GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-02-2012, 15:21   #101
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 14,902


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
Look Void. You have obviously lost this round. You can either admit it with a...

"Yeah, I guess there are lots of organizations that harm scientific progress including it's own community"

Or go with

"Stupid religious zealot, what the hell do you know about science, you still think the planet is only 4,000 years old"

Or slightly change the subject and try to regroup a different point from there.

I'll only respect you for choosing the first though. Unfortunately many atheists take the second, and the prideful go with the third.
Oh, and this is a "False Dilemma" fallacy.
__________________
Peace is our profession, war is just a hobby...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Geko45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 15:24   #102
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
It is actually "less harmful" enough that I consider even making the comparison completely ridiculous.

Kind of like complaining that since accidentally stepping on a nail attaching your carpet to the floor draws blood and someone stabbing you in the face until you die draws blood, they are equally harmful to a person and we should treat carpet nails as mass murderers.

See, Roering, there's a difference between saying "You can't study that because we disagree with what you've found" and "We don't want that experiment performed because it harms people". If you can't recognize that, then hey, that's on you, and I'll still be over here when you figure out that presenting a false dichotomy doesn't mean you win.
Option three then. I had higher hopes for you.
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
Warranty voiding

Never buy vegan tacos from a chick with longer armpit hair than yourself. - Woofie
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 15:24   #103
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 14,902


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
I don't think I've read any of her work. I think my son has that book though. Any good?
Very good. In short, it's about the last few industrial innovators struggling to keep the world working while they drag the dead weight of a failed socialist soceity that continually expects entitlements from them.
__________________
Peace is our profession, war is just a hobby...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Geko45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 15:26   #104
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 14,902


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
Option three then. I had higher hopes for you.
Psst, you really have completely failed to understand his point.
__________________
Peace is our profession, war is just a hobby...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Geko45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 15:28   #105
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Very good. In short, it's about the last few industrial innovators struggling to keep the world working while they drag the dead weight of a failed socialist soceity that continually expects entitlements from them.
Yikes, sounds like the potential fate of the US.
alright, I'm hooked.
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
Warranty voiding

Never buy vegan tacos from a chick with longer armpit hair than yourself. - Woofie
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 15:29   #106
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
Option three then. I had higher hopes for you.


Sorry, but disagreeing with you that there is an equivalence of harm in the two cases is not the same thing as "slightly change the subject and try to regroup a different point from there."

Give me a yell when you can present an argument without resorting to having to use a fallacy.
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 05-02-2012 at 15:29..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 15:30   #107
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 14,902


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
Yikes, sounds like the potential fate of the US.
alright, I'm hooked.
Exactly, read it. You'll enjoy it. It's an old book, so somewhat dated, but I find that interesting because it tells us that these issues were being dealt with even back then.
__________________
Peace is our profession, war is just a hobby...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by Geko45; 05-02-2012 at 15:30..
Geko45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 15:32   #108
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Psst, you really have completely failed to understand his point.
Well, there are other options - it's possible that he actually got my point but doesn't want to admit it, and thus decided to drop to tactical argumentation (such as the use of fallacies) rather than having any kind of actual real discussion. It's possible we've misunderstood him in some way. Etc.

Although, really, he's the only one who can say. All I can say is what it looks like to me.
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 05-02-2012 at 15:33..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 15:35   #109
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post


Sorry, but disagreeing with you that there is an equivalence of harm in the two cases is not the same thing as "slightly change the subject and try to regroup a different point from there."

Give me a yell when you can present an argument without resorting to having to use a fallacy.
I said nothing in regards to an equivalence of harm nor did I make any comparison as to the degree of harm. I said harm.
Specifically I said this:

So it is really "religion, laws,various organizations, and the scientific community that harms scientific progress". Not just religion. (post 89)

That is what you chose to disagree with.
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
Warranty voiding

Never buy vegan tacos from a chick with longer armpit hair than yourself. - Woofie

Last edited by Roering; 05-02-2012 at 15:36..
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 15:41   #110
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
I said nothing in regards to an equivalence of harm nor did I make any comparison as to the degree of harm. I said harm.
And my response was "Do you really think not performing an unethical experiment is the same thing as not exploring a particular area of scientific research because what it is finding contradicts particular religious beliefs?"

I contend it is not the same thing. I contend that in many cases, not performing unethical experimentation does *not* prevent obtaining the knowledge by ethical means, whereas a blanket prohibition *does* prevent obtaining the knowledge.

Your response was to (eventually) present me with a False Dilemma and declare victory. I'm sorry, but I don't consider that an actual discussion, I consider it you using debating tactics and fallacies.
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 15:51   #111
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
And my response was "Do you really think not performing an unethical experiment is the same thing as not exploring a particular area of scientific research because what it is finding contradicts particular religious beliefs?"
Yes and the point I made in post 93 is that they still do harm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
I contend it is not the same thing. I contend that in many cases, not performing unethical experimentation does *not* prevent obtaining the knowledge by ethical means, whereas a blanket prohibition *does* prevent obtaining the knowledge.
And I agree. But my point was that although it may do less harm it still does harm. (I thought my skydiving illustration would get that through to you) You yourself even said "less harmful". I'll give you this though, you succeeded in brilliantly rebutting a point I never made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
Your response was to (eventually) present me with a False Dilemma and declare victory. I'm sorry, but I don't consider that an actual discussion, I consider it you using debating tactics and fallacies.
I couldn't stand to see you suffer. Allowing you to do so any further would have been shall we say, unethical.
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
Warranty voiding

Never buy vegan tacos from a chick with longer armpit hair than yourself. - Woofie

Last edited by Roering; 05-02-2012 at 15:58..
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 16:05   #112
Animal Mother
Not Enough Gun
 
Animal Mother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 15,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul7 View Post
We disagree.
Apparently, but my position has the benefit of being supported by the text of Oppenheimer's article.
Quote:
Very wise dodge on your part, as the Whitehead quote corroborates the Oppenheimer one, both blow your argument.
You mean the Whitehead quote's actual meaning is being misrepresented, as was attempted with the quotation from Dr. Oppenheimer?
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
Animal Mother is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 16:07   #113
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
And I agree. But my point was that although it may do less harm it still does harm.
Yes, and my tearing my foot open with a carpet nail that happens to be point up does me harm, and my being stabbed in the face by a murderer until I bleed to death does me harm, that does not mean that they are equivalent situations just because they are both "harm"

You are completely ignoring that.
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 05-02-2012 at 16:08..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 16:09   #114
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
I couldn't stand to see you suffer. Allowing you to do so any further would have been shall we say, unethical.
You consider this quoted statement an ethical form of argumentation, I take it?

It looks to me like an attempt to push somebody's buttons. If that's where you're coming from, there's no point in talking to you. Other than to keep pointing out where you use fallacies, etc, so that people who may be reading will see it.
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 05-02-2012 at 16:14..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 16:15   #115
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
Yes, and my tearing my foot open with a carpet nail that happens to be point up does me harm, and my being stabbed in the face by a murderer until I bleed to death does me harm, that does not mean that they are equivalent situations just because they are both "harm"

You are completely ignoring that.
Not at all Void. I read it and agree completely with you. This is a wonderful illustration that goes along with your brilliant rebuttal to the argument I never made.
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
Warranty voiding

Never buy vegan tacos from a chick with longer armpit hair than yourself. - Woofie
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 16:20   #116
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
You consider this quoted statement an ethical form of argumentation, I take it?

It looks to me like an attempt to push somebody's buttons. If that's where you're coming from, there's no point in talking to you. Other than to keep pointing out where you use fallacies, etc, so that people who may be reading will see it.
I considered it an ethical way of letting you out. I guess some atheists are morally opposed to euthanasia?
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
Warranty voiding

Never buy vegan tacos from a chick with longer armpit hair than yourself. - Woofie

Last edited by Roering; 05-02-2012 at 16:25..
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 16:23   #117
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
I read it and agree completely with you.
So why aren't you continuing the discussion on the basis of something we both agree on, rather than declaring victory through fallacy?


Edit: Yeah, I see by post #116 that you're not interested in rational discussion, but rather poking and prodding and seeing if you can get someone's ire up. I'm not playing that game, have fun.
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 05-02-2012 at 16:25..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 16:40   #118
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
So why aren't you continuing the discussion on the basis of something we both agree on, rather than declaring victory through fallacy?
You have yet to concede that the scientific community, various organizations, etc. also harms scientific progress.
(aka: option 1).
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
Warranty voiding

Never buy vegan tacos from a chick with longer armpit hair than yourself. - Woofie
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 17:22   #119
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 14,902


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
You have yet to concede that the scientific community, various organizations, etc. also harms scientific progress.
(aka: option 1).
Roering, you aren't putting in your best work today. Ok, yeah, religion isn't the only thing that can impede scientific progress. Even some dysfunctional organizations that claim to support scientific research can, in fact, be impediments to it (usually due to politics that often trace back to religion as well), but what's your point? It seems like you are stuck on scoring a point on Void more than advancing the conversation.
__________________
Peace is our profession, war is just a hobby...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Geko45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 17:39   #120
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Roering, you aren't putting in your best work today. Ok, yeah, religion isn't the only thing that can impede scientific progress. Even some dysfunctional organizations that claim to support scientific research can, in fact, be impediments to it (usually due to politics that often trace back to religion as well), but what's your point? It seems like you are stuck on scoring a point on Void more than advancing the conversation.
Many Atheists and Christians (Fundies mostly) believe that religion and science are at opposition to each other. In some cases as extreme as to believe that one must die in order for the other to live (think Harry Potter & Voldemort).

The title of this thread smells to have the same flavor. I have agreed that religion has played a part in doing so and I'm seeing if Void can agree that the scientific community also "harms scientific progress". So far he has not been able to concede that point. If he could THEN there may be some common ground but from my dialogue with him thus far he seems to be one of those atheists I described above.

If this is the case, where can the conversation possibly go?
I'm not looking to score "points". I'm looking for realistic thought from an atheist without such polarizing views.

Honestly, I could no further have a meaningful discussion about this with Norske than you could with a Christian Scientist.
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
Warranty voiding

Never buy vegan tacos from a chick with longer armpit hair than yourself. - Woofie
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:34.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 521
142 Members
379 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31