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Old 04-28-2012, 14:21   #1
Kingarthurhk
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Religious Issues
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Old 04-28-2012, 14:34   #2
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Religious Issues
... and the response from Headquarters.
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Old 04-28-2012, 19:01   #3
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... and the response from Headquarters.
Indeed the response from Headquarters could be quite "firey"








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Old 04-28-2012, 19:15   #4
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Would you feel better if I responded by highlighting the Catholics who were hanged, gutted, and drawn and quartered by Protestants?
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Old 04-28-2012, 19:18   #5
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Your Doctorate Oral Presentation doesn't seem so bad now, does it? Everything is relative.
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Old 04-28-2012, 20:19   #6
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What is with this christian preoccupation with nailing things to wood?
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Old 04-28-2012, 21:03   #7
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What is with this christian preoccupation with nailing things to wood?
Well, their God's stepfather was a carpenter.
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Old 04-28-2012, 21:11   #8
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Would you feel better if I responded by highlighting the Catholics who were hanged, gutted, and drawn and quartered by Protestants?

http://www.biblestudytools.com/histo...ok-of-martyrs/
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Old 04-28-2012, 21:12   #9
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What is with this christian preoccupation with nailing things to wood?
That's more of a Roman thing.
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Old 04-28-2012, 21:17   #10
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Old 04-28-2012, 21:23   #11
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Please direct me to Foxe's primary source material.
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Old 04-29-2012, 09:50   #12
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Religious Issues
It is interesting what was on Luther's 95 thesis that he nailed to the church door. It was mostly against the selling of indulgences. Luther learned from his study of the Bible that salvation was a free gift from God. It did not need to be purchased from men who claimed the authority of God.

Here they are:

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm

"
Disputation on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences Commonly Known as The 95 Theses
by Dr. Martin Luther

Out of love and concern for the truth, and with the object of eliciting it, the following heads will be the subject of a public discussion at Wittenberg under the presidency of the reverend father, Martin Luther, Augustinian, Master of Arts and Sacred Theology, and duly appointed Lecturer on these subjects in that place. He requests that whoever cannot be present personally to debate the matter orally will do so in absence in writing.
When our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, said "Repent", He called for the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.
The word cannot be properly understood as referring to the sacrament of penance, i.e. confession and satisfaction, as administered by the clergy.
Yet its meaning is not restricted to repentance in one's heart; for such repentance is null unless it produces outward signs in various mortifications of the flesh.
As long as hatred of self abides (i.e. true inward repentance) the penalty of sin abides, viz., until we enter the kingdom of heaven.
The pope has neither the will nor the power to remit any penalties beyond those imposed either at his own discretion or by canon law.
The pope himself cannot remit guilt, but only declare and confirm that it has been remitted by God; or, at most, he can remit it in cases reserved to his discretion. Except for these cases, the guilt remains untouched.
God never remits guilt to anyone without, at the same time, making him humbly submissive to the priest, His representative.
The penitential canons apply only to men who are still alive, and, according to the canons themselves, none applies to the dead.
Accordingly, the Holy Spirit, acting in the person of the pope, manifests grace to us, by the fact that the papal regulations always cease to apply at death, or in any hard case.
It is a wrongful act, due to ignorance, when priests retain the canonical penalties on the dead in purgatory.
When canonical penalties were changed and made to apply to purgatory, surely it would seem that tares were sown while the bishops were asleep.
In former days, the canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before absolution was pronounced; and were intended to be tests of true contrition.
Death puts an end to all the claims of the Church; even the dying are already dead to the canon laws, and are no longer bound by them.
Defective piety or love in a dying person is necessarily accompanied by great fear, which is greatest where the piety or love is least.
This fear or horror is sufficient in itself, whatever else might be said, to constitute the pain of purgatory, since it approaches very closely to the horror of despair.
There seems to be the same difference between hell, purgatory, and heaven as between despair, uncertainty, and assurance.
Of a truth, the pains of souls in purgatory ought to be abated, and charity ought to be proportionately increased.
Moreover, it does not seem proved, on any grounds of reason or Scripture, that these souls are outside the state of merit, or unable to grow in grace.
Nor does it seem proved to be always the case that they are certain and assured of salvation, even if we are very certain ourselves.
Therefore the pope, in speaking of the plenary remission of all penalties, does not mean "all" in the strict sense, but only those imposed by himself.
Hence those who preach indulgences are in error when they say that a man is absolved and saved from every penalty by the pope's indulgences.
Indeed, he cannot remit to souls in purgatory any penalty which canon law declares should be suffered in the present life.
If plenary remission could be granted to anyone at all, it would be only in the cases of the most perfect, i.e. to very few.
It must therefore be the case that the major part of the people are deceived by that indiscriminate and high-sounding promise of relief from penalty.
The same power as the pope exercises in general over purgatory is exercised in particular by every single bishop in his bishopric and priest in his parish.
The pope does excellently when he grants remission to the souls in purgatory on account of intercessions made on their behalf, and not by the power of the keys (which he cannot exercise for them).
There is no divine authority for preaching that the soul flies out of the purgatory immediately the money clinks in the bottom of the chest.
It is certainly possible that when the money clinks in the bottom of the chest avarice and greed increase; but when the church offers intercession, all depends in the will of God.
Who knows whether all souls in purgatory wish to be redeemed in view of what is said of St. Severinus and St. Pascal? (Note: Paschal I, pope 817-24. The legend is that he and Severinus were willing to endure the pains of purgatory for the benefit of the faithful).
No one is sure of the reality of his own contrition, much less of receiving plenary forgiveness.
One who bona fide buys indulgence is a rare as a bona fide penitent man, i.e. very rare indeed.
All those who believe themselves certain of their own salvation by means of letters of indulgence, will be eternally damned, together with their teachers.
We should be most carefully on our guard against those who say that the papal indulgences are an inestimable divine gift, and that a man is reconciled to God by them.
For the grace conveyed by these indulgences relates simply to the penalties of the sacramental "satisfactions" decreed merely by man.
It is not in accordance with Christian doctrines to preach and teach that those who buy off souls, or purchase confessional licenses, have no need to repent of their own sins.
Any Christian whatsoever, who is truly repentant, enjoys plenary remission from penalty and guilt, and this is given him without letters of indulgence.
Any true Christian whatsoever, living or dead, participates in all the benefits of Christ and the Church; and this participation is granted to him by God without letters of indulgence.
Yet the pope's remission and dispensation are in no way to be despised, for, as already said, they proclaim the divine remission.
It is very difficult, even for the most learned theologians, to extol to the people the great bounty contained in the indulgences, while, at the same time, praising contrition as a virtue.
A truly contrite sinner seeks out, and loves to pay, the penalties of his sins; whereas the very multitude of indulgences dulls men's consciences, and tends to make them hate the penalties.
Papal indulgences should only be preached with caution, lest people gain a wrong understanding, and think that they are preferable to other good works: those of love.
Christians should be taught that the pope does not at all intend that the purchase of indulgences should be understood as at all comparable with the works of mercy.
Christians should be taught that one who gives to the poor, or lends to the needy, does a better action than if he purchases indulgences.
Because, by works of love, love grows and a man becomes a better man; whereas, by indulgences, he does not become a better man, but only escapes certain penalties.
Christians should be taught that he who sees a needy person, but passes him by although he gives money for indulgences, gains no benefit from the pope's pardon, but only incurs the wrath of God.
Christians should be taught that, unless they have more than they need, they are bound to retain what is only necessary for the upkeep of their home, and should in no way squander it on indulgences.
Christians should be taught that they purchase indulgences voluntarily, and are not under obligation to do so.
Christians should be taught that, in granting indulgences, the pope has more need, and more desire, for devout prayer on his own behalf than for ready money.
Christians should be taught that the pope's indulgences are useful only if one does not rely on them, but most harmful if one loses the fear of God through them.
Christians should be taught that, if the pope knew the exactions of the indulgence-preachers, he would rather the church of St. Peter were reduced to ashes than be built with the skin, flesh, and bones of the sheep.
Christians should be taught that the pope would be willing, as he ought if necessity should arise, to sell the church of St. Peter, and give, too, his own money to many of those from whom the pardon-merchants conjure money.
It is vain to rely on salvation by letters of indulgence, even if the commissary, or indeed the pope himself, were to pledge his own soul for their validity.
Those are enemies of Christ and the pope who forbid the word of God to be preached at all in some churches, in order that indulgences may be preached in others.
The word of God suffers injury if, in the same sermon, an equal or longer time is devoted to indulgences than to that word.
The pope cannot help taking the view that if indulgences (very small matters) are celebrated by one bell, one pageant, or one ceremony, the gospel (a very great matter) should be preached to the accompaniment of a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.
The treasures of the church, out of which the pope dispenses indulgences, are not sufficiently spoken of or known among the people of Christ.
That these treasures are not temporal are clear from the fact that many of the merchants do not grant them freely, but only collect them.
Nor are they the merits of Christ and the saints, because, even apart from the pope, these merits are always working grace in the inner man, and working the cross, death, and hell in the outer man.
St. Laurence said that the poor were the treasures of the church, but he used the term in accordance with the custom of his own time.
We do not speak rashly in saying that the treasures of the church are the keys of the church, and are bestowed by the merits of Christ.
For it is clear that the power of the pope suffices, by itself, for the remission of penalties and reserved cases.
The true treasure of the church is the Holy gospel of the glory and the grace of God.
It is right to regard this treasure as most odious, for it makes the first to be the last.
On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is most acceptable, for it makes the last to be the first.
Therefore the treasures of the gospel are nets which, in former times, they used to fish for men of wealth.
The treasures of the indulgences are the nets which to-day they use to fish for the wealth of men.
The indulgences, which the merchants extol as the greatest of favours, are seen to be, in fact, a favourite means for money-getting.
Nevertheless, they are not to be compared with the grace of God and the compassion shown in the Cross.
Bishops and curates, in duty bound, must receive the commissaries of the papal indulgences with all reverence.
But they are under a much greater obligation to watch closely and attend carefully lest these men preach their own fancies instead of what the pope commissioned.
Let him be anathema and accursed who denies the apostolic character of the indulgences.
On the other hand, let him be blessed who is on his guard against the wantonness and license of the pardon-merchant's words.
In the same way, the pope rightly excommunicates those who make any plans to the detriment of the trade in indulgences.
It is much more in keeping with his views to excommunicate those who use the pretext of indulgences to plot anything to the detriment of holy love and truth.
It is foolish to think that papal indulgences have so much power that they can absolve a man even if he has done the impossible and violated the mother of God.
We assert the contrary, and say that the pope's pardons are not able to remove the least venial of sins as far as their guilt is concerned.
When it is said that not even St. Peter, if he were now pope, could grant a greater grace, it is blasphemy against St. Peter and the pope.
We assert the contrary, and say that he, and any pope whatever, possesses greater graces, viz., the gospel, spiritual powers, gifts of healing, etc., as is declared in I Corinthians 12 [:28].
It is blasphemy to say that the insignia of the cross with the papal arms are of equal value to the cross on which Christ died.
The bishops, curates, and theologians, who permit assertions of that kind to be made to the people without let or hindrance, will have to answer for it.
This unbridled preaching of indulgences makes it difficult for learned men to guard the respect due to the pope against false accusations, or at least from the keen criticisms of the laity.
They ask, e.g.: Why does not the pope liberate everyone from purgatory for the sake of love (a most holy thing) and because of the supreme necessity of their souls? This would be morally the best of all reasons. Meanwhile he redeems innumerable souls for money, a most perishable thing, with which to build St. Peter's church, a very minor purpose.
Again: Why should funeral and anniversary masses for the dead continue to be said? And why does not the pope repay, or permit to be repaid, the benefactions instituted for these purposes, since it is wrong to pray for those souls who are now redeemed?
Again: Surely this is a new sort of compassion, on the part of God and the pope, when an impious man, an enemy of God, is allowed to pay money to redeem a devout soul, a friend of God; while yet that devout and beloved soul is not allowed to be redeemed without payment, for love's sake, and just because of its need of redemption.
Again: Why are the penitential canon laws, which in fact, if not in practice, have long been obsolete and dead in themselves,—why are they, to-day, still used in imposing fines in money, through the granting of indulgences, as if all the penitential canons were fully operative?
Again: since the pope's income to-day is larger than that of the wealthiest of wealthy men, why does he not build this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of indigent believers?
Again: What does the pope remit or dispense to people who, by their perfect repentance, have a right to plenary remission or dispensation?
Again: Surely a greater good could be done to the church if the pope were to bestow these remissions and dispensations, not once, as now, but a hundred times a day, for the benefit of any believer whatever.
What the pope seeks by indulgences is not money, but rather the salvation of souls; why then does he suspend the letters and indulgences formerly conceded, and still as efficacious as ever?
These questions are serious matters of conscience to the laity. To suppress them by force alone, and not to refute them by giving reasons, is to expose the church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies, and to make Christian people unhappy.
If therefore, indulgences were preached in accordance with the spirit and mind of the pope, all these difficulties would be easily overcome, and indeed, cease to exist.
Away, then, with those prophets who say to Christ's people, "Peace, peace," where in there is no peace.
Hail, hail to all those prophets who say to Christ's people, "The cross, the cross," where there is no cross.
Christians should be exhorted to be zealous to follow Christ, their Head, through penalties, deaths, and hells.
And let them thus be more confident of entering heaven through many tribulations rather than through a false assurance of peace."
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:59   #13
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It is interesting what was on Luther's 95 thesis that he nailed to the church door. It was mostly against the selling of indulgences. Luther learned from his study of the Bible that salvation was a free gift from God. It did not need to be purchased from men who claimed the authority of God. [ ... ]
What are these "indulgences" to which you refer? How are they sold?
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:24   #14
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What are these "indulgences" to which you refer? How are they sold?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence#Abuses
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:36   #15
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How does this address my questions to Vic?
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:08   #16
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How does this address my questions to Vic?
He was merely attempting to help you with your confusion. He was simply being helpful.
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Old 04-29-2012, 13:05   #17
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That's more of a Roman thing.
Ok, that was funny! Carry on!

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Old 04-29-2012, 14:32   #18
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He was merely attempting to help you with your confusion. He was simply being helpful.
Instead of being a wise guy, show Foxe's primary sources.
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Old 04-29-2012, 14:44   #19
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Instead of being a wise guy, show Foxe's primary sources.
Wise, perhaps. A "wise guy" no, my Jesuit friend.
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Old 04-29-2012, 15:48   #20
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Can someone please save me three hours of reading here and tell if theses guys hare bagging on us Catholics...again?
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Old 04-29-2012, 18:03   #21
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Can someone please save me three hours of reading here and tell if theses guys hare bagging on us Catholics...again?
Actually, it is the converse.
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Old 04-29-2012, 19:34   #22
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Actually, it is the converse.
What's this got to do with tennis shoes?


And how has the catholic church disturbed you in any way?
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Old 04-30-2012, 14:48   #23
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Can someone please save me three hours of reading here and tell if theses guys hare bagging on us Catholics...again?
My post was not intended to "bag on Catholics".

It just seems a little silly to me to pretend that you don't know what indulgences are, or that various humans abused them (by selling them for money, stating that they were indulgences for future sins (which to my understanding is not how they are actually defined by Catholic theology, although I'm not a Catholic so if that's wrong, set me straight), etc), or that this is (at least part of) what Luther was objecting to.
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Old 04-30-2012, 14:58   #24
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My post was not intended to "bag on Catholics".

It just seems a little silly to me to pretend that you don't know what indulgences are,
Who pretended that?

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or that various humans abused them (by selling them for money, stating that they were indulgences for future sins
Cite your primary sources.
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Old 04-30-2012, 15:23   #25
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Who pretended that?
Well, I suppose it's true that you weren't honestly asking. It still seems like a silly question, given that this all can be researched online in about 30 seconds or so with the right queries.

Quote:
Cite your primary sources.
Is the Catholic Encyclopedia sufficient? It's not a primary source, really, but if you don't accept a book whose apparent purpose was to explain various things from a Catholic point of view as truthful, that will at least tell me a bit about your strategy of argument.

Quote:
It may seem strange that the doctrine of indulgences should have proved such a stumbling-block, and excited so much prejudice and opposition. But the explanation of this may be found in the abuses which unhappily have been associated with what is in itself a salutary practice. In this respect of course indulgences are not exceptional: no institution, however holy, has entirely escaped abuse through the malice or unworthiness of man.
Quote:
On the other hand, those who granted indulgences might be tempted to make them a means of raising money: and, even where the rulers of the Church were free from blame in this matter, there was room for corruption in their officials and agents, or among the popular preachers of indulgences.
Quote:
In the Bull "Exsurge Domine", 15 June, 1520, Leo X condemned Luther's assertions that "Indulgences are pious frauds of the faithful"; and that "Indulgences do not avail those who really gain them for the remission of the penalty due to actual sin in the sight of God's justice "
Edit:
Quote:
In 1567 St. Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions.
(I quote this here to make the point that, if no money was involved, why would there need to be a such a cancellation?)


http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6095

I mean, it's pretty clear -> The Catholic church has as part of it's theology something called an "indulgence", human people (some of which were part of that organization) committed abuses of that doctrine, sometimes selling them for money, Luther objected to the entirety of the concept, along with some other things, that lead to the Reformation. The Church went and revoked some of the abusive indulgences in various councils, etc.

Edit: it seems a bit ridiculous to me that there's even argument here. Again, this is not to slam Catholics, it's just pretty clear that what happened, happened.
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"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 04-30-2012 at 15:32..
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