[juggy4711]

Originally Posted by Lone Wolf8634

I still would like to know what purpose it serves.

Why is it so necessary to make faith a part of the whole deal?

Because with out such faith others have no basis to tell one how to live their life as they see fit?

[Lone Wolf8634]

Originally Posted by juggy4711

Because with out such faith others have no basis to tell one how to live their life as they see fit?

Definitely one possibility.

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by Lone Wolf8634

If you subscribe to the omniscient and omnipotent theory (which kinda defines a "God") than he certainly did make me this way.

Just because He knows the outcome of all things does not mean he predestines them.

Who gave me all those experiences? Who put me in the situations knowing what my decisions would be?

I would suppose other people gave you experience either for good or for bad out of their own choices. This allowed you to make a choice one way or the other, and you chose another. The point is, someone chose, and you experienced. Then you chose. God did not make them choose anything more than He made you choose anything else.

Consider the story of Mrs. Doolittle. She could have chosen to be a very bitter person being beridden for twenty years while married to a crippled husband. She didn't. Think how hard that would be to be.

Words: Ci­vil­la D. Mar­tin, 1905.
Music: Charles H. Gab­ri­el

Early in the spring of 1905, my hus­band and I were so­journ­ing in El­mi­ra, New York. We con­tract­ed a deep friend­ship for a cou­ple by the name of Mr. and Mrs. Doo­lit­tle—true saints of God. Mrs. Doo­lit­tle had been bed­rid­den for nigh twen­ty years. Her hus­band was an in­cur­a­ble crip­ple who had to pro­pel him­self to and from his bus­i­ness in a wheel chair. De­spite their af­flict­ions, they lived hap­py Christ­ian lives, bring­ing in­spir­a­tion and com­fort to all who knew them. One day while we were vi­sit­ing with the Doo­lit­tles, my hus­band com­ment­ed on their bright hope­ful­ness and asked them for the se­cret of it. Mrs. Doo­lit­tle's re­ply was sim­ple: "His eye is on the spar­row, and I know He watch­es me." The beau­ty of this sim­ple ex­press­ion of bound­less faith gripped the hearts and fired the imag­in­a­tion of Dr. Mar­tin and me. The hymn "His Eye Is on the Spar­row" was the out­come of that ex­per­i­ence.

Civilla Martin
The next day she mailed the po­em to Charles Gab­ri­el, who sup­plied the mu­sic. Sing­er Ethel Wa­ters so loved this song that she used its name as the ti­tle for her au­to­bi­og­ra­phy.



Why should I feel discouraged, why should the shadows come,
Why should my heart be lonely, and long for heaven and home,
When Jesus is my portion? My constant friend is He:
His eye is on the sparrow, and I know He watches me;
His eye is on the sparrow, and I know He watches me.

Refrain

I sing because I'm happy,
I sing because I'm free,
For His eye is on the sparrow,
And I know He watches me.

"Let not your heart be troubled," His tender word I hear,
And resting on His goodness, I lose my doubts and fears;
Though by the path He leadeth, but one step I may see;
His eye is on the sparrow, and I know He watches me;
His eye is on the sparrow, and I know He watches me.

Refrain

Whenever I am tempted, whenever clouds arise,
When songs give place to sighing, when hope within me dies,
I draw the closer to Him, from care He sets me free;
His eye is on the sparrow, and I know He watches me;
His eye is on the sparrow, and I know He watches me.

She was not predestined to be cheerful or to rely on Christ as her savior. Despite her experience, she chose differently.

My understanding is he knew the entire course of my life long before I was born.

Foreknowledge does not mean predestination. Further, your life is not over yet. Choices still can be made.

If you are certain that God doesn't exist, then there is no harm in praying to Him and asking Him to open your eyes is there?

What would you do, if you got a response?

[juggy4711]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

Just because He knows the outcome of all things does not mean he predestines them.

Let me get this straight. An all powerful all knowing God knows the outcome of events but doesn't dictate them?

[Lone Wolf8634]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

Just because He knows the outcome of all things does not mean he predestines them.

Foreknowledge does not mean predestination. Further, your life is not over yet. Choices still can be made.

What would you do, if you got a response?

Sorry, can't wrap my head around the bolded.

If you know the outcome beforehand.....Than it's predestined. It can only happen one way. The way it was foreseen.

So it matters very little what choices I make. It will be what it will be.

If your mythology is correct, there is no such thing as free will, your destiny was planned, charted and set in stone long before you ever existed. Every second of every day.

Tried it. Din't work.

ETA. You simply can't have it both ways. God's either omniscient or he's not.

[Animal Mother]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

To strenghten it.

Why does faith need to be strengthened? How does God refusing to produce proof of His existence strengthen anyone's faith more than it would be if they unquestionably knew He existed?

It is our commission to reach out to them as well.

Not the question at hand. The question is why does God allow them to exist? He wasn't in the habit of doing that in OT.

Yes. I have started over and am currently in Exodus 20 at the moment.

By which point, if I remember correctly, God has already exterminated the population of the Earth and cause Pharaoh to behave in such a way that all the firstborn of Egypt were slaughtered. But you haven't yet reached the point of the Israelites committing regular genocide. This is a loving God?

Anyone who would do this is no follower of Christ, but profane His name.

That has no bearing on the argument at hand. You claim that "you would be hard pressed to find a culture anywhere on this planet that agrees torturing babies for fun is acceptable." History shows us this isn't the case. The question of whether or not people who do such things are "real" followers of Christ is completely tangential to your claims about morality being written on human hearts by God.

Yes, and no. All of these Commandments were written in the hearts of mankind. For our benefit, yes, most certainly, to provide for our happiness.

Do you have any evidence of this "writing"?

When you have a society that is at peace with each other, and at peace with God then you have an ideal and happy society.

How does God factor in? Wouldn't such a society be equally at peace without God?

When you have the assurance of salvation, you have hope.

No, if salvation is assured, hope is unnecessary.

When you care for your fellow human being you have love.

Love is simply caring about others? What supernatural involvement is necessary for that? Isn't there a survival advantage to caring about others? That's the same basis as the Ethic of reciprocity, also known as the Golden Rule.

When you faith you have the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

I hear this all the time, it doesn't actually mean anything though.

So, if you look at all 10 of the commandments they are for our benefit and betterment of society around us.

How does not making graven images improve society?

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by Lone Wolf8634

Sorry, can't wrap my head around the bolded.

If you know the outcome beforehand.....Than it's predestined. It can only happen one way. The way it was foreseen.

So it matters very little what choices I make. It will be what it will be.

If your mythology is correct, there is no such thing as free will, your destiny was planned, charted and set in stone long before you ever existed. Every second of every day.

Tried it. Din't work.

ETA. You simply can't have it both ways. God's either omniscient or he's not.

Just because you know something is going to happen doesn't mean you predestined it.

Did you predestine the sun to rise tomorrow?

Did you predestine the moon to rise tonight?

Did you predestine the tide to go in and out?

You knew in advance that these things would happen.

Just because God knows what will happen does not mean he caused them to happen.

He gave you free will and choice. He knows what you will choose, and will do His best to help you.

He has sent a whole host of Christians after you to pursuade you to make a choice for Him. However, He will not force you.

If God predestined every choice, then there would be no Atheists or Agnostics.

He created the laws of physics and time. We exist in linear time frame. God does not.

He is a fair and just God, so He will attempt to pursuade you to choose correctly, but He will never force you to do so.

Draw close to God, and He will draw close to you. If you sincerely ask God to show Himself in your life, it will happen. You will not be denied.

[Lone Wolf8634]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

Just because you know something is going to happen doesn't mean you predestined it.

Did you predestine the sun to rise tomorrow?

Did you predestine the moon to rise tonight?

Did you predestine the tide to go in and out?

You knew in advance that these things would happen.

Almost.

I didn't cause the sun to rise, or the moon, or the tides to go in and out. I also can't stop them or affect them in any way.

Just because I know of cyclic occurrence does not mean I "foretold" it.

That trick would require me to know the exact time their gonna stop.

If I had that talent, I'd be $640 million richer than I am.

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

Just because God knows what will happen does not mean he caused them to happen.

According to Christianity, yes he did.

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

He gave you free will and choice. He knows what you will choose, and will do His best to help you.

Thats a contradictory statement. He gave me free will, but he knew what I would choose?

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

He has sent a whole host of Christians after you to pursuade you to make a choice for Him. However, He will not force you.

STOP! It's humor time!

Could he have 'em quit waking me up? I work nights, and I really need my sleep.

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

If God predestined every choice, then there would be no Atheists or Agnostics.

But he did. And there are.


Again, You cant have it both ways, either God is omniscient, or he isn't. Which is it?

Again, if he has the power to change our circumstances and does nothing, then that's cruel.

Why create something, or someone, just to condemn them for being what you made them?

[ksg0245]

Originally Posted by Paul7

Salvation.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

What prevents God forgiving sins without that sacrificial lamb? What agency requires God sacrifice himself to himself to forgive people for being the way he made them?

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by Animal Mother

Why does faith need to be strengthened?

Do you have children? I do. As they have grown older they have developed more faith in me as their father. I remember when I was detailed away for the first 6 months of my son's life. When I returned he did not know me. When I laughed, he cried. But, now he has grown closer to me as his faith has grown in me. Faith is about relationship. This is why Jesus teaches about the faith of little children, and how we should be like that.

How does God refusing to produce proof of His existence strengthen anyone's faith more than it would be if they unquestionably knew He existed?

We are taught that if we draw close to God He will draw close us. Have you tried that yet?

Not the question at hand. The question is why does God allow them to exist? He wasn't in the habit of doing that in OT.

Jesus was the God of the Old Testament and New Testament. When He said, "It is written" where do you think the writings he referrenced were from?

By which point, if I remember correctly, God has already exterminated the population of the Earth and cause

Yes, God was grieved by the violence and the selfish evil thoughts of human kind continually. We are told the world will become like that again. It was once destroyed by water, the next time cleansed by fire.

However, despite that God kept a remnant who had not corrupted themselves. He is in the process of gathering that remnant today. You can be part of that if you choose.

Pharaoh to behave in such a way that all the firstborn of Egypt were slaughtered. But you haven't yet reached the point of the Israelites committing regular genocide. This is a loving God?

Actually, God knew what Pharoh would do, He did not actually cause Pharoh to do anything. But, knowing what Pharoh would do, He used it as a teaching tool to the Israelites, and it is codified for us as well as a teaching tool.

That has no bearing on the argument at hand. You claim that "you would be hard pressed to find a culture anywhere on this planet that agrees torturing babies for fun is acceptable." History shows us this isn't the case. The question of whether or not people who do such things are "real" followers of Christ is completely tangential to your claims about morality being written on human hearts by God.

And you have provided no historical evidence that people claiming to be Christians tortured babies for fun. The so-called Christians under the influence of evil and Satan, profaning the name of the Lord by stating they were acting in His name slaughtered whole peoples in the Mideival Period. When in point of fact, they were actually persecuting the saints of God.

Do you have any evidence of this "writing"?
How does God factor in? Wouldn't such a society be equally at peace without God?

The fact that we can come to a consensus that 5-10 of the commandments are good, I doing my best to be a follower of Christ, and you an Atheist would be strong evidence of that fact. If you were not in opposition to God, I am certain you would see the the relevance of the first 4 as well.

No, if salvation is assured, hope is unnecessary.
Love is simply caring about others? What supernatural involvement is necessary for that? Isn't there a survival advantage to caring about others? That's the same basis as the Ethic of reciprocity, also known as the Golden Rule.
I hear this all the time, it doesn't actually mean anything though.
How does not making graven images improve society?

We have faith in our salvation, the evidence of things not seen? I have never seen the face of Jesus, but I believe in Him. I have never seen heaven, but I am positive that if I continue to walk with Jesus He is preparing a place for me there.

How does following the first four commandments bring you any benefit? It doesn't. In the absence of a relationship with Jesus as your savior, it does you no good as an individual.

As a society, it benefits the whole, becaue Jesus gives us His peace that passes all understanding, and with that peace we want to obey the commandments, rather than do them as a rote ritual in order not to anger the people around you.

[muscogee]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

We are taught that if we draw close to God He will draw close us. Have you tried that yet?

Yes I have. So have many others in this forum. God either ignored me or He doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

Actually, God knew what Pharoh would do, He did not actually cause Pharoh to do anything. But, knowing what Pharoh would do, He used it as a teaching tool to the Israelites, and it is codified for us as well as a teaching tool.

So God entrapped Pharaoh to make an example of him and his people so the rest of us wouldn't be like him? What about the innocent Egyptians who suffered and died as a result of Pharaoh's "sins"? Once again, why didn't God directly reveal himself to Pharaoh instead of sending Moses? If you were Pharaoh would you believe a traitor like Moses?

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

And you have provided no historical evidence that people claiming to be Christians tortured babies for fun. The so-called Christians under the influence of evil and Satan, profaning the name of the Lord by stating they were acting in His name slaughtered whole peoples in the Mideival Period. When in point of fact, they were actually persecuting the saints of God.

So the Jews were saints of God? Are they still? If not, when did that happen?

[ksg0245]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

Actually, God knew what Pharoh would do, He did not actually cause Pharoh to do anything.

What does "I will harden his heart" actually mean, then, in light of the fact that Pharaoh is described as acquiescing?

Exodus 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.

28 Intreat the LORD (for it is enough) that there be no more mighty thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no longer.

Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 7:13
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exodus 7:14
And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

Exodus 7:22
And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exodus 9:12
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

Exodus 10:27
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

Exodus 11:10
And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Kind of sounds like God causing someone to act against their own will.

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

The so-called Christians under the influence of evil and Satan, profaning the name of the Lord by stating they were acting in His name slaughtered whole peoples in the Mideival Period. When in point of fact, they were actually persecuting the saints of God.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/pre...true-scotsman/
‘No True Scotsman’ Fallacy
Explanation
The no true scotsman fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one’s position. Proposed counter-examples to a theory are dismissed as irrelevant solely because they are counter-examples, but purportedly because they are not what the theory is about.

Example
The No True Scotsman fallacy involves discounting evidence that would refute a proposition, concluding that it hasn’t been falsified when in fact it has.

If Angus, a Glaswegian, who puts sugar on his porridge, is proposed as a counter-example to the claim “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge”, the ‘No true Scotsman’ fallacy would run as follows:
(1) Angus puts sugar on his porridge.
(2) No (true) Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.
Therefore:
(3) Angus is not a (true) Scotsman.
Therefore:
(4) Angus is not a counter-example to the claim that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable.

Real-World Examples
An argument similar to this is often arises when people attempt to define religious groups. In some Christian groups, for example, there is an idea that faith is permanent, that once one becomes a Christian one cannot fall away. Apparent counter-examples to this idea, people who appear to have faith but subsequently lose it, are written off using the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy: they didn’t really have faith, they weren’t true Christians. The claim that faith cannot be lost is thus preserved from refutation. Given such an approach, this claim is unfalsifiable, there is no possible refutation of it.

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

The fact that we can come to a consensus that 5-10 of the commandments are good, I doing my best to be a follower of Christ, and you an Atheist would be strong evidence of that fact. If you were not in opposition to God, I am certain you would see the the relevance of the first 4 as well.

Atheists aren't in opposition to any deity.

[Animal Mother]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

Do you have children? I do. As they have grown older they have developed more faith in me as their father. I remember when I was detailed away for the first 6 months of my son's life. When I returned he did not know me. When I laughed, he cried. But, now he has grown closer to me as his faith has grown in me. Faith is about relationship. This is why Jesus teaches about the faith of little children, and how we should be like that.

This doesn't answer the question asked at all. Your child didn't have faith in your existence, he had evidence you existed even if you scared him.

We are taught that if we draw close to God He will draw close us. Have you tried that yet?

Is that the process you followed with your children? Ignoring them until they approached you and begged for your attention?

Jesus was the God of the Old Testament and New Testament. When He said, "It is written" where do you think the writings he referrenced were from?

Again, this isn't an answer to the question which was asked.

Yes, God was grieved by the violence and the selfish evil thoughts of human kind continually. We are told the world will become like that again. It was once destroyed by water, the next time cleansed by fire.

God's reaction to some people being evil and violent was to kill all people. I'll ask again, this is a loving God?

Actually, God knew what Pharoh would do, He did not actually cause Pharoh to do anything.

According ot the bible, yes He did as ksg has already pointed out.

And you have provided no historical evidence that people claiming to be Christians tortured babies for fun.

There's a plethora of evidence that children and infants were killed by Christians over the centuries.

The so-called Christians under the influence of evil and Satan, profaning the name of the Lord by stating they were acting in His name slaughtered whole peoples in the Mideival Period. When in point of fact, they were actually persecuting the saints of God.

Again, ksg has already pointed out that this is an example of a No True Scotsman fallacy.

We have faith in our salvation, the evidence of things not seen? I have never seen the face of Jesus, but I believe in Him. I have never seen heaven, but I am positive that if I continue to walk with Jesus He is preparing a place for me there.

You believe things for which you have no evidence. I understand that, I just don't understand the benefit of doing so. Is there a benefit to believing in Ahura Mazda or Quetzlcoatl?

How does following the first four commandments bring you any benefit? It doesn't. In the absence of a relationship with Jesus as your savior, it does you no good as an individual.

As a society, it benefits the whole, becaue Jesus gives us His peace that passes all understanding, and with that peace we want to obey the commandments, rather than do them as a rote ritual in order not to anger the people around you.

Is this why all Christian societies are always peaceful and absent conflict?