[racer88]

Originally Posted by Handy with the Steel

in my experience, toting a loud, cocky and agressive attitude has no bearing on coming out victorious in a fight.

I don't believe a "command presence" or "command voice" has ANYTHING to do with being loud, cocky, or aggressive.

Command is CREDIBLE... and rooted in confidence. They can SMELL it. It's instinctive.

Cocky, loud, and aggressive are not necessarily credible... and often correctly perceived as "all show and no go." Cocky, loud, and aggressive is usually an act.

There's a difference. A big difference. In fact, a command presence can even be silent. Not a word spoken.


As for the OP... good stuff, and I agree. However, I dare say that a majority of us do not subscribe to the non-carrying public's conventional wisdom that carrying a gun is intended to scare or frighten bad guys.

I don't expect the presence of a shovel to scare dirt out of the ground to create a hole. If I have a shovel, and I need to make a hole in the ground, I simply use it. I don't warn the earth that I have a shovel. I don't shout out, "I've got a shovel, and I'll use it!" and hope that a hole will suddenly open up.

I don't carry a gun with the intention of using it as visual leverage in a life-threatening situation. I carry it with the intent of winning a contest to survive a lethal encounter. There are no guarantees, of course.

But, to be very clear... I have no plans to scare any BGs. I understand that bad guys' commitment to their goal supersedes the instincts to avoid personal harm they've managed to condition away in the vestigial remnants of their humanity.

I hereby declare my primal commitment to continue to be around for my natural life and for my family is even greater than their nefarious plans for victims. I will not be one of them, and I will immediately act accordingly if faced with such a situation. I made that declaration to myself a long time ago.

[janice6]

Originally Posted by racer88

I don't believe a "command presence" or "command voice" has ANYTHING to do with being loud, cocky, or aggressive.

Command is CREDIBLE... and rooted in confidence. They can SMELL it. It's instinctive.

Cocky, loud, and aggressive are not necessarily credible... and often correctly perceived as "all show and no go." Cocky, loud, and aggressive is usually an act.

There's a difference. A big difference. In fact, a command presence can even be silent. Not a word spoken.


As for the OP... good stuff, and I agree. However, I dare say that a majority of us do not subscribe to the non-carrying public's conventional wisdom that carrying a gun is intended to scare or frighten bad guys.

I don't expect the presence of a shovel to scare dirt out of the ground to create a hole. If I have a shovel, and I need to make a hole in the ground, I simply use it. I don't warn the earth that I have a shovel. I don't shout out, "I've got a shovel, and I'll use it!" and hope that a hole will suddenly open up.

I don't carry a gun with the intention of using it as visual leverage in a life-threatening situation. I carry it with the intent of winning a contest to survive a lethal encounter. There are no guarantees, of course.

But, to be very clear... I have no plans to scare any BGs. I understand that bad guys' commitment to their goal supersedes the instincts to avoid personal harm they've managed to condition away in the vestigial remnants of their humanity.

I hereby declare my primal commitment to continue to be around for my natural life and for my family is even greater than their nefarious plans for victims. I will not be one of them, and I will immediately act accordingly if faced with such a situation. I made that declaration to myself a long time ago.

I will not go "willingly".

[racer88]

Originally Posted by janice6

I will not go "willingly".

Oh sure... reduce my long post to a concise essence!

[valian]

I have had 2 very close calls that verify the OP's assertions.

Both times my ability to ready myself to fight and willing to do so persuaded those about to do me harm to stop.

The presence of my gun gave me the ability to have the means and the obvious confidence to avoid robbery in one case and who knows exactly what in the second case... perhaps a beating/robbery/ murder by a small neighborhood gang.

Being aware of what was happening was crucial, and my response of putting my hand on my gun, obvious intent focus and facing them in both cases with resolve to fight back ferociously, i believe, in both cases made them stop just before their intended attacks. Both times the attacks fizzled just before being launched. In one of the situations it was so close that my mind was already anticipating what the recoil of multiple shots was going to feel like in my hand.

I do think though, that it would have been difficult to pull off the show of genuine resolve to inflict damage had i not actually had a gun and some good training in using it to fight.

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by racer88

Oh sure... reduce my long post to a concise essence!

Don’t you just hate it when people can summarize a though that takes you several paragraphs to write out into a single tiny sentence? It’s a skill I never acquired and am quite envious of it too!

.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by Misty02

Don’t you just hate it when people can summarize a though that takes you several paragraphs to write out into a single tiny sentence?

Happens to me all the time.

Tagging this thread.

[CitizenOfDreams]

Originally Posted by cowboywannabe

the best way to fight off a wolf is to not become a sheep dog, but to become a wolf yourself.

Problem is, when you become a wolf, other wolves will expect you to follow the laws of the wolf pack.

I would rather become something a wolf would not even try to challenge (Mowgli with the Red Flower).

[NecoDude]

At Academy we were all told a story that really hit home to me and I try to practice Command Presence as a rule.

I don't know if the story was true or not but it was about a car thief that killed a State Patrol officer. When interviewed and was asked why, the now murdering bastage said "As soon as he got out of the car he knew he could take him because his trousers were hiked up his leg, parts of his shirt were untucked and he didn't act with authority"

True or not, the message was loud and clear. I don't act like an arse but hopefully you don't perceive me as easy either.

Saw this somewhere else today "Don't EVER mistake my silence for ignorance, my calmness for acceptance, or my kindness for weakness"

[series1811]

Originally Posted by NecoDude

At Academy we were all told a story that really hit home to me and I try to practice Command Presence as a rule.

I don't know if the story was true or not but it was about a car thief that killed a State Patrol officer. When interviewed and was asked why, the now murdering bastage said "As soon as he got out of the car he knew he could take him because his trousers were hiked up his leg, parts of his shirt were untucked and he didn't act with authority"

True or not, the message was loud and clear. I don't act like an arse but hopefully you don't perceive me as easy either.

Saw this somewhere else today "Don't EVER mistake my silence for ignorance, my calmness for acceptance, or my kindness for weakness"

This study ought to be required reading for every police officer, and anybody else interested in self defense against dangerous criminals.

http://tomdiaz.wordpress.com/2009/04...nced-shooters/

[steveksux]

Originally Posted by Misty02

Don’t you just hate it when people can summarize a though that takes you several paragraphs to write out into a single tiny sentence?

Yup

It’s a skill I never acquired and am quite envious of it too!

Agreed.

Randy

[steveksux]

Originally Posted by valian

I have had 2 very close calls that verify the OP's assertions.

Both times my ability to ready myself to fight and willing to do so persuaded those about to do me harm to stop.

The presence of my gun gave me the ability to have the means and the obvious confidence to avoid robbery in one case and who knows exactly what in the second case... perhaps a beating/robbery/ murder by a small neighborhood gang.

Being aware of what was happening was crucial, and my response of putting my hand on my gun, obvious intent focus and facing them in both cases with resolve to fight back ferociously, i believe, in both cases made them stop just before their intended attacks. Both times the attacks fizzled just before being launched. In one of the situations it was so close that my mind was already anticipating what the recoil of multiple shots was going to feel like in my hand.

I do think though, that it would have been difficult to pull off the show of genuine resolve to inflict damage had i not actually had a gun and some good training in using it to fight.

I'll throw my 2c in for what it's worth...

1) The gun is only one weapon at your disposal. 2) Think poker. Nothing wrong with a bluff making them think twice. Its all in the attitude. The gun lets you know you can make them pay, and knowing that allows you to present yourself such that they can sense that you're not an easy target.

Now that you know what that feels like, you can fake it if you happen to not be armed.

They never saw your gun. They saw your resolve.

My thought is there are lots of vulnerable places I'm going to tear up if I'm unarmed and attacked. Not going to bother hitting the hard bony skull when there's a nice soft throat available. Not going to bother hitting the same place twice in a row now that they're starting to react and get their hands in the way. Think the 3 "N's". Nuts Knees and Nose. Add eyes, solar plexus, throat as seasoning.

Randy

[racer88]

Originally Posted by steveksux

I'll throw my 2c in for what it's worth...

1) The gun is only one weapon at your disposal. 2) Think poker. Nothing wrong with a bluff making them think twice. Its all in the attitude. The gun lets you know you can make them pay, and knowing that allows you to present yourself such that they can sense that you're not an easy target.

Now that you know what that feels like, you can fake it if you happen to not be armed.

They never saw your gun. They saw your resolve.

Yep. Been there. Done that. Didn't have my gun (no longer an issue). But, the way I presented myself to the person "interviewing" me let him know I was not the weak zebra in the herd. He turned and left.

[Ol'Codger]

Due to flawed lifestyle choices by a close family member, I have had a serious education of the type that wprebeck is referring to. Thank you, Sir, for introducing this topic, and also a big thank you to you and the others of the LEO community for dedicating your lives to the apprehension and containment of bad guys so that the rest of us have a better chance to walk the streets in peace!

I believe that most folks are at least semi-ignorant of the criminal mindset and of a lot of the criminal activity in their own communities - most of the time it is "out of sight, out of mind". The knowledge I have gained is consistent with what the OP writes - the bad guys are not afraid of anything or anybody. The prospect of going to jail (or of being deported again for the 5th time...) only means they are going to get to see some of their friends they haven't seen for a while, get free food, and have shelter from the elements. My family member has told me of individuals who will commit what seems like a stupid crime and get caught just so they have a place to stay for the winter! In the course of trying to help my family member, there have been instances where I have had to deal with the presence of individuals that clearly wished ill upon me. One time was leaving a court hearing (no weapons allowed, of course) and walking back to my car. I came upon a group of my family member's "friends" who were acting very hostile and were blocking the sidewalk. It was too late to change course without being obvious, and the only weapon on my person was my car keys. So I pulled them from my pocket and picked the first person of the group who was going to get poked if they started something (the big one in the middle...). I guess they could tell I was not going to back down, and as I approached, they begrudgingly parted and I walked through. I am sure they were not scared of me at all, but I think they saw the "something" in my eyes that let them know they didn't want any part of me at that time.

To connect this back to concealed carry, I guess for me it is condensed down to the reality that if someone chooses to try to harm me, I am going to take any measure available to me to make sure that doesn't happen. To this end I am vigilant and aware of my surroundings and am continually plotting where I am going and doing my best to avoid unfriendly circumstances. I am also aware of the individuals around me and what their possible motivations and actions might be, and I do my best to avoid situations that don't look promising. But in the end, my space is my space, and if someone wants to confront me in my space, then I will not hesitate to defend myself, I will do my best to stop them before they stop me.

[MKEgal]

Here's a paper by Kleck & Gertz about victimology:
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndGertz1.htm

And links to PDFs of the FBI report about criminals who assaulted LEO:
http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2...ncounters.html

There was a really excellent essay by an "Officer Smith" that I know I saved a link to, but can't find at the moment, talking about things very similar to this thread - criminals don't think like normal people, & if you think they do you're going to get hurt.

[FireForged]

One thing that I hear over and over again when people discuss their carefully laid SD plans is.."well if I were faced with this situation and I were the BG". I always say STOP! If you are trying to predict how a "real" badguy is going to react, you should consider that the badguy in all likelyhood, may not share your morals, values, motivations, emotional filters, mental processes or ability to reasonably weigh risk and ultimately...consequences.

In theory and when considering the nature of a BG or the people who hold themselves out to be a realistic threat to my life-safety, I do not consider them to be simply average people who have lost their way... I consider that they may in fact be dangerous/unpredictable habitual predators.

[SpectreRider]

Tagged to read tonight

Read it. Lots of solid info, some great links as well.

Thanks All.