[juggy4711]

Originally Posted by Brasso

Because I believe my Bible. I don't pass that authority off on a man.

Man wrote the Bible so yes in fact you do.

[Vic Hays]

Originally Posted by juggy4711

Man wrote the Bible so yes in fact you do.

There were a couple of things written by God.

1. The Ten Commandments

2. The handwriting on the wall judging Babylon

[juggy4711]

Originally Posted by Vic Hays

There were a couple of things written by God.

1. The Ten Commandments

2. The handwriting on the wall judging Babylon

So you have done a handwriting analysis of those items or you just chose to believe that? I've got no problem with folks that believe what they believe, I chose to do the same myself. I've got a serious problem with folks that won't admit it. You chose to believe what you believe and if that helps you be a better person then God bless.

But to make absolute statements that God did this or that is looney tunes. And before you come back with some Bible passage that doesn't prove jack, take this into consideration. I don't know but I chose to believe and what I chose, I believe helps me be a better person. I can admit it. Can you?

[Schabesbert]

Originally Posted by Vic Hays

So what you are saying is that the Ten Commandments have been done away with and since there is no Remember the Sabbath day commandment in the New Testament it is no longer in effect?

Fortunately for me the Sabbath was made in the Garden of Eden for man. I would sure hate to miss out on that blessing. Or are you saying the Sabbath is a curse not a blessing?

Mark 2:27 And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Indeed, the Sabbath is a blessing. And, in Christ, we have our sabbath rest.

We no longer have just one day for that rest.

Sunday is the fulfillment of the sabbath command:
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

All NT fulfillments are greater than their OT foreshadows. The redemption is greater even then the creation.

Was the Law bad? No. But the NT fulfillment is even greater.

[Vic Hays]

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

Indeed, the Sabbath is a blessing. And, in Christ, we have our sabbath rest.

We no longer have just one day for that rest.

Sunday is the fulfillment of the sabbath command:
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

All NT fulfillments are greater than their OT foreshadows. The redemption is greater even then the creation.

Was the Law bad? No. But the NT fulfillment is even greater.

You have figured out a way to philosophize the Sabbath set up by God Himself and made it of no value so that you can honor Him some other way than He asked.

I John 3:4 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whoever stays in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

[Schabesbert]

Originally Posted by Vic Hays

You have figured out a way to philosophize the Sabbath set up by God Himself and made it of no value so that you can honor Him some other way than He asked.

Not at all. What I'm doing is following the teachings of the Apostles, St. Paul, and the Church who have been entrusted by Jesus to teach.

Vic, you've got to learn to not be an old wineskin. You are unable to accept the new wine of Christ.

[Brasso]

Not at all. What I'm doing is following the teachings of the Apostles, St. Paul, and the Church who have been entrusted by Jesus to teach.

Let's see,

There is no Biblical record of a Sunday Sabbath.
There is no historical record of a Sunday Sabbath. (at least not till later on)
There is no biblical statements giving the Apostles the right to change the commandments. In fact, quite the opposite.
Except for Rome, there aren't any churches of that early period keeping a Sunday Sabbath.

So, you are in fact, Full of It.

[Schabesbert]

Originally Posted by Brasso

Let's see,

There is no Biblical record of a Sunday Sabbath.

That's untrue, but I'll grant that it isn't explicit.

There is no historical record of a Sunday Sabbath. (at least not till later on)

That is absolutely untrue. In fact, there are historical records that are contemporaneous with the writing of the NT itself (i.e. the Didache, and Ignatius of Antioch's Letter to the Magnesians).

You keep denying history and facts.

There is no biblical statements giving the Apostles the right to change the commandments. In fact, quite the opposite.

Not "change" exactly; just follow the spirit of them.
For instance, baptism replaced circumcision. Circumcision was also a sign of the OLD covenant.

Except for Rome, there aren't any churches of that early period keeping a Sunday Sabbath.

You can deny the truth all you'd care to, but it's still there. Facts are that you're quite wrong. See the Didache and Ignatius, above, for some of the earliest mentions.

So, you are in fact, Full of It.

What a Christian!

[randrew379]

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

Indeed, the Sabbath is a blessing. And, in Christ, we have our sabbath rest.

We no longer have just one day for that rest.

Sunday is the fulfillment of the sabbath command:
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

All NT fulfillments are greater than their OT foreshadows. The redemption is greater even then the creation.

Was the Law bad? No. But the NT fulfillment is even greater.

From another post I learned that we have Christianity to thank for modern science. Now I discover it created the two day weekend.

I'm learning alot today.

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

Not at all. What I'm doing is following the teachings of the Apostles, St. Paul, and the Church who have been entrusted by Jesus to teach.

Vic, you've got to learn to not be an old wineskin. You are unable to accept the new wine of Christ.

No Apostle ever taught that. A relgion that embrassed paganism and became apostate in the 4th century; however, did.

[Roering]

Originally Posted by Vic Hays

There were a couple of things written by God.

1. The Ten Commandments

2. The handwriting on the wall judging Babylon

If you believe that all scripture is "God breathed" then couldn't you associate with scripture being written by God?

I always thought it to be the case.

[Brasso]

Not "change" exactly; just follow the spirit of them.
For instance, baptism replaced circumcision. Circumcision was also a sign of the OLD covenant.

Uh huh. That's why it was given to Abraham, because it's a sign of the Mosaic Covenant?

So tiring.

Everything you post is wrong. Everything. Who has the energy to argue with everything?

[aujrb]

I thought I would give it a shot as to explaining my understanding of the Sabbath with respect to the New Covenant.

I was having a hard time harmonizing the eternal commandment of the Sabbath with Paul's writings in Colossians 2 that we not to be held to a Sabbath (or festival or new moon, for that matter) because they are all shadows of Christ.

That was until I did a Precept study of the book of Hebrews. Hebrews 4 explains everything. (Don't worry, I'm not going to post the whole chapter, just try and explain as concisely as possible.)

Heb 4:3 Those who believe (who are saved, who have repented of their sin & trust in Christ for their salvation) enter into the Sabbath rest of God.

vs 4 God rested on the seventh day of creation.

vs 10 Those who enter God's rest, also rest from their works, as God did from His.

I encourage those who are interested to read Hebrews 3 & 4 to get the full context and see how this ties in with the Isrealites who died wondering the desert.

I'm sorry this post is long, but I really hope this clears things up a bit. (or may have made things worse) The bottom line is:

Those who are saved through repentance and faith, enter the rest of God, therefore they perpetually & eternally keep the Sabbath.

[juggy4711]

My guess is that all the confusion over the Sabbath has something to do with daylight savings time.

[rgregoryb]

Originally Posted by juggy4711

My guess is that all the confusion over the Sabbath has something to do with daylight savings time.

so, if you live in Arizona you're safe?

Daylight SAVING Time.....no "S" on the end.............

[juggy4711]

Originally Posted by rgregoryb

so, if you live in Arizona you're safe?

Daylight SAVING Time.....no "S" on the end.............

My point defeated by a grammatical error. NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

[rgregoryb]

Originally Posted by juggy4711

My point defeated by a grammatical error. NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

.........ah, ha...your hopes and dreams dashed upon the rocks of reality.........

[juggy4711]

Originally Posted by rgregoryb

.........ah, ha...your hopes and dreams dashed upon the rocks of reality.........

Every point I make from this point forward will be tainted and considered false because of your superior use of the English language. DAMN YOU!!!!!

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by aujrb

I thought I would give it a shot as to explaining my understanding of the Sabbath with respect to the New Covenant.

I was having a hard time harmonizing the eternal commandment of the Sabbath with Paul's writings in Colossians 2 that we not to be held to a Sabbath (or festival or new moon, for that matter) because they are all shadows of Christ.

That was until I did a Precept study of the book of Hebrews. Hebrews 4 explains everything. (Don't worry, I'm not going to post the whole chapter, just try and explain as concisely as possible.)

Heb 4:3 Those who believe (who are saved, who have repented of their sin & trust in Christ for their salvation) enter into the Sabbath rest of God.

vs 4 God rested on the seventh day of creation.

vs 10 Those who enter God's rest, also rest from their works, as God did from His.

I encourage those who are interested to read Hebrews 3 & 4 to get the full context and see how this ties in with the Isrealites who died wondering the desert.

I'm sorry this post is long, but I really hope this clears things up a bit. (or may have made things worse) The bottom line is:

Those who are saved through repentance and faith, enter the rest of God, therefore they perpetually & eternally keep the Sabbath.

Yes, Hebrews 4 tells us of obtaining spritual rest in Christ, and physical rest on the Seventh Day Sabbath. It in no way sets aside the Sabbath, but, rather confirms it.

[Brasso]

Hebrews is about the Levitical Priesthood. The rest spoken of here is the rest of assurance of salvation thru grace and obedience, as opposed to the way they grieved Him by not having faith. Walking in His Way is called the Way of Liberty by David. Where do you get this stuff?

People seem to forget that the Apostles and Messiah Himself spent the better part of their lives teaching the New Covenant with no help from the N.T. at all. None.

Everything they taught came from the Tanach. So as inspired and great a teaching tool the N.T. may be, it's not necessary to preach the Gospel. You keep forgetting this. And everything they taught is backed up in the Tenach. Paul even commended the Bereans for making sure that everything he taught them could be supported in the Tenach.

Now, you go find me a Sunday Sabbath in there please. Or any change to the Sabbath at all.

Double Dog Dare Ya.

If the Apostles didn't have chutzpa to change God's Laws, what makes you think you can?

[rgregoryb]

Originally Posted by Brasso

If the Apostles didn't have chutzpa to change God's Laws, what makes you think you can?

cause they didn't have the internet.........

[Roering]

Originally Posted by rgregoryb

so, if you live in Arizona you're safe?

From what I've been reading, not if you live below the 8. Them's been turned back into injun country.

[Vic Hays]

Originally Posted by Brasso

If the Apostles didn't have chutzpa to change God's Laws, what makes you think you can?

They "think" they can. This is another fulfillment of prophecy.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it to the end.
7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

[aujrb]

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

Yes, Hebrews 4 tells us of obtaining spritual rest in Christ,

I agree.

and physical rest on the Seventh Day Sabbath.

Respectfully disagree. Please quote the verse in Hebrews 4 that says this and explain the verse in its context.

It in no way sets aside the Sabbath, but, rather confirms it.

If you mean a Sabbath as resting from your works as God did from His, then I agree. If you mean observing the Sabbath on a particular day of the week, then no. That was kind of the whole point of my post.

[aujrb]

Originally Posted by Brasso

Hebrews is about the Levitical Priesthood.

Hebrews is not just about the Levitical Priesthood. A large part of it is how the Levical Priesthood is no longer necessary because we have Jesus as our high priest, and not a mortal man.

The rest spoken of here is the rest of assurance of salvation thru grace and obedience, as opposed to the way they grieved Him by not having faith. Walking in His Way is called the Way of Liberty by David.

What verse is that?

Where do you get this stuff?

Just reading and studying my Bible

People seem to forget that the Apostles and Messiah Himself spent the better part of their lives teaching the New Covenant with no help from the N.T. at all. None.

IF by N.T. you mean New Testament, then I don't understand your statement. Testament and Covenant have the exact same meaning. They are both used by English translators of the Koine Greek word diatheke.

It's like your saying they taught the New Covenant with no help from the New Covenant or New Testament with no help from the New Testament.

Everything they taught came from the Tanach. So as inspired and great a teaching tool the N.T. may be, it's not necessary to preach the Gospel.

Really? Huh.... Not sure if I agree with that statement.

Just out of curiosity, do you consider the NT and OT equally inspired? Do you consider the New Testament Scripture?

You keep forgetting this.

I do? Have we talked about this before?

And everything they taught is backed up in the Tenach. Paul even commended the Bereans for making sure that everything he taught them could be supported in the Tenach.

You may want to read Acts 17 a little bit closer. Paul wasn't quoted commending the Bereans. It was the author of the book describing the Bereans as being noble minded for examining Scripture.

Now, you go find me a Sunday Sabbath in there please. Or any change to the Sabbath at all.

Double Dog Dare Ya.

There is no Sunday Sabbath. There's no Saturday Sabbath either.

The Sabbath of the New Testament (or New Covenant if you wish) is different than the Sabbath of the Old Testament (Covenant).

It is the same in that there is a rest from works. (4:9) It's how you rest from your works. It's the application. OT, rest one day of the week. NT, rest with saving faith.

That was the whole point of the post.

If the Apostles didn't have chutzpa to change God's Laws, what makes you think you can?

Where in my post does it convey the idea that I think I have any authority to change God's Laws? I was just explaining to everybody what the text says.

I mean it's right there. It's hard to miss.

I don't think the 4th commandment in itself has changed, but the observation of the commandment has.

Who changed the observation? The author of Hebrews or more accurately, the Holy Spirit. Not me.