[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by Bren

Why? We see things that happen by "chance" every day, unless you thing god is personally working the lottery and roulette wheels. We have never seen the first shred of evidence for god. Therefore, chance is obviously more likely. However, only very tiny parts of the history of the universse would be chance - such as the right elements getting together in the right conditions to form amino acids or various compounds. Then again, their are only so many elements, so I can comprehend that chance event. Things like evolution are not claimed to be random chance and christians often intentionally or unintentionally misrepresent that as the claim of evolution (i.e., that ridiculous ID analogy about the watch that suddenly appears in its present form by random chance, or whatever)

Problem is, you WANT to believe in god, real or not, and "chance" on the scale that is involved in the history of the unverse, or even just this planet, is too big for your mind to comprehend. Therefore, "god" seems more likely to you, just like Zeus would to an ancient Greek or the water beetle that made the earth to a Cherokee 200 years ago.

I would argue you DO NOT want to believe in God either because of the personal moral ramifications, or someone has misrepresnted His character to you, and you have accepted the distorted image that has been portrayed.

[Animal Mother]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

You have not corrected the reocrd of what is actually said, so you cannot refute what I have said, or are you unwilling to?

You're the one claiming that science takes that position. I'm waiting for you to validate that assertion.

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by Animal Mother

You're the one claiming that science takes that position. I'm waiting for you to validate that assertion.

Your inability to defend it speaks volumes.

[Geko45]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

Your inability to defend it speaks volumes.

Why should he defend a position that he readily admits that he does not hold? You are putting forth a strawman and then trying to use his unwilligness to defend the strawman as evidence of a weak position. If you are going to continue to present fallacious arguments then you can expect people to start ignoring you.

[Paul7]

Originally Posted by Animal Mother

It's also largely an invention. The West that values human rights, all human rights, isn't Christian. If it were, there would still be slaves and women wouldn't have any rights other than those their fathers or husbands chose to grant them.

This atheist disagrees with you:

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news...-christianity/

"The main flaw of liberalism today is that it has retreated into a solely political and procedural dimension and has forgotten that it is also a tradition with a rich, specific ethical content rooted in European and American history — a history of which Christianity is an essential part. Modernity has resisted and waged war against the Church, while feeding abundantly on its Christian heritage. Its very exaltation of the individual pays secular homage to the Christian message that man was created by God in order to discover the truth about himself and the world."

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by Geko45

Why should he defend a position that he readily admits that he does not hold? You are putting forth a strawman and then trying to use his unwilligness to defend the strawman as evidence of a weak position. If you are going to continue to present fallacious arguments then you can expect people to start ignoring you.

So, he does believe in God now?

[Geko45]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

So, he does believe in God now?

[Celtic Pride]

Originally Posted by Gunhaver

One of life's little ironies is the fact that I've found far more acceptance and far less to bicker about from atheists as an atheist than from Christians as a Christian. Have you ever seen two atheist here arguing back and forth about how far back carbon dating is accurate to or how much dark matter is out there?

And ironically you, as an athiest, still choose to come to the Relgious Issues section of GT to tell Christians how silly and ignorant they are instead of going to non religious discussion boards .... like general glocking. Its just makes it appear as though you are wanton for bickering and conflict. How intelligent is that?

[Geko45]

Originally Posted by Celtic Pride

And ironically you, as an athiest, still choose to come to the Relgious Issues section of GT to tell Christians how silly and ignorant they are instead of going to non religious discussion boards .... like general glocking. Its just makes it appear as though you are wanton for bickering and conflict. How intelligent is that?

It seems like this point gets brought up at least every other day here and no matter how many times the explanation is stated, it never seems to sink in.

Even though we are athiests, religion still impacts us daily. We live with laws and regulations that are based on a faith we do not believe (blue laws, abortion restrictions, stem cell research bans, etc). We are stakeholders in this debate and we deserve to have our opinions heard. If believers would stop voting their beliefs at the ballot box then athiests would stop arguing against the spread of those same beliefs.

Religion is scourge on soceity. It causes the misallocation of necessary resources. It places undo infringments on our personal liberties. It claims lives in the name of serving false dieties (not so much christianity on this last point, but islam certainty). Mankind would be better off without it, or at least with it kept in its place inside churches, synagogues and temples and not smack in the middle of our public dialogue on these very important issues.

[Celtic Pride]

Originally Posted by Gunhaver

I've found that the more thinking and intelligent a person is the less likely they are to believe in god. Why do the atheists here know so much about the bible but the theists know so little about evolution or cosmology? Why do theists constantly ask the same silly questions and make the same silly statements regardless of how many times they're set straight? You can easily find out why there are no monkeys evolving into humans or how to explain "tide comes in, tide goes out" if you really wanted to know. That's the difference between atheists and theists. Atheists want to know. Theists think they already do.

You quite obviously have a considerable amount of indepth knowledge concerning religion(s), science, and human nature for living just one short life time. Unfortunately, I am not so blessed as to have all of your extensive knowlege and wisdom concerning life and all that surrounds it. A true authority on all matters. I am humbled to read your posts.

But please allow me, one of the ignorant, undeserving Christians one small favor. Could you please try not to be so blatantly offensive to those of us with a different opinion? We are Christians, not pacifists.

Hint: Since this is a firearms blog, most of the Christians here probably subscribe to the Knights Templar attitude concerning pacifism.

[Paul7]

Originally Posted by Geko45

It seems like this point gets brought up at least every other day here and no matter how many times the explanation is stated, it never seems to sink in.

Even though we are athiests, religion still impacts us daily. We live with laws and regulations that are based on a faith we do not believe (blue laws, abortion restrictions,

What abortion restrictions? We have about the most liberal abortion laws in the world.

[Celtic Pride]

Originally Posted by Geko45

Even though we are athiests, religion still impacts us daily. We live with laws and regulations that are based on a faith we do not believe (blue laws, abortion restrictions, stem cell research bans, etc). We are stakeholders in this debate and we deserve to have our opinions heard. If believers would stop voting their beliefs at the ballot box then athiests would stop arguing against the spread of those same beliefs.

Religion is scourge on soceity. It causes the misallocation of necessary resources. It places undo infringments on our personal liberties. It claims lives in the name of serving false dieties (not so much christianity on this last point, but islam certainty). Mankind would be better off without it, or at least with it kept in its place inside churches, synagogues and temples and not smack in the middle of our public dialogue on these very important issues.

I understand your concerns and I agree that you should have a voice in these issues. Attacking Christians on this board is not the way to effect the change that you seem to desire. If changing political views is truly your goal as I believe you stated above, might I suggest the POLITICAL TALK board. I am sure you will find lively debate there concerning all matter of political issues that you can persuade. The Religious Issues board that we are currently on, is for the discussion of religious issues, not politics.

[Geko45]

Originally Posted by Paul7

What abortion restrictions? We have about the most liberal abortion laws in the world.

The issue is dead at the federal level, but at the state level it is quite active.

Also, you now need to support your assertion (as I just supported mine) that we have the most liberal laws in the world on abortion?

2012: Another record year for abortion restrictions?

[Geko45]

Originally Posted by Celtic Pride

I understand your concerns and I agree that you should have a voice in these issues. Attacking Christians on this board is not the way to effect the change that you seem to desire. If changing political views is truly your goal as I believe you stated above, might I suggest the POLITICAL TALK board. I am sure you will find lively debate there concerning all matter of political issues that you can persuade. The Religious Issues board that we are currently on, is for the discussion of religious issues, not politics.

Meh, not really. If I went over there with these comments, they would tell me to take it to RI. I am not under any delusions that I will change the minds of any believers on this board, but there are those fence sitters that come here to lurk. I'd like to believe I am providing a counter opinion for them so that they can see both sides of the debate. This is also not the only avenue I utilize to further a truly secular society. Just one tool in the box.

[Celtic Pride]

Originally Posted by Geko45

Meh, not really. If I went over there with these comments, they would tell me to take it to RI. I am not under any delusions that I will change the minds of any believers on this board, but there are those fence sitters that come here to lurk. I'd like to believe I am providing a counter opinion for them so that they can see both sides of the debate. This is also not the only avenue I utilize to further a truly secular society. Just one tool in the box.

Valid arguement sir. I would like to ask a sincere question. I understand if the answer is too personal and you wish not to discuss it, but here it goes. You have previously posted that once you were a believer. What happened in your life that not only made you a non beliver, but has prompted you to rise to the level of being an athiest activist?

[chrisnkcmo]

Originally Posted by Tilley

Dear zombies:

Just for one second, please look at this whole debate through the eyes of another mind.

I (we) believe in God with all our hearts and mind.

I (we) also know that there is an evil element in this world personified in satan.

Keeping that in mind, when I (we) read some of the statements you living-dead write, it sounds EXACTLY like something satan would write.

What you guys write is blasphemy to us. There is no intellectual pursuit or any attempt of understanding on your part. It is merely your attempt to insult and belittle.

Because I (we) believe as we do, we know that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God will never be forgiven, in this world or the next.

I really do wish for all here that you would seek the truth of things unseen. Ask God and He will reveal Himself to you. That is a promise made directly from God.

Please remove the "(we)" from these statements and just use specific names of the people you think agree with you. I, and plenty of my faithful friends and family would never say these things to non-believers.

It is your judgemental attitude and hateful words that get in the way of God doing his job through you.



tilley,

please listen to the song, but what YOU really need to hear begins at 2:40


sorry,

YouTube (Short URL)

YouTube (Short URL)

[Geko45]

Originally Posted by Celtic Pride

Valid arguement sir.

I would like to thank you for being civil in your discourse. It is a refreshing change of pace for this forum.

[Celtic Pride]

Originally Posted by Geko45

I would like to thank you for being civil in your discourse. It is a refreshing change of pace for this forum.

Quite welcome. I added to my last post asking you a question. Please re read and answer if you are inclined.

[Geko45]

Originally Posted by Celtic Pride

What happened in your life that not only made you a non beliver, but has prompted you to rise to the level of being an athiest activist?

Not to personal at all. I have posted my story here before and several of the other athiests here have similar experiences.

The event that lead to my conversion to athiesm was simply an in depth and concerted study of the bible and its message, nothing more. I'm sure that some here assume this could only arise from some tragic event or deep personal loss. The argument that "athiests hate god" occurs here quite often (not suggesting that you subscribe to that position), but I can assure you this was not the case for me.

I was raised baptist. Not overly religious, but we attended church perhaps a dozen times per year. I was baptized and went to Sunday school like many do. I grew up believing in christ and even though I had some doubts, I always assumed that if I sat down and studied the bible in earnest, I would find my answers. I always intended to do that, but just never got around to it. Until the day I finally did.

I went back to school to complete my business degree and intentionally selected a christian university. As part of the curriculm, we studied the bible in every class and attempted to apply its teachings to the course topic. The curriculum also included several pure theology courses. Most significant among these was old and new testament survey.

Both of these course entailed reading the contents of the bible in its entirety while simultaneously looking for common themes. As a literary analysis, the classes were fascinating. My professors for each were both pastors that had completed divinty degrees and were very knowledgeable teachers on the subject.

However, although intellectually the classes were very stimulating, I also began to grow increaingly more uneasy as we worked through the material. The answers I always assumed would be there were not materializing. What I was finding was some good advice in the form of a handful of truisms (that I already knew) surrounded by a lot of bad advice and a tremendous amount of what can only be described as superstition.

The whole experience left me floored and put me on the path to where I am now (which is another very long post). The short story is that I went into a christian university with the intent of strengthening my faith and came out the other side as a non-believer.

[Celtic Pride]

Originally Posted by Geko45

The argument that "athiests hate god" occurs here quite often (not suggesting that you subscribe to that position),

To the contrary. I would never have considered that position. Why would an athiest hate something that he does not believe in? I certainly dont hate the tooth fairy.

The rest of your response does surprise me. I would not have imagined that you lost your faith in a Christian College, but then again I have my own questions. Not about the exsistence of God or anything, but I sometimes have inner conflict concerning the differences between Catholocism and Protestantism. I think each has better positions on different issues. Unfortunately mans greed has caused great confusion in the Church. Thanks for sharing your journey with me.

[Animal Mother]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

Your inability to defend it speaks volumes.

Yes, it does. It says I don't see the need to defend against completely baseless claims made out of either ignorance or intentional misrepresentation. If you're truly interested in understanding either the Standard Model or the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis, I'll be happy to suggest some resources.

[Animal Mother]

Originally Posted by Paul7

This atheist disagrees with you:

Ok. But he's wrong. The classic concepts of natural rights and liberal democracy that characterize the "West" are completely incompatible with Christianity. Democracy, equal rights, and personal freedom all find their genesis outside the Bible.

You'll also understand that a reference from the National Catholic Register about a supposed atheist who teaches at a Pontifical University and has written a book with a foreword by the Pope is, at the least, entirely questionable.

[RC-RAMIE]

Originally Posted by Celtic Pride

To the contrary. I would never have considered that position. Why would an athiest hate something that he does not believe in? I certainly dont hate the tooth fairy.

The Atheist here have been arguing that point for a long time. Maybe some of the other believers will understand it now that a believer said it.

[Celtic Pride]

Originally Posted by RC-RAMIE

The Atheist here have been arguing that point for a long time. Maybe some of the other believers will understand it now that a believer said it.

I can see that point clearly. On the other hand, I wish that some non believers would also recognize this fact:

As a Christian, I dont believe in Santa Claus either, but I dont go to the mall every Christmas season telling the kids Santa doesnt exsist. My time is more valuable than that. It also does not matter to me if children believe in Santa Claus.

Non believers chose to put God and Santa Claus in the same catagory. We believers choose not to. But the non believers for some reason spend exhaustive amounts of time trying to disprove God's exsistance. It makes me wonder if they go to the mall also .......

[muscogee]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

The Atheist position that nothing beget something, and from chaos beget order is completely illogical. There is no evidence to support that position.

Can you name one atheist who believes that? My position is, "I don't know where everything came from". Neither do you.