GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-03-2012, 06:44   #126
Paul7
New Guy
 
Paul7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East of Eden
Posts: 13,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Let's take a look at the new thread One in Seven thinks End of World is Coming. Does anyone here believe that these one in seven that think the world will end in their lifetime are voting for funding for long term scientific research?
No, but they're probably giving more to charitable causes than you atheists, according to research.
__________________
I dont believe that people should be able to own guns. Obama to John R. Lott Jr. in a private conversation at the University of Chicago.
Paul7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 06:53   #127
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 13,392


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul7 View Post
No, but they're probably giving more to charitable causes than you atheists, according to research.
Well then, you should start a thread entitled "How atheism harms charitable causes" because you might actually have a valid point on that one.
__________________
CavDoc: "If you have to pretend that a person with a different opinion has an opinion other than his own in order to score points in an argument, you've forfeited any points that you pretended to have."
CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."
Geko45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 10:00   #128
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
You're selectively quoting. Would you argue that my stepping on a carpet nail is not harm to myself?

If not, why are you ignoring the example I gave that compared stepping on a carpet nail to being stabbed to death?




Oh, right ... because it doesn't fit the argument you want to make. You want to pretend that I am obstinately claiming that there's no harm, rather than address the point I actually did make, which is to say that the scale of the harms is different enough that there's no point in comparing them.
You agree with my statement then that the scientific community, religion, and other various organizations harm scientific progress?

You agree with that?

If so I'd really like to discuss which does more harm as I'd like to factor in what religion has done to help scientific progress through endowments for research, opening Universities, Hospitals and research facilities all over the world, the part they played in the Renaissance period, etc. etc.

I may make the argument that science is further along now than it would be without religion.
__________________
=================================
Warranty voiding

Last edited by Roering; 05-03-2012 at 10:04..
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 10:14   #129
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Let's take a look at the new thread One in Seven thinks End of World is Coming. Does anyone here believe that these one in seven that think the world will end in their lifetime are voting for funding for long term scientific research?
Well probably not, but unless the rules of math have significantly changed 1 in 7 still isn't a majority so......
__________________
=================================
Warranty voiding
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 10:21   #130
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 13,392


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
Well probably not, but unless the rules of math have significantly changed 1 in 7 still isn't a majority so......
And the 1 in 7 aren't all encompassing of the group of people that vote their religous beliefs, so...

Even if they aren't a majority, they still represent a signifcant voting block that any candidate is going to either have to placate (or completely abandon) in order to stay in office.
__________________
CavDoc: "If you have to pretend that a person with a different opinion has an opinion other than his own in order to score points in an argument, you've forfeited any points that you pretended to have."
CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."
Geko45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 10:29   #131
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
And the 1 in 7 aren't all encompassing of the group of people that vote their religous beliefs, so...

Even if they aren't a majority, they still represent a signifcant voting block that any candidate is going to either have to placate (or completely abandon) in order to stay in office.
Point taken. But then again there are a lot of demographics that a candidate has to placate to get in office.

What kind of chance would I have being elected Mayor of San Francisco if I wasn't a proponent of the gay agenda.

What kind of chance would I have being elected in Alaska if I was for strict gun control.

We to a degree shape our politicians this way.
__________________
=================================
Warranty voiding
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 10:29   #132
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post

If so I'd really like to discuss which does more harm as I'd like to factor in what religion has done to help scientific progress through endowments for research, opening Universities, Hospitals and research facilities all over the world, the part they played in the Renaissance period, etc. etc.
We can discuss that when you can show me where I have ever claimed that religion is *solely* harmful.

If I remember correctly, I was claiming that we should not pass laws *solely* because science was discovering things that contradicted various religious beliefs. If you think you're going to drag me into arguing for a statement I never made, you can think again.

In fact, I seem to remember you agreeing with me when I said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
I wouldn't argue that it has solely harmed, but I think presenting it as solely helped is likewise invalid.
My position is that we need to *not* get to the point where people's religious beliefs are hindering scientific research simply because what that research is finding contradicts what they believe. Do you disagree?

The Catholic church is, to my understanding, of the position that teaching evolution is OK because nobody can show that God didn't kick it all off. I'm ok with that.

Are you ok with some guy who thinks the earth has to be 6000 years old because some guy counted up generations forcing schools to teach that "alongside" modern geology?
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 05-03-2012 at 10:36..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 10:35   #133
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 13,392


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
Point taken. But then again there are a lot of demographics that a candidate has to placate to get in office.
Nobody has claimed that religion is the only problem in society today, just perhaps one of the greatest.
__________________
CavDoc: "If you have to pretend that a person with a different opinion has an opinion other than his own in order to score points in an argument, you've forfeited any points that you pretended to have."
CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."
Geko45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 11:01   #134
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
We can discuss that when you can show me where I have ever claimed that religion is *solely* harmful.
Never claimed that you said that. Still don't claim it.
(Do you agree with my statement then?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
If I remember correctly, I was claiming that we should not pass laws *solely* because science was discovering things that contradicted various religious beliefs. If you think you're going to drag me into arguing for a statement I never made, you can think again.
I'm asking if you agree to my statement remember?

Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
In fact, I seem to remember you agreeing with me when I said this:



My position is that we need to *not* get to the point where people's religious beliefs are hindering scientific research simply because what that research is finding contradicts what they believe. Do you disagree?

The Catholic church is, to my understanding, of the position that teaching evolution is OK because nobody can show that God didn't kick it all off. I'm ok with that.
I don't quite remember but it sounds right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
Are you ok with some guy who thinks the earth has to be 6000 years old because some guy counted up generations forcing schools to teach that "alongside" modern geology?
Depends how it is presented I suppose.

So, do you then agree that....

Religion, the scientific community, and various other organizations harm scientific progress.

I'm really surprised that you haven't managed to just give a "Yes" to this. Is it in some way difficult for you?
__________________
=================================
Warranty voiding
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 11:06   #135
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
I'm really surprised that you haven't managed to just give a "Yes" to this. Is it in some way difficult for you?

I can't give a "yes" to that as a whole because I think that the total harm done by not performing unethical experiments is completely offset by the actual science done with ethical experiments. I.E. science still moves "net forward", it'd be like running from coast to coast and claiming that achievement is somehow blanked by not going one inch further.

Whereas, when religion (of any denomination - edit - actually, even more strictly, any philosophy whatsoever) says "You can't think about that", it is not "net forward".

But you're going to attempt to use that to say that I'm somehow obstinately claiming that there's no harm done at all, which is ridiculous.
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 05-03-2012 at 11:10..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 11:08   #136
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Nobody has claimed that religion is the only problem in society today, just perhaps one of the greatest.
Greed
War
Totalitarianism
Exploitation of the masses
Genocide
Ethnic cleansing
Nuclear Warfare
Ozone depletion
Overpopulation
Hunger
Disease
Jersey Shore
Dehumanization of society
Top soil eradication
Poverty
Natural Resource depletion
Return of a 2 class society
Communism
Socialism
Nationalism



You would put all of these over Religion?
__________________
=================================
Warranty voiding
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 11:11   #137
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
Jersey Shore
This is a symptom, not a problem.
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 11:14   #138
scccdoc
Senior Member
 
scccdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,390
Do atheist's "foundations" provide grants and scholarships for college students? Christian organizations do.................
scccdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 11:19   #139
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by scccdoc View Post
Do atheist's "foundations" provide grants and scholarships for college students? Christian organizations do.................
I sit on the board of a (very small, basically no-overhead - i.e. all the administrative work is donated, not paid for) non-profit that gives out book scholarships to new college students. I also donate a fair bit of my own money to not only that non-profit, but others. What do you do?
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 05-03-2012 at 11:21..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 11:24   #140
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
I can't give a "yes" to that as a whole because I think that the total harm done by not performing unethical experiments is completely offset by the actual science done with ethical experiments. I.E. science still moves "net forward".

Whereas, when religion (of any denomination) says "You can't think about that", it is not "net forward".

But you're going to attempt to use that to say that I'm somehow obstinately claiming that there's no harm done at all, which is ridiculous.
No, I'm not going to say that. I had no intention of saying it. There is no purpose in it. You find my statement true but can't bring yourself to actually say/write it. Unfortunately you are one of those atheists that I had described earlier. Sorry Void. You're pride forces you to cling too strongly to your preconceived conceptions for us to have meaningful discussion.
__________________
=================================
Warranty voiding
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 11:28   #141
ArtificialGrape
CLM Number 265
Charter Lifetime Member
 
ArtificialGrape's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 5,551
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
Greed
War
Totalitarianism
Exploitation of the masses
Genocide
Ethnic cleansing
Nuclear Warfare
Ozone depletion
Overpopulation
Hunger
Disease
Jersey Shore
Dehumanization of society
Top soil eradication
Poverty
Natural Resource depletion
Return of a 2 class society
Communism
Socialism
Nationalism



You would put all of these over Religion?
Wouldn't all of those be a result of The Fall?
ArtificialGrape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 11:29   #142
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
Wouldn't all of those be a result of The Fall?
Not sure.
__________________
=================================
Warranty voiding
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 11:30   #143
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
No, I'm not going to say that. I had no intention of saying it. There is no purpose in it. You find my statement true but can't bring yourself to actually say/write it.
No, I don't. I agree that prohibition of unethical experiments may result in situations where we may not be able to test for particular knowledge because it is unethical. I agree that this alone can be described as "harm".

I disagree that this, along with the ethical experiments we *can, and do* perform, can be described as "harm to science".

When you grok that, get back to me.
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 05-03-2012 at 11:39..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 13:03   #144
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
No, I don't. I agree that prohibition of unethical experiments may result in situations where we may not be able to test for particular knowledge because it is unethical. I agree that this alone can be described as "harm".

I disagree that this, along with the ethical experiments we *can, and do* perform, can be described as "harm to science".

When you grok that, get back to me.
Didn't say "harm to science"

My statement said "Harm scientific progress"

Let's not go moving goal posts.
__________________
=================================
Warranty voiding
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 13:57   #145
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
Didn't say "harm to science"

My statement said "Harm scientific progress"
*shrug*. I don't see how that distinction is relevant.

Your point is we could get farther along in knowledge if we did certain experiments that we consider unethical. Right?
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 05-03-2012 at 13:57..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 14:07   #146
scccdoc
Senior Member
 
scccdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
I sit on the board of a (very small, basically no-overhead - i.e. all the administrative work is donated, not paid for) non-profit that gives out book scholarships to new college students. I also donate a fair bit of my own money to not only that non-profit, but others. What do you do?
Is it an "atheist" organization? Proclaimed or advertised?But, I'm glad you do!

As far as my involvement, I know that if I list them ,I will be accused of "displaying my righteousness". But yes I donate to and work with organizations which help college students and others. DOC
scccdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 14:13   #147
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
*shrug*. I don't see how that distinction is relevant.
Yes you do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
Your point is we could get farther along in knowledge if we did certain experiments that we consider unethical. Right?
See post #94. this has been covered.
__________________
=================================
Warranty voiding
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 14:14   #148
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by scccdoc View Post
Is it an "atheist" organization? Proclaimed or advertised?But, I'm glad you do!
It's not specifically atheist, but it's not specifically religious, either.

Why does it have to be specifically "atheist"? Why can't people who are atheist donate to organizations whether they state they are "atheist" or not? If I as an atheist happen to donate to a fund that is run by people who are religious, because I think the cause is worth it, should religion get the credit? If there's a group out there that doesn't specifically advertise religion *or* atheism, why doesn't that count when atheists give there?

The line of thought here is that "Oh, religious groups do all this, and you don't see atheist groups!" but IMHO that's basically expected because when people who are atheists give they don't do it in the name of "atheism" (except to counter such charges, which is why you see things like givingaid from dawkins, but that money goes to the red cross, I don't really see much point in not just donating to the red cross directly, because the charges are effectively baseless to begin with).
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 05-03-2012 at 14:21..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 14:18   #149
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
Yes you do.
What is "science" to you, Roering? What is "scientific progress" and how is it different from "science"?

If you say "ahah, you're claiming a distinction, that's not what I said" and I say "well, I don't see the distinction", why do you get to claim that I don't mean what I say?

If I tell you "I meant it to mean basically the same thing", are you going to turn around and tell me "No, you didn't"?

In other words, why are you quibbling when it's pretty clear what I meant? From context, what possible harm are we talking about except for not having knowledge that we could have gained by performing unethical experiments, and how is the fact that we both understand that *that* is what we are talking about any different whether I say "science" or "scientific progress"?
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 05-03-2012 at 14:32..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2012, 14:34   #150
scccdoc
Senior Member
 
scccdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
It's not specifically atheist, but it's not specifically religious, either.

Why does it have to be specifically "atheist"? Why can't people who are atheist donate to organizations whether they state they are "atheist" or not? If I as an atheist happen to donate to a fund that is run by people who are religious, because I think the cause is worth it, should religion get the credit? If there's a group out there that doesn't specifically advertise religion *or* atheism, why doesn't that count when atheists give there?

The line of thought here is that "Oh, religious groups do all this, and you don't see atheist groups!" but IMHO that's basically expected because when people who are atheists give they don't do it in the name of "atheism" (except to counter such charges, which is why you see things like givingaid from dawkins, but that money goes to the red cross, I don't really see much point in not just donating to the red cross directly, because the charges are effectively baseless to begin with).
Well, please reread the title of the thread. My point is that religious organizations do help educate our future and therefore does not "harm" scientific progress.

If an atheist does donate to a religious organization, well, it kinda kicks the idea that we Christians are so terrible...........................
scccdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 21:55.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,294
363 Members
931 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42