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Old 04-05-2012, 17:46   #41
Javelin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmoney890 View Post
Indeed, I also looked at a used Noveske yesterday, Cerakote in Coyote tan with a troy industries alpa rail. Expensive as hell though.

And back to original topic, Anyone want to shed light on Wolf as a strictly range ammo with a strictly range gun?
Most quality firearms will shoot Wolf ammo.

The stuff is dirty so you got to clean your gun after each shoot and always before shooting brass casings again as the crud in the chamber builds up fast and you are likely to get a stuck casing which can be a real PITA.

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Old 04-05-2012, 17:47   #42
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I always thought Spikes roll mark was Darth Vader!

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Old 04-05-2012, 17:48   #43
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I always thought Spikes roll mark was Darth Vader!

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Old 04-05-2012, 17:49   #44
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Most quality firearms will shoot Wolf ammo.

The stuff is dirty so you got to clean your gun after each shoot and always before shooting brass casings again as the crud in the chamber builds up fast and you are likely to get a stuck casing which can be a real PITA.

Good to know. For $220 for a case, you cant beat it, as long as it shoots.

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I always thought Spikes roll mark was Darth Vader!

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It does have a resemblance
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Old 04-05-2012, 17:51   #45
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Good to know. For $220 for a case, you cant beat it, as long as it shoots.
And if it FTF then you can practice your malfunction drills. Its really a win-win IMO.

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Old 04-05-2012, 17:54   #46
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And if it FTF then you can practice your malfunction drills. Its really a win-win IMO.

Exactly! Way to look on the bright side!
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Old 04-05-2012, 19:06   #47
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Thanks for the input. So simply as an AR for learning to shoot and putting 5000+ rounds down range and getting 100% comfortable with, you would stay away from this? I dont want to spend the extra money on a higher quality AR at this time and put a ton of rounds through it just learning how to shoot. Seems like a bit of a waste to buy a nice riffle and dump an excessive amount of cheap surplus ammo through it in the name of learning.
There is nothing that says you have to learn on a high-end custom rifle, but for your money you can do better than DPMS - regardless of the use of the rifle. PSA would fit what you need very nicely. It won't break the bank, and PSA typically has a better build quality than DPMS. Spikes is a good choice for a budget rifle, also.

As for ammo, wolf is fine for plinking. It is usually under-powered though, so you may have to tinker with the buffer weight (possibly drop to a carbine buffer). Just be aware that it (wolf) is very dirty, so clean often and keep it lubed up. Also note that you generally won't get top notch accuracy out of wolf either.

Oh, and completely off-topic. The Navy IDIQ for SCAR rifles includes the 16, so contrary to popular belief, the 16 isn't dead, but they will most likely only be ordered to replace existing ones if needed.

One last useful tidbit of information. There is a great wealth of knowledge compiled largely by professionals in the stickies on www.m4carbine.net. In addition, the book "Green Eyes, Black Rifles" by Kyle Lamb is well worth owning.
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Old 04-05-2012, 20:01   #48
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I build on what WayaX has said, M4Carbine.Net is a really great place for information. The Word Doc. I mentioned above got its start on that web site. Also take a look at "The Chart" which was put together by the great Tactical Yellow Visor himself. (www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/)

The main difference between the top tier manufacturers, that do it right, and all the rest like DPMS and Bushmaster is that they cut corners on the materials used. They use softer and cheaper steel in the barrel and in the bolt carrier. They also don't MPI test their barrels, bolt carriers, or bolts. The list of short cuts is long and in the end it only make for a rifle that will not stand up to hard use. Why spend $700 on a plinker, when you can buy a hard use AR15 like a Colt LE6920 for $1100?



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Old 04-05-2012, 20:43   #49
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I'm sure I am echoing several other people at this point when I say there are FAR better rifles on the market than a DPMS for the same or similar pricing. Track down a S&W Sport, or order a Palmetto rifle. If you really want to get to know the workings of the rifle, order a stripped lower from Palmetto, order a parts kit (separate order if you buy from PSA, due to excise taxes) and a complete upper you are satisfied with. Get a quality bolt carrier group that has been both high pressure tested and magnetic particle inspected, and put it all together yourself.

Either one of those routes can give you a drastically better rifle for probably about the same as what you are going to spend on an Oracle.

Also, OP, I notice you are located in Sanford. I would suggest taking a day to locate Shooters Supply on Bragg Blvd. in Fayetteville and pay them a visit. When you go in there, ask for John. Even if you don't have him build an AR for you, he will help you out and make sure you get something solid. If you end up getting a DPMS anyway, take it to him when something goes wrong. If you want more info, shoot me a PM, and I'll gladly tell you more. Edit to add: It's well worth the trip over there. Hell, I've driven from Florida back to NC just to get John to do a build for me, because he is the only person I trust to do the work when I need something done right.

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Old 04-05-2012, 20:48   #50
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The military doesnt use the ACR?

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Nope. SCAR-17s are the only "new" weapon still on order with SOCOM. The military even had to drop contracts on the SCAR-16 due to financial constraints.

To be more accurate, the -16 was dropped because it didn't offer enough improvement over the M4 to be worth the money - something I completely agree with.
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Old 04-05-2012, 20:59   #51
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WoodenPlank brings up a great point. When building you really get know the inner workings of the rifle, paricularly the fire control group. And its my opinion that in the 6-900 dollar range you get a little more for your money when you build.
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Old 04-05-2012, 22:16   #52
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Also with building a rifle, you choose what things you want on it before you pay for something included that you aren't gonna use. For a bare bones AR the $965 Colts are hard to beat. With shipping and the FFL fee it's possible to slide in under $1000. I've shot DPMS as my first AR expierence. It actually turned me against the whole platform. I thought is felt extra cheap, and wasn't as accurate as ARs were talked up to be. It wasn't until I decided to try it again and built a Double Star that got me liking ARs again. Now I have stepped up to a Spikes & LMT gun I assembled myself.
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Old 04-05-2012, 23:37   #53
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Don't stress too much. Every AR owner (or gun owner, for that matter) is going to want to customize his/her rig. The only thing that counts as a the actual firearm is the lower reciever (i.e. the part with the serial number roll-marked onto the side of it). Everything else can be swapped-out with parts purchased on the internet and shipped straight to your home. ARs are so simple even a novice gunsmith can swap out the lower parts groups, barrel, etc. The ony two parts of your firearm that really matter are the BCG (bolt-carrier group) and the barrel. Everything else is pretty hard to screw-up. Buy whatever fits your price point....shoot the hell out of it, and if it ever gives you trouble you can always upgrade/customize it at a later date.

I have a piece-of-crap frankenstein M4gery built with many of the lowest cost parts I could find. The only thing I did not skimp-on was the full-auto BCG I purchased from BCM (Bravo Company Mnfg). I've gotten three solid years out of this rifle with not a single issue and put 400 rounds through it each month like clock-work. After nearly 15,000 rounds off the cheapest Federal 5.56 ammo I can find and and only cleaning her maybe 4 times each year..... she still runs like a champ. I have just as much fun at the range with my buddies and their "brand-name" rigs.

Don't stress. Enjoy your weapon! And don't let any snob with his Colt or DD look down on you. At least you ain't shooting no commy AK!!! Lol. Just messing with all my AK-47 buddies out there.

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Old 04-05-2012, 23:39   #54
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Don't stress too much. Every AR owner (or gun owner, for that matter) is going to want to customize his/her rig. The only thing that counts as a the actual firearm is the lower reciever (i.e. the part with the serial number roll-marked onto the side of it). Everything else can be swapped-out with parts purchased on the internet and shipped straight to your home. ARs are so simple even a novice gunsmith can swap out the lower parts groups, barrel, etc. The ony two parts of your firearm that really matter are the BCG (bolt-carrier group) and the barrel. Everything else is pretty hard to screw-up. Buy whatever fits your price point....shoot the hell out of it, and if it ever gives you trouble you can always upgrade/customize it at a later date.

I have a piece-of-crap frankenstein M4gery built with many of the lowest cost parts I could find. The only thing I did not skimp-on was the full-auto BCG I purchased from BCM (Bravo Company Mnfg). I've gotten three solid years out of this rifle with not a single issue and put 400 rounds through it each month like clock-work. After nearly 15,000 rounds off the cheapest Federal 5.56 ammo I can find and and only cleaning her maybe 4 times each year..... she still runs like a champ. I have just as much fun at the range with my buddies and their "brand-name" rigs.

Don't stress. Enjoy your weapon! And don't let any snob with his Colt or DD look down on you. At least you ain't shooting no commy AK!!! Lol. Just messing with all my AK-47 buddies out there.

- Mike
The problem is that if you buy a cheap AR and have to upgrade parts to get it running reliably (or when the cheap parts break or wear out), you end up spending as much (or more) than if you had bought a quality rifle to begin with.
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Old 04-05-2012, 23:44   #55
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This is where I differ with the majority of posters. I don't think your first AR should be home-built - even the lower. I think you should learn what a proper functioning rifle is before trying to build one.

Of course, if you stick to just building the lower, you don't risk too much, maybe a crooked receiver extension, unstaked, or under-torqued castle nut, and some tool marks on the lower.
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Old 04-05-2012, 23:45   #56
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The problem is that if you buy a cheap AR and have to upgrade parts to get it running reliably (or when the cheap parts break or wear out), you end up spending as much (or more) than if you had bought a quality rifle to begin with.


They become can money pits too fast.

If you buy quality once you only pay once and enjoy it for a lifetime.

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Old 04-06-2012, 00:20   #57
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I'd recommend Colt or an Armalite midlength, both can be had for under 1000.
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Old 04-06-2012, 15:07   #58
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Honestly there are better guns to be had for the money, but if he gets a DPMS and it jams and breaks on the range who cares? He can just replace any broken parts/clear malfunctions and keep going. I'd definitely make sure the DPMS has a forward assist... you'll need it.
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Old 04-06-2012, 15:28   #59
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Why buy something with the likelyhood of it breaking?!
Makes no sense to me, not to mention the waste of money & time.
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Old 04-06-2012, 21:43   #60
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I was referring to malfunctions/failures that people that own(ed) DPMS have had. And if anyone can offer a non-biased opinion as to any problems that this rifle has had then feel free to respond. Not a few rifles here and there, but a broad estimate of the Oracle line. As far as wolf ammo, i suspect that no one would recommend it, but again, anyone who wants to chime in on a reason that it shouldn't be used for simple range time, I would love to hear why. No sarcasm or smartass-ness intended folks, i'm being sincere
Cross your fingers and hope you got one with a good chamber that won't stick cases in it when it has more than 100 rounds fired through it.
Getting a BCM extractor upgrade kit will help. Get the carrier key staked, buy a spare bolt for when the stock one brakes. Wolf ammo and DPMS definately don't mix seen a lot of problems with that combination. I understand money is tight in these ecomonic times. But trust me you will spend more in the long run with a DPMS vs say a Bravo Company, Daniel Defense, Colt etc gun.
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