-21-2012, 17:52

Maine home invasion by fake DEA...
http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/l...ke-dea-agents/

So you have banging on the door, you hear "Police, search warrant!", your armed with your wife and kids,...what next?

kensteele · 03-21-2012, 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdavionic

Maine home invasion by fake DEA...
http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/l...ke-dea-agents/

So you have banging on the door, you hear "Police, search warrant!", your armed with your wife and kids,...what next?

Dial 911.

rockapede · 03-21-2012, 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp

You do what you want, I'll do what I want.

And what is it you want to do?

jdavionic · 03-21-2012, 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensteele

Dial 911.

That was my thought. Tell them that you or better yet your wife/gf are on the phone with 911 dispatch and will let them in when you are assured they are legit. What I don't know is whether real police would stand down.

Bruce M · 03-21-2012, 18:46

In any of several police impersonation home invasions that I have had some familiarity with, the victim(s) had a great description of the event and had excellent detailed descriptions of the subjects sometimes including seemingly credible information as to their identities and/or locations and yet seemed to have essentially no idea what was taken from them.

rockapede · 03-21-2012, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce M

In any of several police impersonation home invasions that I have had some familiarity with, the victim(s) had a great description of the event and had excellent detailed descriptions of the subjects sometimes including seemingly credible information as to their identities and/or locations and yet seemed to have essentially no idea what was taken from them.

Well hey, that's not just police impersonation home invasions, that's home invasions on the average. I mean, who wants to tell the cops that you know the person who robbed you because you're both dopers and that they stole your dope?

jdavionic · 03-21-2012, 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockapede

Well hey, that's not just police impersonation home invasions, that's home invasions on the average. I mean, who wants to tell the cops that you know the person who robbed you because you're both dopers and that they stole your dope?

I used to believe that was the case. However I had an opportunity to serve on my county Grand Jury and heard 500-600 cases in a 6 month period.

In that period, yes...we heard cases where the "victim" was involved in drugs. We also heard cases where the victim was targeted because they were illegal immigrants.

However we also heard cases where the victims were not criminals. An elderly couple that were invaded by men with POLICE on their shirts, etc...who were subsequently restrained with nylon ties, and then robbed. I could give other examples. However the point is that I believe these tactics have been expanded beyond exclusively targeting criminals.

rockapede · 03-21-2012, 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdavionic

I used to believe that was the case. However I had an opportunity to serve on my county Grand Jury and heard 500-600 cases in a 6 month period.

In that period, yes...we heard cases where the "victim" was involved in drugs. We also heard cases where the victim was targeted because they were illegal immigrants.

However we also heard cases where the victims were not criminals. An elderly couple that were invaded by men with POLICE on their shirts, etc...who were subsequently restrained with nylon ties, and then robbed. I could give other examples. However the point is that I believe these tactics have been expanded beyond exclusively targeting criminals.

Oh, don't misunderstand me. I know home invasions happen to good people too (heck, I prepare myself for that very possibility). I was just saying that on the average (at least local to me) the parties involved are dopers.

jdavionic · 03-21-2012, 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockapede

Oh, don't misunderstand me. I know home invasions happen to good people too (heck, I prepare myself for that very possibility). I was just saying that on the average (at least local to me) the parties involved are dopers.

Understand. But back on the question at hand,
With home invaders posing as law enforcement more and more often, what are you prepared to do if you question the validity and legitimacy of a person or persons at your door in uniform?

rockapede · 03-21-2012, 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdavionic

Understand. But back on the question at hand,
With home invaders posing as law enforcement more and more often, what are you prepared to do if you question the validity and legitimacy of a person or persons at your door in uniform?

I'll admit I've got a bit of an advantage being a LEO in a rural area and knowing all the others. However, I second the notion of calling 911 to verify identity. The same holds true for traffic stops.

jdavionic · 03-21-2012, 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockapede

I'll admit I've got a bit of an advantage being a LEO in a rural area and knowing all the others. However, I second the notion of calling 911 to verify identity. The same holds true for traffic stops.

Would LEOs be tolerant of such an action? If you're serving a warrant, bang on the door, get told that resident is calling 911, would the police stand down and wait?

rockapede · 03-21-2012, 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdavionic

Would LEOs be tolerant of such an action? If you're serving a warrant, bang on the door, get told that resident is calling 911, would the police stand down and wait?

If my dispatchers informed me the resident was on the phone verifying my identity, I'd ask them to do so and advise me immediately when it was done. Homeowner's not getting much time after that.

Of course, if I hear a toilet flushing repeatedly, all bets are off.

Warp · 03-21-2012, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockapede

And what is it you want to do?

Something other than "never talk to the police" or "never open your door for police" or any other such nonesense.

Mister_Beefy · 03-21-2012, 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp

Something other than "never talk to the police" or "never open your door for police" or any other such nonesense.

can you be any more specific and less obtuse?

G31 · 03-21-2012, 21:44

I would call to verify it was legit. I might look out windows to see if any marked cars are present, but I wouldn't waste too much time on it, because sooner or later, someone is coming in.

I know it happens, but it is very hard for me to think that a warrant will be served on the wrong house. When I worked for the city, our narcotics warrants were extremely detailed...down to the color, rough size, and location of the address numbers on the house. They would be written as to describe the location to a person who has never been there, and allow them to find it easily. Not only that, but we had numerous controlled transactions at the location before considering the warrant. It is not an easy, fly-by-night process.

An example of something you might see on a warrant would be "single-family dwelling, located at 123 Main St., approx. 50 feet from the intersection of 2nd Ave. S. on the SE corner, with beige exterior painted stucco walls, with black asphalt shingle roof, with white picket fence approx 3 feet high around the front porch, with front porch painted white, with two car garage..."

I guess I'd be more worried in a neighborhood of cookie-cutter homes that all look exactly alike, but even then, I'd not be too worried.

Warp · 03-21-2012, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister_Beefy

can you be any more specific and less obtuse?

A specific response/statement requires a specific scenario.

Chances are if a couple of uniformed local officers knock on my door I will answer it.

But then I don't live in the city.

rockapede · 03-22-2012, 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp

Something other than "never talk to the police" or "never open your door for police" or any other such nonesense.

10-4. I originally thought you meant something else, which seemed strange given your avatar. I totally agree, by the way.

***series1811*** · 03-24-2012, 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensteele

Don't open your door for police. If you didn't do anything wrong, they can call you on the phone or send you a letter. If you have to, show up at their office with your lawyer.

I'd love to hear the story of the day your cornflakes got peed in. It must be a doozy.

DennisH · 03-25-2012, 06:46

I was staying in a two-story motel in Bon Terre, MO about 10 years ago. At 2am there's a pounding at the door with the shout "Bon Terre police! Open up!" After I told him through the door that I wasn't opening until I saw that he was a uniformed officer, I let him in. I asked him politely what the problem was. He was standing there with the hotel owner and said they wanted to investigate a "domestic violence" situation. I asked him what room they were looking for. "Room 14! Now step aside!" Then I told him to look at the door. Room 48. Hmmmmm. I don't know who was the bigger moron, the cop or the owner of the hotel who didn't even know what room was where!!