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Old 05-02-2012, 17:47   #121
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I'm seeing if Void can agree that the scientific community also "harms scientific progress". So far he has not been able to concede that point.
How *precisely* is stating "less harm" the same thing as not admitting that there's harm, Roering?

My response to you was effectively that the difference in scale between the two harms means that they are not comparable as the same situation. Are you really treating my stating of a scale difference as somehow not admitting there can be "harm"?

I mean, I see the sentence above as a *gross* misrepresentation of how the thread played out.
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Old 05-02-2012, 17:55   #122
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How *precisely* is stating "less harm" the same thing as not admitting that there's harm, Roering?

My response to you was effectively that the difference in scale between the two harms means that they are not the same situation. Are you really treating my stating of a scale difference as somehow not admitting there can be "harm"?
I'll show you with your own words.

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It is actually "less harmful" enough that I consider even making the comparison completely ridiculous.
That's a far cry from admitting that the scientific community, et al also does harm to scientific progress. As you said, it's "completely ridiculous"
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Old 05-02-2012, 17:59   #123
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We can decide that not harming people is worth making gaining some particular piece of knowledge harder and/or impossible (but in most cases, just harder) *and* decide that not gaining a particular piece of knowledge is *not worth* not offending a particular group that believes something contrary to that piece of knowledge without contradicting ourselves.
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Old 05-02-2012, 18:00   #124
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I'll show you with your own words
You're selectively quoting. Would you argue that my stepping on a carpet nail is not harm to myself?

If not, why are you ignoring the example I gave that compared stepping on a carpet nail to being stabbed to death?


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It is actually "less harmful" enough that I consider even making the comparison completely ridiculous.

Kind of like complaining that since accidentally stepping on a nail attaching your carpet to the floor draws blood and someone stabbing you in the face until you die draws blood, they are equally harmful to a person and we should treat carpet nails as mass murderers.
Oh, right ... because it doesn't fit the argument you want to make. You want to pretend that I am obstinately claiming that there's no harm, rather than address the point I actually did make, which is to say that the scale of the harms is different enough that there's no point in comparing them.
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Old 05-02-2012, 18:16   #125
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Let's take a look at the new thread One in Seven thinks End of World is Coming. Does anyone here believe that these one in seven that think the world will end in their lifetime are voting for funding for long term scientific research?
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Old 05-03-2012, 06:44   #126
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Let's take a look at the new thread One in Seven thinks End of World is Coming. Does anyone here believe that these one in seven that think the world will end in their lifetime are voting for funding for long term scientific research?
No, but they're probably giving more to charitable causes than you atheists, according to research.
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Old 05-03-2012, 06:53   #127
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No, but they're probably giving more to charitable causes than you atheists, according to research.
Well then, you should start a thread entitled "How atheism harms charitable causes" because you might actually have a valid point on that one.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:00   #128
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You're selectively quoting. Would you argue that my stepping on a carpet nail is not harm to myself?

If not, why are you ignoring the example I gave that compared stepping on a carpet nail to being stabbed to death?




Oh, right ... because it doesn't fit the argument you want to make. You want to pretend that I am obstinately claiming that there's no harm, rather than address the point I actually did make, which is to say that the scale of the harms is different enough that there's no point in comparing them.
You agree with my statement then that the scientific community, religion, and other various organizations harm scientific progress?

You agree with that?

If so I'd really like to discuss which does more harm as I'd like to factor in what religion has done to help scientific progress through endowments for research, opening Universities, Hospitals and research facilities all over the world, the part they played in the Renaissance period, etc. etc.

I may make the argument that science is further along now than it would be without religion.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:14   #129
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Let's take a look at the new thread One in Seven thinks End of World is Coming. Does anyone here believe that these one in seven that think the world will end in their lifetime are voting for funding for long term scientific research?
Well probably not, but unless the rules of math have significantly changed 1 in 7 still isn't a majority so......
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:21   #130
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Well probably not, but unless the rules of math have significantly changed 1 in 7 still isn't a majority so......
And the 1 in 7 aren't all encompassing of the group of people that vote their religous beliefs, so...

Even if they aren't a majority, they still represent a signifcant voting block that any candidate is going to either have to placate (or completely abandon) in order to stay in office.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:29   #131
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And the 1 in 7 aren't all encompassing of the group of people that vote their religous beliefs, so...

Even if they aren't a majority, they still represent a signifcant voting block that any candidate is going to either have to placate (or completely abandon) in order to stay in office.
Point taken. But then again there are a lot of demographics that a candidate has to placate to get in office.

What kind of chance would I have being elected Mayor of San Francisco if I wasn't a proponent of the gay agenda.

What kind of chance would I have being elected in Alaska if I was for strict gun control.

We to a degree shape our politicians this way.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:29   #132
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If so I'd really like to discuss which does more harm as I'd like to factor in what religion has done to help scientific progress through endowments for research, opening Universities, Hospitals and research facilities all over the world, the part they played in the Renaissance period, etc. etc.
We can discuss that when you can show me where I have ever claimed that religion is *solely* harmful.

If I remember correctly, I was claiming that we should not pass laws *solely* because science was discovering things that contradicted various religious beliefs. If you think you're going to drag me into arguing for a statement I never made, you can think again.

In fact, I seem to remember you agreeing with me when I said this:

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I wouldn't argue that it has solely harmed, but I think presenting it as solely helped is likewise invalid.
My position is that we need to *not* get to the point where people's religious beliefs are hindering scientific research simply because what that research is finding contradicts what they believe. Do you disagree?

The Catholic church is, to my understanding, of the position that teaching evolution is OK because nobody can show that God didn't kick it all off. I'm ok with that.

Are you ok with some guy who thinks the earth has to be 6000 years old because some guy counted up generations forcing schools to teach that "alongside" modern geology?
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:35   #133
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Point taken. But then again there are a lot of demographics that a candidate has to placate to get in office.
Nobody has claimed that religion is the only problem in society today, just perhaps one of the greatest.
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:01   #134
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We can discuss that when you can show me where I have ever claimed that religion is *solely* harmful.
Never claimed that you said that. Still don't claim it.
(Do you agree with my statement then?)

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If I remember correctly, I was claiming that we should not pass laws *solely* because science was discovering things that contradicted various religious beliefs. If you think you're going to drag me into arguing for a statement I never made, you can think again.
I'm asking if you agree to my statement remember?

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In fact, I seem to remember you agreeing with me when I said this:



My position is that we need to *not* get to the point where people's religious beliefs are hindering scientific research simply because what that research is finding contradicts what they believe. Do you disagree?

The Catholic church is, to my understanding, of the position that teaching evolution is OK because nobody can show that God didn't kick it all off. I'm ok with that.
I don't quite remember but it sounds right.

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Are you ok with some guy who thinks the earth has to be 6000 years old because some guy counted up generations forcing schools to teach that "alongside" modern geology?
Depends how it is presented I suppose.

So, do you then agree that....

Religion, the scientific community, and various other organizations harm scientific progress.

I'm really surprised that you haven't managed to just give a "Yes" to this. Is it in some way difficult for you?
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:06   #135
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I'm really surprised that you haven't managed to just give a "Yes" to this. Is it in some way difficult for you?

I can't give a "yes" to that as a whole because I think that the total harm done by not performing unethical experiments is completely offset by the actual science done with ethical experiments. I.E. science still moves "net forward", it'd be like running from coast to coast and claiming that achievement is somehow blanked by not going one inch further.

Whereas, when religion (of any denomination - edit - actually, even more strictly, any philosophy whatsoever) says "You can't think about that", it is not "net forward".

But you're going to attempt to use that to say that I'm somehow obstinately claiming that there's no harm done at all, which is ridiculous.
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:08   #136
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Nobody has claimed that religion is the only problem in society today, just perhaps one of the greatest.
Greed
War
Totalitarianism
Exploitation of the masses
Genocide
Ethnic cleansing
Nuclear Warfare
Ozone depletion
Overpopulation
Hunger
Disease
Jersey Shore
Dehumanization of society
Top soil eradication
Poverty
Natural Resource depletion
Return of a 2 class society
Communism
Socialism
Nationalism



You would put all of these over Religion?
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:11   #137
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Jersey Shore
This is a symptom, not a problem.
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:14   #138
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Do atheist's "foundations" provide grants and scholarships for college students? Christian organizations do.................
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:19   #139
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Do atheist's "foundations" provide grants and scholarships for college students? Christian organizations do.................
I sit on the board of a (very small, basically no-overhead - i.e. all the administrative work is donated, not paid for) non-profit that gives out book scholarships to new college students. I also donate a fair bit of my own money to not only that non-profit, but others. What do you do?
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:24   #140
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I can't give a "yes" to that as a whole because I think that the total harm done by not performing unethical experiments is completely offset by the actual science done with ethical experiments. I.E. science still moves "net forward".

Whereas, when religion (of any denomination) says "You can't think about that", it is not "net forward".

But you're going to attempt to use that to say that I'm somehow obstinately claiming that there's no harm done at all, which is ridiculous.
No, I'm not going to say that. I had no intention of saying it. There is no purpose in it. You find my statement true but can't bring yourself to actually say/write it. Unfortunately you are one of those atheists that I had described earlier. Sorry Void. You're pride forces you to cling too strongly to your preconceived conceptions for us to have meaningful discussion.
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