GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-28-2012, 08:56   #1
jdavionic
NRA Member
 
jdavionic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,820
"survivalist" holed up against LE

I'll preface by saying this thread is not intended to judge his innocence or guilt, nor is it meant to wish ill will on any of the people involved. There is another thread for that aspect of the discussion.

The purpose here is look at the situation from purely an S&P perspective. This guy has apparently built a bunker, stockpiled supplies, and prepared for TEOTWAWKI. He is now in a situation where he MAY be trapped by people who want to CAPTURE him (note, that's a key difference versus the extreme that he prepared for).

So you've got one group on the outside with rules to follow and him on the inside.

Any thoughts from an S&P perspective?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/27...valist-bunker/

Some observations -
  • is it a bunker with only one way in & out? something to think about if you're fortunate enough to have land and the ability to build your own.
  • it appears gas masks have served him well
  • water - if he had a gas mask, i'd assume he also has a good supply of water. Those that are hunting him are going to be unwilling to give up. without water, he'd have to poke out eventually. In a TEOTWAWKI, how long do you think a group would wait before either moving up or taking more dramatic & destructive steps?
  • if they "can see movement", is it really that good of a bunker?
  • air source - where is he getting it from and how well protected is it?
Anyway...these are just some initial thoughts along the lines that I was thinking would be of interest here.

What are yours?
__________________
- JD

"No matter how bad it gets, if you're still alive it's just another bad day."
jdavionic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 09:13   #2
Ronaldo
Ancient Member
 
Ronaldo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Free Republic of Tejas
Posts: 1,380
I'm less concerned about what he may or may not have done then the media relentlessly labeling suspects as 'survivalists.'

This term is being made into a pejorative description, and not at all representing what survivalism (or perparedness) is all about.

Just like the word 'gay', it has been transformed into something evil and unnatural.

I have no respect for the media and indeed, consider it to be nothing but a shill and ancillary prostitute to the government, only serving the purpose of disseminating lies and distortions to aid the powers-that-be. Just another inaccurate and untruthful supplier of liberal and statist propaganda.

Ronaldo
__________________
'That which does not kill us, makes us stronger' - Nietzche

'Blood and Chocolate - in the dark, you can't tell the difference'

Last edited by Ronaldo; 04-28-2012 at 09:13..
Ronaldo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 09:22   #3
Aceman
Senior Member
 
Aceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa
Posts: 6,386
They might "see" movement with all sorts of IR/UV/Sound goodies....
Aceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 09:29   #4
jdavionic
NRA Member
 
jdavionic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,820
I'd be curious how they found the bunker. The photo doesn't look like something that was taken as part of the current situation. So did he post & boast about his bunker? This is often a topic discussed...telling neighbors & friends too much info, etc.
__________________
- JD

"No matter how bad it gets, if you're still alive it's just another bad day."
jdavionic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 09:34   #5
wrenrj1
Senior Member
 
wrenrj1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Huskerville
Posts: 10,166
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdavionic View Post
I'd be curious how they found the bunker. The photo doesn't look like something that was taken as part of the current situation. So did he post & boast about his bunker? This is often a topic discussed...telling neighbors & friends too much info, etc.
He had pics of the bunker and info. on the location at home according to the article I read.
__________________
We are told by our government NOT to judge Muslims by the actions of a few crazies. We are also told by this same government TO judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few crazies.
wrenrj1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 09:35   #6
jdavionic
NRA Member
 
jdavionic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,820
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrenrj1 View Post
He had pics of the bunker and info. on the location at home according to the article I read.
Thanks.
__________________
- JD

"No matter how bad it gets, if you're still alive it's just another bad day."
jdavionic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 10:20   #7
UneasyRider
C.D.B.
 
UneasyRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,746
Nobody makes a bunker without a back end tunnel, do they? I mean I am just guessing as I have no practical experience but it would make sense to me.
__________________
"Freedom ain't Free" Ted Nugent at the House of Blues in Orlando.

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of arms." - Aristotle,
UneasyRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 11:17   #8
Devans0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Iowa
Posts: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by UneasyRider View Post
Nobody makes a bunker without a back end tunnel, do they? I mean I am just guessing as I have no practical experience but it would make sense to me.
A tunnel would be too expensive to me. I don't see much difference between a jail cell and being bunkered up long term. "Course that is conjecture. I haven't done either one.
Devans0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 12:22   #9
kirgi08
Silver Membership
Watcher.
 
kirgi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Acme proving grounds.
Posts: 26,722
Blog Entries: 1


I believe they found the body.'08.
__________________
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

If you look like food,You will be eaten.

Rip Chad.You will be missed.
kirgi08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 12:32   #10
BORNGEARHEAD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 970
Innocent until proven guilty.
BORNGEARHEAD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 13:01   #11
BORNGEARHEAD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 970
Anybody get the feeling that the media is gonna start painting "survivalists"?
BORNGEARHEAD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 13:30   #12
jdavionic
NRA Member
 
jdavionic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,820
Quote:
Originally Posted by BORNGEARHEAD View Post
Anybody get the feeling that the media is gonna start painting "survivalists"?
That's been the trend for some time now...Doomsday Preppers is not about offering a show about preppers for preppers. It's all about portraying preppers as irrational radicals.
__________________
- JD

"No matter how bad it gets, if you're still alive it's just another bad day."
jdavionic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 13:45   #13
Aceman
Senior Member
 
Aceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa
Posts: 6,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by UneasyRider View Post
Nobody makes a bunker without a back end tunnel, do they? I mean I am just guessing as I have no practical experience but it would make sense to me.
again - goes to my argument; wack job.

Prepper, perhaps.
Survivalist, maybe.
Nut job idiot - DEFINITELY.


His "bunker" looks like a very well dug hole in the ground, honestly. And this gets back to my whole Doomsday prpper issue - MOST people going to this level of effort are not well balanced / sensible. They are 200% on some issues, and 20% on others.

No escape hatch = fail.

And the whole POINT of this activity is to SURVIVE. Offing yourself is second to last on my list of acceptible prepper activities, right before Be eaten alive/crushed by asteroid/go down shooting, etc...by whatever it is you are surviving against.

On that note also, the Doomsday preppers are part of the "Extreme" series....so of course they put the wack jobs on. They make for the best TV.

No one wants to see a house with a .357 and and 870, 30 days of dried food that is stored, and a bag with basic survival gear packed.

I'd really like to see detailed maps/pics of his hidey-hole!
Aceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 16:38   #14
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,170
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
The problem with a back door, is that you now have to conceal, defend, and build a second entrance, as well as worry about keeping it closed. And unless you've got a huge pile of money, there isn't a real lot of use for one, in this sort of instance, because the police cordon is typically big enough to encompass any realistic escape hatch distance.


If they were using thermal, which I'm sure they were from a helicopter or something, a wooden hatch would be fairly easy to spot, unless he was a solid pro at concealing his location, and knew what they would be using to ID the location.
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 19:10   #15
UneasyRider
C.D.B.
 
UneasyRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
The problem with a back door, is that you now have to conceal, defend, and build a second entrance, as well as worry about keeping it closed. And unless you've got a huge pile of money, there isn't a real lot of use for one, in this sort of instance, because the police cordon is typically big enough to encompass any realistic escape hatch distance.


If they were using thermal, which I'm sure they were from a helicopter or something, a wooden hatch would be fairly easy to spot, unless he was a solid pro at concealing his location, and knew what they would be using to ID the location.
It's really not that hard (conceptually) to put a 3 foot diameter pipe in a deep trench for some distance, especially if you were to build into an existing crevice or cranny and cover it with earth. A backhoe would do a nice job of this. At the end one might try a T in the pipe going vertically say 4 feet up and four feet below. The downward hinged steel doors on the top pipe could be nicely covered with a wooden frame of the same diameter filled with sand so that when the doors drop open the sand falls into the trap and six inches of top soil and grass is all that keeps you from getting out the back door.
__________________
"Freedom ain't Free" Ted Nugent at the House of Blues in Orlando.

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of arms." - Aristotle,
UneasyRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 19:16   #16
pugman
Senior Member
 
pugman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,023
Quote:
Originally Posted by BORNGEARHEAD View Post
Innocent until proven guilty.
While I agree on this...hard to believe he wasn't guilty. Not that it really matters now since he shot himself.

Way to many questions which can't be answered without pointing to his guilt.

If he didn't kill them...why was he hiding in his bunker? It is a possibility he was running for his life from someone who did in fact kill them?

However, even if this is true when he was finally surrounded by the police - why not give himself up.

At the very least this guy was imbalanced and played some hand in it. If he wasn't the trigger man, something he said or did resulted in his beautiful wife and daughter being slain.
__________________
Now when asked when I think things will change I answer "The next time Thomas (aka the fed) robs Peter (aka the 53%) to pay Paul (aka the 47%) and Peter pulls a gun...things will change"

Last edited by pugman; 04-28-2012 at 19:17..
pugman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 20:03   #17
TangoFoxtrot
OIF 04-05
 
TangoFoxtrot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Nowhereville, USA
Posts: 4,033
Blog Entries: 2
Another problem is the news source...FOXnews.
__________________
G21 Club: 0685 -Tact. SG 7048
S/P Club: 109 - .40 Club: 0255
Black Rifle-SWMP15S1647
TangoFoxtrot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2012, 06:12   #18
SFCSMITH(RET)
Senior Member
 
SFCSMITH(RET)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 2,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by BORNGEARHEAD View Post
Anybody get the feeling that the media is gonna start painting "survivalists"?
You need to get out of the garage more often..

as far as the build itself..

If I was building a hiding place, just as a hiding place, not expecting or planning to use/need it against well equipped SWAT teams and such, but just as SHTF hole up, I may not bother with grenade sumps/convergent fields of fire/escape tunnels etc.

Or it could be he had not gotten to building them yet. Who here is "done"?

And while lots of ideas have been raised about how he could have done better/ best way to add tunnels etc.. doing it by hand, on the sly, in a rain forest, alone.. unless you have ever tried to do such a thing.. well...

Not saying I have, no rain forest here..

Last edited by SFCSMITH(RET); 04-29-2012 at 06:13..
SFCSMITH(RET) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2012, 12:41   #19
kirgi08
Silver Membership
Watcher.
 
kirgi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Acme proving grounds.
Posts: 26,722
Blog Entries: 1


Quote:
Originally Posted by SFCSMITH(RET) View Post
You need to get out of the garage more often..

as far as the build itself..

If I was building a hiding place, just as a hiding place, not expecting or planning to use/need it against well equipped SWAT teams and such, but just as SHTF hole up, I may not bother with grenade sumps/convergent fields of fire/escape tunnels etc.

Or it could be he had not gotten to building them yet. Who here is "done"?

And while lots of ideas have been raised about how he could have done better/ best way to add tunnels etc.. doing it by hand, on the sly, in a rain forest, alone.. unless you have ever tried to do such a thing.. well...

Not saying I have, no rain forest here..
__________________
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

If you look like food,You will be eaten.

Rip Chad.You will be missed.
kirgi08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2012, 14:22   #20
jdavionic
NRA Member
 
jdavionic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,820
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFCSMITH(RET) View Post
And while lots of ideas have been raised about how he could have done better/ best way to add tunnels etc.. doing it by hand, on the sly, in a rain forest, alone.. unless you have ever tried to do such a thing.. well...

Not saying I have, no rain forest here..
Well, as I said in the OP...just looking to learn.

For a bunker of that type, is that something you'd want to have an "escape" tunnel? What are the pros & cons? More people are looking at using buried shipping containers as a bunker (including a good friend of mine). Not sure it makes sense or not.

Gas masks...just another example of why one is good to have.

Seeing movement within his bunker...this one is interesting. I guess it depends on the intent of your bunker. Some people build them with the intent to be able to hide in a relatively secure place until things calm down. Others build to survive an attack. Some do both. Who knows what this guy's rationale was for the construction.

Air source...once the place is discovered, attacking the air source would be a key source of vulnerability if you didn't plan well.
__________________
- JD

"No matter how bad it gets, if you're still alive it's just another bad day."
jdavionic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2012, 17:07   #21
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,170
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by UneasyRider View Post
It's really not that hard (conceptually) to put a 3 foot diameter pipe in a deep trench for some distance, especially if you were to build into an existing crevice or cranny and cover it with earth. A backhoe would do a nice job of this. At the end one might try a T in the pipe going vertically say 4 feet up and four feet below. The downward hinged steel doors on the top pipe could be nicely covered with a wooden frame of the same diameter filled with sand so that when the doors drop open the sand falls into the trap and six inches of top soil and grass is all that keeps you from getting out the back door.

That would work, but moving any real length of 3 ft diameter pipe, assembling at the site, and getting the area dug, and re-covered without anyone noticing, while still concealing the job is the bear.


But I agree, it can be done.
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2012, 23:01   #22
Allfal
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by UneasyRider View Post
Nobody makes a bunker without a back end tunnel, do they? I mean I am just guessing as I have no practical experience but it would make sense to me.
PACE. Primary, alternative, contingent, exigent. His 2nd biggest mistake, other than the alleged homicide, was sharing the info. His 1st was PACE.
Allfal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 06:29   #23
beatcop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 1,884
Guy was just a criminal looking for a hole to hide in...nothing more.

-there will always be some fool the media will locate who will provide a "factual" quote about you...your co-workers aren't your friends.
beatcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 07:08   #24
DustyJacket
Gold Membership
Directiv 10-289
 
DustyJacket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Missouri, East of KC
Posts: 5,987
They first got the general location because they smelled the wood smoke from the bunker. Something to think about.

Looks like he had ventilation (from the photos) but he had a dirt floor and dirt walls covered by wood. There must have been a lot of humidity in there. Not good for supplies and metal objects.

It was a good start, though.

I have only lightly considered a back door to my thoughts (fantasy?) of a shelter, but it is a go0d idea, especially if debris from a tornado or a fire block the main door.


Survival/Preparedness Forum


His ammo was in plastic bags, though.
Didn't see any photos on CNN of food and water. That would have been interesting.

Survival/Preparedness Forum
__________________
"...our quick technology allows use to indulge our deepest stupidity and tastelessness with out first thinking...."

Last edited by DustyJacket; 04-30-2012 at 08:57.. Reason: photos
DustyJacket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 07:24   #25
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,170
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
Having a wood stove, would have helped with the humidity, because they'll actually pull water out of the air.
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:34.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,258
341 Members
917 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42