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Old 04-05-2012, 17:02   #26
bigmoney890
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Bushmaster & Remington don't supply to the military.

The military doesnt use the ACR?
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:02   #27
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And FWIW we are just trying to help you out. Many of us have been there and some of us have bought only to regret. I'll help anyone with advice that isn't going to name call with AR-Snobbery comments. Truth is there is quality and then there is less-than-quality and it is very apparent especially in the higher round counts and service life of the firearm and with the price difference of a couple hundred bucks right now there really is no reason to go with the lower grade weapon.

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Old 04-05-2012, 17:04   #28
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The military doesnt use the ACR?
Nope. SCAR-17s are the only "new" weapon still on order with SOCOM. The military even had to drop contracts on the SCAR-16 due to financial constraints.

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Old 04-05-2012, 17:08   #29
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I have no first hand knowledge but have just recently started my first AR build(assembly) after doing a lot of research and combing through these forums for a couple of months also.

The reason I did not look at a DPMS/Olympic/Bushmaster/etc. was the general consensus among objective posters was that these companies are too inconsistent in their quality control. The chances of getting a lemon seem to but much higher.

As many have recommended, it seems to be for a lower cost entry level AR that has a much better chance of being a good quality rifle, to go with a S&W Sport or Palmetto State Armory(PSA).

I believe the S&W have a lifetime warranty also and people that had problems were pleased with S&W's diligence in fixing their issues.

This is what I've observed. Take it for what you will.

I narrowed my choices down to buying a S&W Sport or building one on a PSA lower. I chose to build for the fun of it.

By the way, kudos to you for respecting and seeking your parents opinion.



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Old 04-05-2012, 17:08   #30
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And FWIW we are just trying to help you out. Many of us have been there and some of us have bought only to regret. I'll help anyone with advice that isn't going to name call with AR-Snobbery comments. Truth is there is quality and then there is less-than-quality and it is very apparent especially in the higher round counts and service life of the firearm and with the price difference of a couple hundred bucks right now there really is no reason to go with the lower grade weapon.

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Originally Posted by Javelin View Post
Nope. SCAR-17s are the only "new" weapon still on order with SOCOM. The military even had to drop contracts on the SCAR-16 due to financial constraints.

And i appreciate any help that anyone is willing to share, as long it is as non-biased as possible

And I was unaware of that fact with the Scars. It's too hard to keep up with all of the stuff that the military does!
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:11   #31
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bigmoney890

Keep in mind some here giving you their opinions/advice are LEO,
active or retired military. I've been shooting the M16/AR15 since 1985.
There is a crap load of experince here. As an old fart to a young 'en
LISTEN to those whom have more experience than you do.
Personally, I could care less, if you want a DPMS, great, buy one.
However it's like this, a good DPMS is great, but a bad one is a PITA!

Good luck with your search for your first AR......
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:11   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_b View Post
The reason I did not look at a DPMS/Olympic/Bushmaster/etc. was the general consensus among objective posters was that these companies are too inconsistent in their quality control. The chances of getting a lemon seem to but much higher.


By the way, kudos to you for respecting and seeking your parents opinion.



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That makes a lot more sense as to why I cannot find a consistent yes or no on these types or rifles, and thanks for your input.

And what can I say, I'm a military brat raised to respect my elders. A quality that is lacking in todays times!
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:15   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr View Post
bigmoney890

Keep in mind some here giving you their opinions/advice are LEO,
active or retired military. I've been shooting the M16/AR15 since 1985.
There is a crap load of experince here. As an old fart to a young 'en
LISTEN to those whom have more experience than you do.
Personally, I could care less, if you want a DPMS, great, buy one.
However it's like this, a good DPMS is great, but a bad one is a PITA!

Good luck with your search for your first AR......

And again, thanks for you're input! Im starting to realize that DPMS generally makes a good product. And it will probably suit my needs just fine, IF i get one that works. So I will be searching other options out there.

Like i previously state, I would love to go with the Spikes Tactical Entry carbine. Anyone have opinions on it?!
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:19   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmoney890 View Post
And again, thanks for you're input! Im starting to realize that DPMS generally makes a good product. And it will probably suit my needs just fine, IF i get one that works. So I will be searching other options out there.

Like i previously state, I would love to go with the Spikes Tactical Entry carbine. Anyone have opinions on it?!
I just can't take the company seriously. I guess because they make $40 fake suppressors.

http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/...-can-p-44.html

They are probably a good company but I don't do fake.

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Old 04-05-2012, 17:34   #35
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I just can't take the company seriously. I guess because they make $40 fake suppressors.

http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/...-can-p-44.html

They are probably a good company but I don't do fake.

Ha that's understandable, but everyone around here are Spike's Fanboys. Plus I like all of their 'custom' lower receivers.
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:37   #36
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Ha that's understandable, but everyone around here are Spike's Fanboys. Plus I like all of their 'custom' lower receivers.
I like their roll marks on their receivers too. Always been a SpiderCo fan.

POF makes an even better roll mark IMHO.

Black Rifle Forum

Noveske GENII monolithic lowers are also really neat with the flared magwell

Black Rifle Forum
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Last edited by Javelin; 04-05-2012 at 17:40..
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:42   #37
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Im a sucker for the pirate lower

http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/...ngs-p-564.html
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:43   #38
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Then I suggest grabbing one, buy a DD parts kit and get a quality complete upper (DD, BCM, LMT, etc) and put it together yourself with a Youtube video.

Takes like an hour tops. Then your quality rifle will be truly yours exactly as you want it.

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Old 04-05-2012, 17:44   #39
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Indeed, I also looked at a used Noveske yesterday, Cerakote in Coyote tan with a troy industries alpa rail. Expensive as hell though.

And back to original topic, Anyone want to shed light on Wolf as a strictly range ammo with a strictly range gun?
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:46   #40
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Then I suggest grabbing one, buy a DD parts kit and get a quality complete upper (DD, BCM, LMT, etc) and put it together yourself with a Youtube video.

Takes like an hour tops. Then your quality rifle will be truly yours exactly as you want it.


That's looking more and more like the route i'll go
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:46   #41
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Indeed, I also looked at a used Noveske yesterday, Cerakote in Coyote tan with a troy industries alpa rail. Expensive as hell though.

And back to original topic, Anyone want to shed light on Wolf as a strictly range ammo with a strictly range gun?
Most quality firearms will shoot Wolf ammo.

The stuff is dirty so you got to clean your gun after each shoot and always before shooting brass casings again as the crud in the chamber builds up fast and you are likely to get a stuck casing which can be a real PITA.

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Old 04-05-2012, 17:47   #42
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I always thought Spikes roll mark was Darth Vader!

Black Rifle Forum
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:48   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr View Post
I always thought Spikes roll mark was Darth Vader!

Black Rifle Forum


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Last edited by Javelin; 04-05-2012 at 17:55..
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:49   #44
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Most quality firearms will shoot Wolf ammo.

The stuff is dirty so you got to clean your gun after each shoot and always before shooting brass casings again as the crud in the chamber builds up fast and you are likely to get a stuck casing which can be a real PITA.

Good to know. For $220 for a case, you cant beat it, as long as it shoots.

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I always thought Spikes roll mark was Darth Vader!

Black Rifle Forum
It does have a resemblance
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:51   #45
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Good to know. For $220 for a case, you cant beat it, as long as it shoots.
And if it FTF then you can practice your malfunction drills. Its really a win-win IMO.

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Old 04-05-2012, 17:54   #46
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And if it FTF then you can practice your malfunction drills. Its really a win-win IMO.

Exactly! Way to look on the bright side!
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Old 04-05-2012, 19:06   #47
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Thanks for the input. So simply as an AR for learning to shoot and putting 5000+ rounds down range and getting 100% comfortable with, you would stay away from this? I dont want to spend the extra money on a higher quality AR at this time and put a ton of rounds through it just learning how to shoot. Seems like a bit of a waste to buy a nice riffle and dump an excessive amount of cheap surplus ammo through it in the name of learning.
There is nothing that says you have to learn on a high-end custom rifle, but for your money you can do better than DPMS - regardless of the use of the rifle. PSA would fit what you need very nicely. It won't break the bank, and PSA typically has a better build quality than DPMS. Spikes is a good choice for a budget rifle, also.

As for ammo, wolf is fine for plinking. It is usually under-powered though, so you may have to tinker with the buffer weight (possibly drop to a carbine buffer). Just be aware that it (wolf) is very dirty, so clean often and keep it lubed up. Also note that you generally won't get top notch accuracy out of wolf either.

Oh, and completely off-topic. The Navy IDIQ for SCAR rifles includes the 16, so contrary to popular belief, the 16 isn't dead, but they will most likely only be ordered to replace existing ones if needed.

One last useful tidbit of information. There is a great wealth of knowledge compiled largely by professionals in the stickies on www.m4carbine.net. In addition, the book "Green Eyes, Black Rifles" by Kyle Lamb is well worth owning.
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Old 04-05-2012, 20:01   #48
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I build on what WayaX has said, M4Carbine.Net is a really great place for information. The Word Doc. I mentioned above got its start on that web site. Also take a look at "The Chart" which was put together by the great Tactical Yellow Visor himself. (www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/)

The main difference between the top tier manufacturers, that do it right, and all the rest like DPMS and Bushmaster is that they cut corners on the materials used. They use softer and cheaper steel in the barrel and in the bolt carrier. They also don't MPI test their barrels, bolt carriers, or bolts. The list of short cuts is long and in the end it only make for a rifle that will not stand up to hard use. Why spend $700 on a plinker, when you can buy a hard use AR15 like a Colt LE6920 for $1100?



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Old 04-05-2012, 20:43   #49
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I'm sure I am echoing several other people at this point when I say there are FAR better rifles on the market than a DPMS for the same or similar pricing. Track down a S&W Sport, or order a Palmetto rifle. If you really want to get to know the workings of the rifle, order a stripped lower from Palmetto, order a parts kit (separate order if you buy from PSA, due to excise taxes) and a complete upper you are satisfied with. Get a quality bolt carrier group that has been both high pressure tested and magnetic particle inspected, and put it all together yourself.

Either one of those routes can give you a drastically better rifle for probably about the same as what you are going to spend on an Oracle.

Also, OP, I notice you are located in Sanford. I would suggest taking a day to locate Shooters Supply on Bragg Blvd. in Fayetteville and pay them a visit. When you go in there, ask for John. Even if you don't have him build an AR for you, he will help you out and make sure you get something solid. If you end up getting a DPMS anyway, take it to him when something goes wrong. If you want more info, shoot me a PM, and I'll gladly tell you more. Edit to add: It's well worth the trip over there. Hell, I've driven from Florida back to NC just to get John to do a build for me, because he is the only person I trust to do the work when I need something done right.

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Old 04-05-2012, 20:48   #50
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The military doesnt use the ACR?

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Nope. SCAR-17s are the only "new" weapon still on order with SOCOM. The military even had to drop contracts on the SCAR-16 due to financial constraints.

To be more accurate, the -16 was dropped because it didn't offer enough improvement over the M4 to be worth the money - something I completely agree with.
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