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Old 05-03-2012, 14:41   #151
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Originally Posted by void * View Post
What is "science" to you, Roering? What is "scientific progress" and how is it different from "science"?
To me? Let's just review a definition of the two words shall we.

Science:
"Systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation."

Progress:
"A movement toward a goal or to a further or higher stage"

Now that you know what these two words mean you should be able to figure out that scientific progress would be the increase of this systematic knowledge.
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Old 05-03-2012, 14:45   #152
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Well, please reread the title of the thread. My point is that religious organizations do help educate our future and therefore does not "harm" scientific progress.
Well, I think the blanket statement "religion harms scientific progress" isn't really justified.

I mean, you could make up a religion whose sole purpose was to get people to apply the scientific method.

What is justified, imho, is more along the lines of "There are tendencies in religious thought that in various situations can be detrimental to determining what the truth actually is, compared to using the scientific method in the same situation"

So, for instance, a Catholic organization donating money for research - I don't think anyone is going to call that detrimental.

Someone not liking the fact that they have a particular interpretation of the Bible and the findings of science aren't in line with that interpretation, and then acting on it? That's bad for us *as a whole* (even though it might be good for that particular person, or that person's religion).

Or, say, someone is looking at a problem and figures out a bunch of it, and then hits a harder bit, and rather than thinking about it goes to a "god of the gaps" argument. They don't learn more about it. (I think I saw somewhere that Newton did this, I think - instead of showing how the solar system could be stable, he just went "well, God's will must do it". However, it's possible I'm misremberering, or wherever I'm remembering it from didn't source it correctly or whatever)

I think when people say "Religion harms scientific progress", that's what they mean - not necessarily "Religion (or religious people) has/have never, ever helped human knowledge along in any situation whatsoever"
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Old 05-03-2012, 14:45   #153
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Do atheist's "foundations" provide grants and scholarships for college students? Christian organizations do.................
FFRF (Freedom From Religion Foundation) is one example that quickly turned up as offering scholarships. I'm sure that there are others, but I don't seek out "atheist" charities.

JDRF, Denver Children's Hospital, Fisher House, Wounded Warrior, and the American Red Cross are a few charities that I support.

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Old 05-03-2012, 14:48   #154
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Now that you know what these two words mean you should be able to figure out that scientific progress would be the increase of this systematic knowledge.
Ahh, Roering. Selective quoting again. Let me repeat myself:

Quote:
In other words, why are you quibbling when it's pretty clear what I meant? From context, what possible harm are we talking about except for not having knowledge that we could have gained by performing unethical experiments, and how is the fact that we both understand that *that* is what we are talking about any different whether I say "science" or "scientific progress"?
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Old 05-03-2012, 15:01   #155
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Well, please reread the title of the thread. My point is that religious organizations do help educate our future and therefore does not "harm" scientific progress.
It is possible to "educate" our youth while harming the advancement of science at the same time. E.g. I could imagine a scholarship to Moody Bible Institute "educating" our youth on rejecting science.

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Old 05-03-2012, 15:04   #156
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Ahh, Roering. Selective quoting again. Let me repeat myself:
It makes a difference because you attempt to change the wording of my statement in an attempt to change it's meaning during your back-pedal.

If you are going to quote someone use their actual words. But I'll give you another chance. Now that you understand the difference between "science" and "scientific progress" would you care to agree to this statement?

Religion, the scientific community, and various other organizations harm scientific progress.
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Old 05-03-2012, 15:05   #157
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It is possible to "educate" our youth while harming the advancement of science at the same time. E.g. I could imagine a scholarship to Moody Bible Institute "educating" our youth on rejecting science.

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I would say so.
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Old 05-03-2012, 15:07   #158
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Well, I think the blanket statement "religion harms scientific progress" isn't really justified.

I mean, you could make up a religion whose sole purpose was to get people to apply the scientific method.

What is justified, imho, is more along the lines of "There are tendencies in religious thought that in various situations can be detrimental to determining what the truth actually is, compared to using the scientific method in the same situation"

So, for instance, a Catholic organization donating money for research - I don't think anyone is going to call that detrimental.

Someone not liking the fact that they have a particular interpretation of the Bible and the findings of science aren't in line with that interpretation, and then acting on it? That's bad for us *as a whole* (even though it might be good for that particular person, or that person's religion).

Or, say, someone is looking at a problem and figures out a bunch of it, and then hits a harder bit, and rather than thinking about it goes to a "god of the gaps" argument. They don't learn more about it. (I think I saw somewhere that Newton did this, I think - instead of showing how the solar system could be stable, he just went "well, God's will must do it". However, it's possible I'm misremberering, or wherever I'm remembering it from didn't source it correctly or whatever)

I think when people say "Religion harms scientific progress", that's what they mean - not necessarily "Religion (or religious people) has/have never, ever helped human knowledge along in any situation whatsoever"
I agree
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Old 05-03-2012, 15:09   #159
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It makes a difference because you attempt to change the wording of my statement in an attempt to change it's meaning during your back-pedal.
Bull. I used it meaning effectively the same thing, and now you're pedantically claiming that I'm somehow attempting to change the meaning.

I'm done arguing with you, Roering - anyone who honestly wants to know what I think about this can read my response to scccdoc in post #152.
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Old 05-03-2012, 16:03   #160
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Bull. I used it meaning effectively the same thing, and now you're pedantically claiming that I'm somehow attempting to change the meaning.

I'm done arguing with you, Roering - anyone who honestly wants to know what I think about this can read my response to scccdoc in post #152.
What was that you said about selective quoting?
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Old 05-03-2012, 16:07   #161
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What was that you said about selective quoting?
Have you yet realized that I wasn't actually quoting you when I said "harm to science", and thus your charge that I've somehow misquoted you and/or somehow changed your statement is utter jank?

Hint: when I quote people, it's usually with QUOTE tags.

And yes, when I said "harm to science", i meant it in the context of our discussion - in other words, I did not mean it in a way that is substantially different to "harm to scientific progress".

And yes, when I stated that, you turned around and effectively told me that I didn't. Did I call it, or did I call it?

Have you read post #152?
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Old 05-03-2012, 16:39   #162
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Have you read post #152?
Yes I read the back pedal.
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Old 05-03-2012, 16:41   #163
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Yes I read the back pedal


Why is it that the more and more I talk to you, the less and less I think it's possible to have any sort of reasonable discussion with you?
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Old 05-03-2012, 17:04   #164
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Why is it that the more and more I talk to you, the less and less I think it's possible to have any sort of reasonable discussion with you?
I partly explained it in post #140. The false assumption you made in regards to my posts in the thread about the T-shirt reaffirms it. Preconceived notions (stereotyping) based upon some sort of underlying prejudice hamper an open mind which makes it really difficult if not downright impossible to see another persons point of view because instead of listening/reading your too busy judging and assuming what it is that is being said/written. If one cannot do that, then the dialogue is really more like a monologue. I'm not thinking what you think I'm thinking. I'm not saying what you think I'm saying, and I'm demonstratively not typing what you think I'm typing (T-shirt thread). Because of that you get frustrated.

I'm sure you have great discussions with like minded people, or non like minded people who happen to fit your stereotype but just not me.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just telling you how it is.
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Old 05-03-2012, 17:31   #165
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I'm sure you have great discussions with like minded people, or non like minded people who happen to fit your stereotype but just not me.
I have great discussions with *differing* minded people when I don't get the impression that they'd rather make ad-homs than actually discuss things.

I have great discussions with *differing* minded people when they come from a position of understanding that, yeah, maybe somebody uses a word here and there, that's not the *exact* thing stated, but if they come back and clear up what they meant, it's fine. (as opposed to demanding that there's some sort of attempt to "change what they mean" or the like).

I have great discussions with *differing* minded people when they don't decide that they're going to declare victory rather than continue the conversation.

I'm sad that you're not one of those people, Roering, because given the intelligence you've put into making tactical debate plays, having such a discussion with you *might* actually be interesting. If you'd let it be.
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Old 05-03-2012, 17:43   #166
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Do atheist's "foundations" provide grants and scholarships for college students?
Yes. There are a quite a few explicitly atheist organizations which offer scholarships and many more that offer scholarships focused on the sciences.
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Old 05-03-2012, 17:47   #167
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Well, please reread the title of the thread. My point is that religious organizations do help educate our future and therefore does not "harm" scientific progress.
How much does ICR or AiG spend on unrestricted college scholarships in comparison to their spending on efforts to dismantle the sciences?
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Old 05-03-2012, 18:12   #168
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Did anyone notice that the title, of this conversation, is backwards?
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Old 05-03-2012, 18:25   #169
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Did anyone notice that the title, of this conversation, is backwards?
What's sad is that some people actually think that is true.
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Old 05-03-2012, 20:15   #170
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I mean, you could make up a religion whose sole purpose was to get people to apply the scientific method.
Wouldn't that just be science? However, you may be on to something. If we made up an imaginary deity, perhaps the Great Magnet or the Quantum Spirit or something, it would be a great way to get the theists to finally understand (acknowledge really) the arguments we make against them when they turn them around on us.
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Old 05-03-2012, 20:42   #171
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So do these papers then prohibit or admonish said experiments due to being unethical? Is there an advisory board of some form within the scientific community that prohibits certain experiments from happening? Or a Hypothesis from being tested?
Actually they do and yes there are. The Belmont Report, Nuremberg Code and the Declaration of Helsinki are the primary examples in regards to "papers" on human research. Every location that does such research is required to have a Institutional Review Board comprised of medical experts, usually MDs and PHDs and to include laymen board members from the community. In addition Federally funded research is required to have Community Advisory Boards comprised completely of laymen. In the US the only thing more stringently regulated than research involving humans is research involving animals as they can not give informed consent.

All such locations are subject to a variety of Federal auditors in addition to sponsor audits.

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...I'm seeing if Void can agree that the scientific community also "harms scientific progress". So far he has not been able to concede that point...
He should not have to and I am quite surprised someone else hasn't beat me to the punch. All of the ethical and moral restraints you insist on viewing as harming scientific progress have done no such thing. Those guidelines, procedures and laws have bettered science as to eliminate research that would prove harmful to science and the research subjects as well. Tying a woman's legs together while she gives birth isn't scientific, it's insane and sadistic.

Such experiments have no scientific merit what so ever. They were born from sick twisted minds that used and abused their scientific credentials and knowledge to justify the torture and maltreatment of other human beings for their own perverted pleasures.

Should such atrocities be allowed that would be a harm to science as folks would find it reprehensible and call for science to be done away with.

You know kind of like all the atrocities religion has inspired over the course of history have some wanting to limit and/or do away with religion. Fortunately science and some religions have taken to institute barriers, regulations and laws that prevent/punish such behaviors within their fields and the extinction of either is not necessary.

Your focus on the progress of science has harped on human research. I worked in that field for a decade. Human research isn't really one of the main fields where religion has harmed science. Far more often is has been things such as cosmology, classical physics/mechanics where God has been invoked to the detriment of scientific progress. As I said before, in science, "God did it" is and will forever be a waste of time and brain power.

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Old 05-03-2012, 23:20   #172
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Wouldn't that just be science? However, you may be on to something. If we made up an imaginary deity, perhaps the Great Magnet or the Quantum Spirit or something, it would be a great way to get the theists to finally understand (acknowledge really) the arguments we make against them when they turn them around on us.
I mean sort of in the way that the Seldon Plan was set up as a religion in one of the early phases of that plan in the Foundation novels, but with knowledge being the thing that is held holy.

Maybe someone goes all El Ron Hubbard on us but the religion that person sets up requires, say, writing the equivalent of a Ph.D. thesis, rather than a whole bunch of cash, to advance into the "mysteries". Or something along those lines.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:30   #173
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I mean sort of in the way that the Seldon Plan was set up as a religion in one of the early phases of that plan in the Foundation novels, but with knowledge being the thing that is held holy.

Maybe someone goes all El Ron Hubbard on us but the religion that person sets up requires, say, writing the equivalent of a Ph.D. thesis, rather than a whole bunch of cash, to advance into the "mysteries". Or something along those lines.
We could have St. Einstein, St. Darwin, St. Newton, St. Faraday, etc. Or maybe Dawkins and Tyson on TV in $3000 suits and gold watches bilking the elderly out of money for research.
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:07   #174
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Roering still hasn't tied this line of thought back to the topic of the thread. What's the point? That other factors impede research too? So what? How does that absolve religion from its negative impacts on science? It doesn't. This whole tangent has been nothing but a red herring.
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Old 05-04-2012, 11:42   #175
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St. Faraday

For some reason I want him to be the patron saint of prisons.
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