[DocCasualty]

Originally Posted by czsmithGT

Actually the affidavit doesn't say "do not follow him". The affidavit says "When the police dispatcher realized Zimmerman was pursuing Martin he instructed Zimmerman not to do that ..." which is true. The affidavit quotes what Zimmerman said a couple times, but it does not quote the dispatcher's exact words.

Fortunately Zimmerman will get his days in court or possibly have an opportunity to plead to a lesser charge.

As another poster in some thread here on GT pointed out, the burden of "probable cause" is fairly low. It has a basis in fact but specifically "only are presented for a determination of a Probable Cause for Second Degree Murder". Thus, the factual nature is yet to be determined.

[saxconnection]

Originally Posted by czsmithGT

Actually the affidavit doesn't say "do not follow him". The affidavit says "When the police dispatcher realized Zimmerman was pursuing Martin he instructed Zimmerman not to do that ..." which is true. The affidavit quotes what Zimmerman said a couple times, but it does not quote the dispatcher's exact words.

Fortunately Zimmerman will get his days in court or possibly have an opportunity to plead to a lesser charge.

This is what I thought was happening as well. I would love to see him plead not guilty to the 2nd Degree Murder charge and wait for the acquittal.

I also opine that if he pleads to a lesser charge, he is playing right into the hands of everyone who wants him convicted. This may be the ploy of the 2nd degree charge in the first place; to scare him into pleading out.

Adam

[Goaltender66]

Originally Posted by czsmithGT

Fortunately Zimmerman will get his days in court or possibly have an opportunity to plead to a lesser charge.

Do you think the affidavit is strong enough to get past a judge? It's pretty sparse and there's nothing in there that really supports murder 2.

If a judge allows a trial to go forward based on the "strength" of that affidavit, that would be as nuts as the affidavit itself, IMO.


ETA: Just heard on the radio (AP News) that Zimmerman is going to reach out and apologize to Martin's parents. Remorse is one thing, but at this stage it's usually not a good idea for the D to talk at all. I'm beginning to think that Zimmerman needs new legal representation.


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[certifiedfunds]

Originally Posted by Goaltender66

Do you think the affidavit is strong enough to get past a judge? It's pretty sparse and there's nothing in there that really supports murder 2.

If a judge allows a trial to go forward based on the "strength" of that affidavit, that would be as nuts as the affidavit itself, IMO.


ETA: Just heard on the radio (AP News) that Zimmerman is going to reach out and apologize to Martin's parents. Remorse is one thing, but at this stage it's usually not a good idea for the D to talk at all. I'm beginning to think that Zimmerman needs new legal representation.


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I wonder where the ACLU is?

For that matter, where is the NRA or 2A attorneys?

[certifiedfunds]

I like how it says Zimmerman falsely assumed Martin was going to commit a crime.

Amazing that they prosecutor has managed to salvage the hard drive in Martin's brain.

[callihan_44]

Originally Posted by Goaltender66

Do you think the affidavit is strong enough to get past a judge? It's pretty sparse and there's nothing in there that really supports murder 2.

If a judge allows a trial to go forward based on the "strength" of that affidavit, that would be as nuts as the affidavit itself, IMO.


ETA: Just heard on the radio (AP News) that Zimmerman is going to reach out and apologize to Martin's parents. Remorse is one thing, but at this stage it's usually not a good idea for the D to talk at all. I'm beginning to think that Zimmerman needs new legal representation.


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apologizing makes me think he is guilty of something or else he realizes he is getting thrown under the bus no matter what and wants to soften the blow

[bear62]

I can't believe any judge will buy into this affidavit........

[Arc Angel]

Originally Posted by saxconnection

This is what I thought was happening as well. I would love to see him plead not guilty to the 2nd Degree Murder charge and wait for the acquittal. I also opine that if he pleads to a lesser charge, he is playing right into the hands of everyone who wants him convicted. This may be the ploy of the 2nd degree charge in the first place; to scare him into pleading out. Adam

Good! That's exactly what I've been thinking, too.

Originally Posted by certifiedfunds

I wonder where the ACLU is? For that matter, where is the NRA or 2A attorneys?

It would be extremely unusual for the ACLU to take on Zimmerman's defense. As for the NRA? They're doing what they usually do in cases like this: Limiting their exposure and holding onto your 2A money by keeping their distance until AFTER they know, 'which way the wind is blowing'. The NRA will, quite possibly, do the same thing here that they did in the Grant Kuenzli shooting in Arizona: They'll sample gun owners' opinions and, if popular enough, wait until the appeal before stepping in.

Originally Posted by Goaltender66

...... Just heard on the radio (AP News) that Zimmerman is going to reach out and apologize to Martin's parents. Remorse is one thing, but at this stage it's usually not a good idea for the D to talk at all. I'm beginning to think that Zimmerman needs new legal representation.

Yeah, the political/legal situation is already beginning to stink; Zimmerman isn't handling himself all that well, either. He seems to be following either weak emotional impulses, or taking the wrong legal advice. (I'll bet he wishes he'd listened to that police dispatcher now, huh!)

In any case I, also, think George Zimmerman might do better with a more savvy attorney. (Where did his present lawyer come from, anyway?) It wouldn't be a good idea for Zimmerman to remain publicly silent right now; it would be an excellent idea! Now is NOT the right time for him to express any personal opinion, whatsoever.

While I am of the opinion that Martin was an active - and, perhaps, culpable - participant in his own demise, is anyone else starting to think that Zimmerman might be equally unable to recognize good advice when he hears it?

[DOC44]

Originally Posted by bear62

I can't believe any judge will buy into this affidavit........

look at the judge that was randomly selected.

and this special prosecuter is running for re-election on this case.

Doc44

[Arc Angel]

Originally Posted by DOC44

look at the judge that was randomly selected; and this special prosecuter is running for re-election on this case. Doc44

So, you noticed that too! Answer me this: There was reported to be some, 'mysterious jewelry' of unknown origin in Martin's backpack. Has anyone heard anything more about this jewelry; and does anybody know what's happened to it? I only heard one report and then the organized news media went completely silent about it.

[czsmithGT]

Originally Posted by Goaltender66

Do you think the affidavit is strong enough to get past a judge? It's pretty sparse and there's nothing in there that really supports murder 2.

Yes because it did get past the judge.

Zimmerman's next steps will be a bail hearing and discovery where the state will need to start showing the defense all their evidence.

After that he can try to get the case dismissed based on the Stand Your Ground law but that would be a separate exercise that will require the defense and prosecution to present evidence and make arguments to a different judge. If that fails or he doesn't go that route he will go to trial on the 2nd degree murder charge unless he pleads out.

At least that is how I understand what will happen.

[czsmithGT]

Originally Posted by Arc Angel

So, you noticed that too! Answer me this: There was reported to be some, 'mysterious jewelry' of unknown origin in Martin's backpack. Has anyone heard anything more about this jewelry; and does anybody know what's happened to it? I only heard one report and then the organized news media went completely silent about it.

All I heard was a report on one of the news shows that it wasn't determined to have been stolen.

[czsmithGT]

Originally Posted by bear62

I can't believe any judge will buy into this affidavit........

The judge already did it. That is what happened at Zimmerman's hearing. He is still in jail and has not yet requested a bail hearing.

[czsmithGT]

Originally Posted by Goaltender66

ETA: Just heard on the radio (AP News) that Zimmerman is going to reach out and apologize to Martin's parents. Remorse is one thing, but at this stage it's usually not a good idea for the D to talk at all. I'm beginning to think that Zimmerman needs new legal representation.

It has seemed to me for a while that Zimmerman needed/needs to keep his mouth shut.

[Goaltender66]

Originally Posted by czsmithGT

Yes because it did get past the judge.

Zimmerman's next steps will be a bail hearing and discovery where the state will need to start showing the defense all their evidence.

After that he can try to get the case dismissed based on the Stand Your Ground law but that would be a separate exercise that will require the defense and prosecution to present evidence and make arguments to a different judge. If that fails or he doesn't go that route he will go to trial on the 2nd degree murder charge unless he pleads out.

At least that is how I understand what will happen.

I thought yesterday was the initial appearance and the preliminary hearing has yet to take place.

[czsmithGT]

Originally Posted by Goaltender66

I thought yesterday was the initial appearance and the preliminary hearing has yet to take place.

There is a formal arraignment on May 29. If he decides to go for acquittal based on the "Stand Your Ground" law I don't know if that would happen before of after the arraignment.

[Goaltender66]

Originally Posted by czsmithGT

There is a formal arraignment on May 29. If he decides to go for acquittal based on the "Stand Your Ground" law I don't know if that would happen before of after the arraignment.

Not knowing Florida rules, but IIRC generally if an indictment is done without a grand jury, there is a preliminary hearing where the probable cause is checked, defense can challenge the PC, etc. I don't believe that preliminary hearing was yesterday. If it was then that's awfully fast, given when the Affidavit of Probable Cause was filed.

The arraignment may be scheduled but that could be on the assumption that the case will pass the preliminary hearing stage.

[czsmithGT]

Originally Posted by Goaltender66

Not knowing Florida rules, but IIRC generally if an indictment is done without a grand jury, there is a preliminary hearing where the probable cause is checked, defense can challenge the PC, etc. I don't believe that preliminary hearing was yesterday. If it was then that's awfully fast, given when the Affidavit of Probable Cause was filed.

The arraignment may be scheduled but that could be on the assumption that the case will pass the preliminary hearing stage.

Well I think what you are talking about happened yesterday. Unless he requests and is granted bail he will be in jail until the arraignment on May 29.

[Goaltender66]

Originally Posted by czsmithGT

Well I think what you are talking about happened yesterday. Unless he requests and is granted bail he will be in jail until the arraignment on May 29.

Usually at preliminary hearings the defense can challenge PC. If his attorney didn't do that then he's a moron.

I'm kind of thinking yesterday was his initial appearance, not the prelim. Focus of the initial appearance is determining if he's going to be held until PC is validated, not a determination of probable cause in and of itself and vis a vis allowing the prosecution to continue.

[czsmithGT]

Originally Posted by Goaltender66

Usually at preliminary hearings the defense can challenge PC. If his attorney didn't do that then he's a moron.

I'm kind of thinking yesterday was his initial appearance, not the prelim. Focus of the initial appearance is determining if he's going to be held until PC is validated, not a determination of probable cause in and of itself and vis a vis allowing the prosecution to continue.

I think this is a summary of the legal path that will be followed. The arraignment was scheduled for May 29

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/12/justic...ext/index.html

[DustyJacket]

Originally Posted by czsmithGT

The affidavit got the job done while showing a minimal peek at the State's case. What else would you prefer the prosecutor to have done?

Who knows.
My experience stems from the other side of the arrest (i.e. BEFORE the arrest) where affidavits contain facts.

if opinions or conclusions are present, they are labeled as such.

Clearly the DA/prosecutor's office does it differently.

[snerd]

Dershowitz: Zimmerman Affidavit ‘Irresponsible And Unethical’

Harvard University law professor Alan Dershowitz made an appearance on on MSNBC’s Hardball to discuss the Zimmerman arrest affidavit, and had some incredibly harsh language for Angela Corey concerning her actions in the George Zimmerman prosecution.

Dershowitz is a well-known Democrat with a column on the Huffington Post, but seemed stunned by how poorly written the affidavit was, going so far as to call it “irresponsible and unethical,” as well as Corey’s actions politically motivated. He also said that if the prosecution didn’t have more evidence for the case than what we’ve seen, “a good judge would throw it out.”

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-lineh...-and-unethical

[greentriple]

Originally Posted by GunHo198

So of a kid comes into my shop and points a gun at me and demands money... Me being a shooter and having been through this before, and being cool headed and well trained, not feeling scared for my life as I've again been through this 3 other times, I draw my side arm and shoot and kill the kid because he's pointing a gun at me...

I could be found guilty of second degree murder?

Just asking, cause I often think about this. I'm more concerned for my staff than myself. I dont talk to the suspects anymore, I just shoot...


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Unlikely.
1) a gun pointed at u I a presumption that you are confronted by deadly force.
2) Its a question if a reasonable person would be in fear for their life, which they would be.
3) And a reasonable response would be defend with deadly force.

Remember the reasonable person standard is a legal one. Your conduct is measured against this "objective" measure.


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[greentriple]

Originally Posted by rgregoryb

I read the affidavit, it read like a third grade school report...it would not be sufficient for an arrest in many places. It was either written to help the defense or hastily put together to placate the masses.

This is going to be a goat rope.

Written to help the defense? Are you nuts? Prosecutors don't help defendants.


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[greentriple]

Originally Posted by njl

From the 911 tapes I've listened to, the affidavit actually lies. "we don't need you to do that" != "do not follow him".

The affidavit contradicts Zimmerman's account of what happened. With no witnesses to the initial confrontation (if there was one), I don't see how the state is going to prove beyond reasonable doubt that things happened that way.

What could be very interesting is the ballistics...i.e. the path the bullet took through Martin, if it exited, where it ended up (assuming it was recovered). That should give pretty good evidence as to whether Zimmerman was on his back on the ground, shooting up at Martin, or if it happened differently. Of course, if the state is going to maintain that Zimmerman started the altercation that ultimately resulted in the shooting, they'll argue the ballistics are irrelevant. But how will they prove that, beyond a reasonable doubt?

Not CSI pal. Trajectory is cool in movies and TV, almost always useless in real life.


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