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Old 04-21-2012, 13:53   #1
WS6
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Sabbath or Sunday?

From another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebird
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk
That isn't terribly suprising considering the Council of Nicaea occurred circa 325AD. The last Apostle was long dead by then. Further Emperor Constantine had already brought Apostasy and Pagan elements into the Church. [ ... ]
To what "Apostasy and Pagan elements" do you refer?
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath-...s-changed.aspx

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath-...centuries.aspx
Sunday was the primary day of worship for Christians for nearly three centuries before Constantine. An excerpt from this article:

Quote:
Sabbath or Sunday?

Some religious organizations (Seventh-Day Adventists, Seventh-Day Baptists, and certain others) claim that Christians must not worship on Sunday but on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. They claim that, at some unnamed time after the apostolic age, the Church "changed" the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.

The Didache:

"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas:

"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch:

"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 9 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr:

"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).
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Old 04-21-2012, 13:55   #2
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Old 04-21-2012, 15:50   #3
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Genesis 2:1-2, "1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

The Sabbath was established at creation as the sign of God's creative power. He blessed it and made it holy.

Before God descended upon Sinai and wrote the 10 commandments with his own hand as we see in:

Exodus 31:18, "When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God."

The examples of God counseling to remember His Holy Day can be seen as follows:


Exodus 5:4-5, “4 Then the king of Egypt said to them, “Mosesand Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to yourlabor.” 5 And Pharaoh said, “Look, the people of the land aremany now, and you make them restfrom their labor!

The term “rest” used by Pharaoh in theoriginal language is built on the word Sabbath. This was well before Sinai, and evidence of the 4thCommandment observance.

Exodus 16:4-5, “4Then the LORD said to Moses, “I will raindown bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gatherenough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they willfollow my instructions. 5 On the sixth day they are to prepare whatthey bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”

Exodus 16:21-30, “21Eachmorning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, itmelted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—twoomers[b] for each person—and theleaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He saidto them, “This is what the LORD commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbathrest, a holy sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil whatyou want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”

24 So they saved it untilmorning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the LORD. You willnot find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are togather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”

27 Nevertheless, some ofthe people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. 28Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long will you[c] refuse to keep my commands andmy instructions? 29 Bear in mind that the LORD has given you theSabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyoneis to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” 30So the people rested on the seventh day.”

Here we have more evidence of the 4th Commandment well beforeSinai.

Spoken by God Himself as he descended on mount Sinai, and written by His very finger we find the 4th Commandment:

Exodus 20:8-11,"
8Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shalllabor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath tothe LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your sonor daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor anyforeigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD madethe heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested onthe seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

It is the only one of the 10 that God clearly said to REMEMBER. Further, He refers back to Genesis 2, where he made the Seventh Day Holy after creation.

What did Jesus have to say about the Sabbath?

Mark 2:23-27, "23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need?26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” 27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Here we have learned two important things. The Sabbath was made for man, not just Jews. Another, that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Thus, it is the Lord's Day.

Morever, there were no Jews when God made the 7th Day Holy at creation.

Jesus taught us how to keep it Holy:

Matthew 12:1-13, "1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” 13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus."

Luke 6:6-10, "6 On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled. 7 The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. 8 But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Get up and stand in front of everyone.” So he got up and stood there.

9 Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?” 10 He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He did so, and his hand was completely restored. 11 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus."

Jesus referred to the end of time and gave this warning regarding the Sabbath:

Matthew 24:20, "20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."

Further, Jesus kept the Sabbath regularly:
Luke 4:16-17, "16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written"

The Apostles kept the Sabbath:
Acts 17:2-4, " As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women."

Acts 13:42-48, "42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. 43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
“‘I have made you[f] a light for the Gentiles,
that you[g] may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’[h]48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

Here we Gentile converts keeping the Sabbath.

The Book of Acts alone gives a record of his holding eighty-four meetings upon that day. See Acts 13:14,44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4,11.

God tells us that when the earth is made new again, everyone will worship Him on the Sabbath.

Isaiah 66:22-23, "22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD. "



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Old 04-21-2012, 15:54   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Genesis 2:1-2, "1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

The Sabbath was established at creation as the sign of God's creative power. He blessed it and made it holy.

Before God descended upon Sinai and wrote the 10 commandments with his own hand as we see in:

Exodus 31:18, "When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God."

The examples of God counseling to remember His Holy Day can be seen as follows:


Exodus 5:4-5, “4 Then the king of Egypt said to them, “Mosesand Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to yourlabor.” 5 And Pharaoh said, “Look, the people of the land aremany now, and you make them restfrom their labor!

The term “rest” used by Pharaoh in theoriginal language is built on the word Sabbath. This was well before Sinai, and evidence of the 4thCommandment observance.

Exodus 16:4-5, “4Then the LORD said to Moses, “I will raindown bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gatherenough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they willfollow my instructions. 5 On the sixth day they are to prepare whatthey bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”

Exodus 16:21-30, “21Eachmorning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, itmelted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—twoomers[b] for each person—and theleaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He saidto them, “This is what the LORD commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbathrest, a holy sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil whatyou want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”

24 So they saved it untilmorning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the LORD. You willnot find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are togather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”

27 Nevertheless, some ofthe people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. 28Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long will you[c] refuse to keep my commands andmy instructions? 29 Bear in mind that the LORD has given you theSabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyoneis to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” 30So the people rested on the seventh day.”

Here we have more evidence of the 4th Commandment well beforeSinai.

Spoken by God Himself as he descended on mount Sinai, and written by His very finger we find the 4th Commandment:

Exodus 20:8-11,"
8Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shalllabor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath tothe LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your sonor daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor anyforeigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD madethe heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested onthe seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

It is the only one of the 10 that God clearly said to REMEMBER. Further, He refers back to Genesis 2, where he made the Seventh Day Holy after creation.

What did Jesus have to say about the Sabbath?

Mark 2:23-27, "23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need?26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” 27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Here we have learned two important things. The Sabbath was made for man, not just Jews. Another, that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Thus, it is the Lord's Day.

Morever, there were no Jews when God made the 7th Day Holy at creation.

Jesus taught us how to keep it Holy:

Matthew 12:1-13, "1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” 13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus."

Luke 6:6-10, "6 On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled. 7 The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. 8 But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Get up and stand in front of everyone.” So he got up and stood there.

9 Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?” 10 He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He did so, and his hand was completely restored. 11 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus."

Jesus referred to the end of time and gave this warning regarding the Sabbath:

Matthew 24:20, "20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."

Further, Jesus kept the Sabbath regularly:
Luke 4:16-17, "16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written"

The Apostles kept the Sabbath:
Acts 17:2-4, " As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women."

Acts 13:42-48, "42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. 43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
“‘I have made you[f] a light for the Gentiles,
that you[g] may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’[h]48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

Here we Gentile converts keeping the Sabbath.

The Book of Acts alone gives a record of his holding eighty-four meetings upon that day. See Acts 13:14,44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4,11.

God tells us that when the earth is made new again, everyone will worship Him on the Sabbath.

Isaiah 66:22-23, "22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD. "


Were the second century Christians observing the Sabbath?
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Old 04-21-2012, 16:15   #5
Kingarthurhk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
Were the second century Christians observing the Sabbath?
Here is some historical background on that topic:


It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." - A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77

Early Christians

"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

Early Christians
"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14

2nd Century Christians
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

Early Christians
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

Early Church
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. Paul the Apostle foretold a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.[As I demonstrated above, with Jesus declaring Himself Lord of the Sabbath]

2nd, 3rd, 4th Centuries
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.
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Old 04-21-2012, 16:19   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Here is some historical background on that topic:


It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." - A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77

Early Christians

"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

Early Christians
"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14

2nd Century Christians
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

Early Christians
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

Early Church
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. Paul the Apostle foretold a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.[As I demonstrated above, with Jesus declaring Himself Lord of the Sabbath]

2nd, 3rd, 4th Centuries
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.
Please link me to your sources.
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Old 04-21-2012, 17:27   #7
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Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
Were the second century Christians observing the Sabbath?
Yes, second century Christians were observing the Sabbath. It was not until the fourth century after the Roman Emperor had made it a law to observe the "Day of the Sun" nothing to do with Christianity. The Roman state church followed suit by making it an offense to observe the Sabbath several decades later.

Here is what John Paul II wrote about it, you do consider him to be authoritative don't you:

http://www.cin.org/jp2/diesdomi.html

"64. For several centuries, Christians observed Sunday simply as a day of worship, without being able to give it the specific meaning of Sabbath rest. Only in the fourth century did the civil law of the Roman Empire recognize the weekly recurrence, determining that on "the day of the sun" the judges, the people of the cities and the various trade corporations would not work. "
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Old 04-23-2012, 17:09   #8
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Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Yes, second century Christians were observing the Sabbath. It was not until the fourth century after the Roman Emperor had made it a law to observe the "Day of the Sun" nothing to do with Christianity. The Roman state church followed suit by making it an offense to observe the Sabbath several decades later.

Here is what John Paul II wrote about it, you do consider him to be authoritative don't you:

http://www.cin.org/jp2/diesdomi.html

"64. For several centuries, Christians observed Sunday simply as a day of worship, without being able to give it the specific meaning of Sabbath rest. Only in the fourth century did the civil law of the Roman Empire recognize the weekly recurrence, determining that on "the day of the sun" the judges, the people of the cities and the various trade corporations would not work. "
I dont consider the pope to be authoritative to me, but I do consider that he has some historical knowledge.

When he says fourth century for the change of the Sabbath to Sunday by a church council it squares with what I understand from history.
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Old 04-23-2012, 17:25   #9
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I dont consider the pope to be authoritative to me, but I do consider that he has some historical knowledge.

When he says fourth century for the change of the Sabbath to Sunday by a church council it squares with what I understand from history.
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Old 04-23-2012, 17:35   #10
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I dont consider the pope to be authoritative to me, but I do consider that he has some historical knowledge.

When he says fourth century for the change of the Sabbath to Sunday by a church council it squares with what I understand from history.
Wow, Vic, are you purposefully trying to distort this? In a way, I hope so.
64. For several centuries, Christians observed Sunday simply as a day of worship, without being able to give it the specific meaning of Sabbath rest. Only in the fourth century did the civil law of the Roman Empire recognize the weekly recurrence, determining that on "the day of the sun" the judges, the people of the cities and the various trade corporations would not work. (107) Christians rejoiced to see thus removed the obstacles which until then had sometimes made observance of the Lord's Day heroic. They could now devote themselves to prayer in common without hindrance. (108)

What JPII was saying is that, until the 4th century, Christians were able to worship on Sunday, but were required to work. Observance of the Lord's Day, up until that time, required heroic efforts.

Your attempt to take it out of context is duly noted.
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Old 04-23-2012, 17:35   #11
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John, who wrote the book of Revelation kept the Sabbath. He certainly wasn't a Sunday keeper. He was a similar age to Jesus, writing this book in the AD 90's era and being close to the 90 or so himself. The Lords Day in Rev 1:10 was and is the 7th day Sabbath. If you can kill off all of the Apostles and followers, you can extinguish truth. However a small flame of truth has existed and made it thru time.

Perhaps a bible study on Lucifer would be good so to understand counterfeit worship and the various methods of getting mankind off of truth.
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Old 04-23-2012, 18:17   #12
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John, who wrote the book of Revelation kept the Sabbath. He certainly wasn't a Sunday keeper. He was a similar age to Jesus, writing this book in the AD 90's era and being close to the 90 or so himself. The Lords Day in Rev 1:10 was and is the 7th day Sabbath. If you can kill off all of the Apostles and followers, you can extinguish truth. However a small flame of truth has existed and made it thru time.
No; rather, what's old is new again. The Judaisers have returned in the last couple of centuries.

Here's a good response from LORD'S DAY by James Kiefer :
John, in the Book of Revelation, begins his account of his visions by writing (1:10):

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day....

Comment

Here John speaks of the Lord's Day. What does he mean by this? Some say that the term denotes no particular day, that every day is the Lord's day. But in that event, John's statement means only that he was in the Spirit, with no indication of when. Surely he mentions the Lord's Day with the intent that we shall understand which day he means, and surely he does so because the day is significant, because it is a particularly appropriate day for him to be in the Spirit, a day especially set aside for prayer and praise and rejoicing in the Spirit. Some say that he refers to the Sabbath. But in that event, why does he not simply call it the Sabbath? This would be clear, and it would be standard Jewish custom. It has never been the Jewish custom, in John's day or before or since, to call the Sabbath the Lord's day. However, as we shall see, Christians have consistently used the term to denote the first day of the week. Indeed, I venture to say that, whenever the term is used, and it is clear which day is meant, it is clear that the first day of the week, commonly called Sunday, is meant. Now someone may object that I am here appealing, not to the Holy Scriptures, but to the practice of the post New Testament Church, and that this is not a legitimate authority. To this I reply, that when we wish to know the meaning of any Greek or Hebrew word found in Holy Scripture, we do not hesitate to admit as evidence the use of that word in other authors of that time or shortly before or after. Consider (to take the first example that comes to hand) the words byssos and byssinos, which occur a total of six times in the New Testament, and are translated "(fine) linen". As far as I can see, there is no way to determine, simply by examining the words in their Scriptural context, that they refer to linen rather than, say, to silk. Yet no translator hesitates, because the meaning of the words is well known to us from numerous references in ancient, or for that matter not so ancient, Greek writings. I fail to see why we should not apply the same principle to determine the meaning of the expression, "The Lord's Day," determining its meaning as used by John by noting how other writers of Greek in that age and that corner of the world, and moreover of that faith, used it.

Let us now examine some early references to Christian practice.

Document

Pliny the Younger, governor of Bithynia, reported AD 112 to the Emperor Trajan on the growing sect of Christians and his efforts to suppress them. He says:

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang an anthem to Christ as God, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to commit any wicked deed, but to abstain from all fraud, theft, and adultery, never to break their word, or deny a trust when called on to honor it; after which it was their custom to separate, and then meet again to partake of food, but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.

Comment

The last clause refers to the popular rumor that Christians held cannibal feasts. The letter does not name the day of meeting, but a pre-dawn hymn to Christ would be most appropriate on the day of His resurrection.

Document

When Ignatius of Antioch was being shipped in chains from Antioch to Rome to be put to death there in the arena, he wrote letters to various Christian churches along the route, six of which have been preserved. (A seventh is to an individual, Polycarp of Smyrna, a disciple of the apostle John.) The date is given in most reference works as about 110 AD. Since the emperor was Trajan, the date would have to be 98-117 AD. In chapter 9 of his letter to the Magnesians, he writes:

We have seen how former adherents of the ancient customs have since attained to a new hope, so that they have given up keeping the Sabbath, and now order their lives by the Lord's Day instead the day when life first dawned for us, thanks to Him and His death.

Comment

Here Ignatius speaks of the Lord's Day, and clearly means a day different from the Sabbath, and expects his readers to have no doubt which day he means, and no doubt that this is the day on which Christians worship. Either, at least in Antioch and in Asia Minor, there has been a complete change from Saturday observance to Sunday observance, or else there has been by about 110 a complete change from Saturday observance to XXX day observance, followed within the next 40 years (as we shall see) by a complete change from XXX day to Sunday. Absent any evidence for the double change, it seems probable that around AD 110 the Christians of Syria and Asia Minor observed Sunday, and certain that they did not observe Saturday.

Justin the Martyr, at that time residing in Rome, in his Apology (Defense of the Christians) addressed to the Emperor Antoninus Pius (AD 148-155), appeals to the emperor for a repeal of those laws that prescribe the death penalty for being a Christian. He describes Christian worship, assuring the emperor that the rumors of evil orgies are false. In chapter 67 he writes:

The day of the Sun is the day on which we all gather in a common meeting, because it is the first day, the day on which God, changing darkness and matter, created the world; and it is the day on which Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Kronos, and on the day after that of Kronos, which is the Day of the Sun, He appeared to His Apostles and disciples, and taught them these things which we have also submitted to you for your consideration.

Note: Kronos is the Greek equivalent of the Latin Saturn. Hence the day of Kronos and the day of the Sun are Saturday and Sunday respectively. For the history of the names of the days of the week, the relevance thereof to Bible study, and other matters, send the message, "GET GENESIS PART1 to LISTSERV@UCF1VM".

Comment

Here there is no doubt that Justin is saying that Christians meet regularly on the first day of the week, the day called Sunday, the anniversary of the Resurrection.

Document

Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, wrote a letter between 166 and 174 AD to Soter, Bishop of Rome, fragments of which are preserved by the fourth-century historian Eusebius, including the following:

Today we have observed the Lord's holy day, in which we have read your letter.

Comment

Dionysius does not explicitly tell us which day he means by the Lord's day, but he is in touch with the Roman church, which (as we see from Justin) was accustomed, at least a few years earlier, to observe Sunday. Assuming a similarity of tradition between the two we have probable cause to suppose that the Romans, who we know observed Sunday, called it the Lord's Day, and that the Corinthians, who observed a day they called the Lord's Day, did so on Sunday.

Thus we see many reasons to suppose that the change from Saturday to Sunday as the day of the week particularly devoted to the glory of God, a change that has certainly occurred, was one that took place already in New Testament times, backed by the approval and example of Paul the Apostle and John the Revelator. Moreover, if this change did not have the approval of the Apostles, if they taught the early Christians to keep the Saturday Sabbath, we must account somehow for the fact that the change occurred, that it was universal, and that there is no trace whatsoever of any protest made against the change, or of any individual or group that refused to go along with the change. We find from a very early time disagreement on how to calculate the time at which Easter should be celebrated, with different calendars in use from the second to the fourth centuries, renewed differences in Britain lasting until the late seventh century, and still more differences beginning with the adoption of the Gregorian calendar in 1582. But never before the sixteenth century do we hear of any Christian group that did not require Gentile Christians to be circumcised but did require them to observe a Saturday Sabbath.

Having seen that the Scriptures point to the fact of such a change, and to Apostolic approval of such a change, do they give any sign of the reason for such a change?

One reason why such a change might be reckoned fitting is the difference between Law and Grace. Under the Law, where men are rewarded for good deeds and punished for bad ones, we work for six days and then are rewarded for our efforts by a day of rest at the end of the week. Under Grace, where our well-being is not earned but is a free gift of God, we are given spiritual food and drink on the first day of the week, and are blessed and filled with the Spirit of God, and this makes us so joyful and energetic that we rush out and spontaneously devote the remaining six days of the week to good works.

Having observed that the change from the seventh day to the first is in accordance with the general spirit of each of the Two Covenants, let us consider some explicit Scriptural references to the matter.

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Old 04-23-2012, 19:30   #13
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We aren't Judiaziers, we are followers of Christ, as I pointed out, Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, which make the Sabbath the Lord's Day.

No ammount of Papist Encyclopedia can negate that.

But, I can see why you are clearly very wroth with us, as we are afterall, "heretics". Further, through scripture and by example we endeavor to honor God by obeying the Fourth Commandment.

Next, I can see why you are wroth, because as the Catholic Church has claimed by its own power and authority to command God and change His laws, we stand in clear opposition to its claimed authority.

Historical Accounts
Some of you may be greatly surprised by the explanation I’ve just made, and I’m not going to ask you to believe it blindly. I have before me a multitude of authorities to verify what has been said. Here are historians, Catholics and Protestants, speaking in harmony about what actually took place in the fourth century. After Constantine made the initial pronouncement and legal decree about the change, the Catholic Church reinforced that act in one church council after another. For this reason, many, many official statements from Catholic sources are made, claiming that the church made the change from Saturday to Sunday. But before I read those statements I shall refer to one from the Encyclopedia Britannica under the article, Sunday. Notice: “It was Constantine who first made a law for the proper observance of Sunday and who appointed that it should be regularly celebrated throughout the Roman empire.” Now you can check these statements in your own encyclopedias or go to the library and look into other historical sources.

Here is a statement from Dr. Gilbert Murray, M.A., D.Litt., LLD, FBA, Professor of Greek at Oxford University, who certainly had no ax to grind concerning Christian thought on the Sabbath question. He wrote: “Now since Mithras was the sun, the Unconquered, and the sun was the Royal Star, the religion looked for a king whom it could serve as a representative of Mithras upon earth. The Roman Emperor seemed to be clearly indicated as the true king. In sharp contrast to Christianity, Mithraism recognized Caesar as the bearer of divine grace. It had so much acceptance that it was able to impose on the Christian world its own sun-day in place of the Sabbath; its sun’s birthday, the 25th of December, as the birthday of Jesus.” History of Christianity in the Light of Modern Knowledge.

Looking a bit further into historical statements, Dr. William Frederick says: “The Gentiles were an idolatrous people who worshipped the sun, and Sunday was their most sacred day. Now in order to reach the people in this new field, it seems but natural as well as necessary to make Sunday the rest day of the church. At this time it was necessary for the church to either adopt the Gentile’s day or else have the Gentiles change their day. To change the Gentiles day would have been an offense and stumbling block to them. The church could naturally reach them better by keeping their day.” There it is, friends, a clear explanation by Dr. Frederick as to how this change happened. Another statement very parallel to this one is found in the North British Review.

But let’s move on to a statement from the Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, p. 153. “The church after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath or seventh-day of the week to the first, made the third commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s day.”

Catholicism Takes Credit for the Change
Now a quote from the Catholic Press newspaper in Sidney, Australia. “Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles. From the beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.”

The Catholic Mirror of September 23, 1894, puts it this way: “The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.”

To point up the claims we’re talking about, I want to read from two Catechisms. First, from the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine by Reverend Peter Giermann. “Question: Which is the Sabbath day? Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day. Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

Second, from Reverend Steven Keenan’s Doctrinal Catechism we read this: “Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept? Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day; a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”

Then from Cardinal Gibbons’ book, The Question Box, p.179, “If the Bible is the only guide for the Christian, then the Seventh-day Adventist is right in observing Saturday with the Jew. Is it not strange that those who make the Bible their only teacher should inconsistently follow in this matter the tradition of the Catholic Church?”

One more statement taken from the book, The Faith of Millions, p. 473. “But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn’t it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistency but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text from the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair.”


Daniel prophecies about the AntiChrist power when he states:

Daniel 7:25, "25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.[b] "

I can't think of any intstitution that fits that more clearly.
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Old 04-23-2012, 20:15   #14
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Old 04-23-2012, 21:22   #15
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What JPII was saying is that, until the 4th century, Christians were able to worship on Sunday, but were required to work. Observance of the Lord's Day, up until that time, required heroic efforts.

Your attempt to take it out of context is duly noted.
To be a real Christian, yes, that required heroic efforts in the pagan Roman Empire.

To observe a day that the pagan Romans thought proper to worship the Sun and gave it that name did not require heroic efforts.

There have always been Sabbath keepers as John Paul II attests in his paper. The day among some Christians began to lose its significance and Sunday was substituted in its place. It was not by divine command that Sunday was substituted for the Sabbath
Does God accept substitutions? He wasn't too happy about Cains substitution was He?


http://www.cin.org/jp2/diesdomi.html
"Therefore, if God "sanctifies" the seventh day with a special blessing and makes it "his day" par excellence, this must be understood within the deep dynamic of the dialogue of the Covenant, indeed the dialogue of "marriage". This is the dialogue of love which knows no interruption, yet is never monotonous. In fact, it employs the different registers of love, from the ordinary and indirect to those more intense, which the words of Scripture and the witness of so many mystics do not hesitate to describe in imagery drawn from the experience of married love."

http://www.cin.org/jp2/diesdomi.html
"23. It was this newness which the catechesis of the first centuries stressed as it sought to show the prominence of Sunday relative to the Jewish Sabbath. It was on the Sabbath that the Jewish people had to gather in the synagogue and to rest in the way prescribed by the Law. The Apostles, and in particular Saint Paul, continued initially to attend the synagogue so that there they might proclaim Jesus Christ, commenting upon "the words of the prophets which are read every Sabbath" (Acts 13:27). Some communities observed the Sabbath while also celebrating Sunday. "

http://www.cin.org/jp2/diesdomi.html
"The distinction of Sunday from the Jewish Sabbath grew ever stronger in the mind of the Church, even though there have been times in history when, because the obligation of Sunday rest was so emphasized, the Lord's Day tended to become more like the Sabbath. Moreover, there have always been groups within Christianity which observe both the Sabbath and Sunday as "two brother days".(23)
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Old 04-23-2012, 21:34   #16
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To be a real Christian, yes, that required heroic efforts in the pagan Roman Empire.

To observe a day that the pagan Romans was proper to worship the Sun did not require heroic efforts.

There have always been Sabbath keepers as John Paul II attests in his paper. The day among some Christians began to lose its significance and Sunday was substituted in its place.
Does God accept substitutions? He wasn't too happy about Cains substitution was He?
So, what's the bottom line? Does the same fate await the Sunday crowd as awaits thieves and murderers?

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Old 04-23-2012, 21:45   #17
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So, what's the bottom line? Does the same fate await the Sunday crowd as awaits thieves and murderers?

-ArtificialGrape
One of the great things about God is that He judges the motives and intentions. He knows those that are His. There is no pretending or hiding from Him. He will forgive all sins except for rebellion against the Holy Spirit. He would forgive that except it would make the New Earth the same cesspool as the present world. The Holy Spirit will lead into all Truth.

II Timothy 2:19 Yet the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, [The] Lord knows those that are his; and, Let every one who names the name of [the] Lord withdraw from iniquity.
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Old 04-23-2012, 21:45   #18
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We aren't Judiaziers,
Yes, you are.

Quote:
Daniel prophecies about the AntiChrist power when he states:

Daniel 7:25, "25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.[b] "

I can't think of any intstitution that fits that more clearly.
So Brasso-esque.
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Old 04-23-2012, 21:51   #19
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I always thought it strange that people could not tell the last day of the week from the first day of the week which is actually opposite what God asked for.

lucifer was probably created on the first day of creation week.
lucifer means light bearer. The first day God said, "Let there be light."
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Old 04-23-2012, 22:02   #20
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One of the great things about God is that He judges the motives and intentions. He knows those that are His. There is no pretending or hiding from Him. He will forgive all sins except for rebellion against the Holy Spirit.
So big picture seems to be that it really doesn't matter -- pick a day and be excellent to each other.

As for me, I'm going to keep mowing my front yard on Saturday and the back yard on Sunday, just to be sure.

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