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Old 05-01-2012, 11:48   #51
Hyksos
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I'm sure certain judges can attempt it, but it'd be a tough sell, given the more general language used throughout the opinion.

However, I'd never put anything past any lawyer, judge, or court, so I wouldn't actually bet money on it...
Seriously, stuff like that happens all the time. Dissenters either 1) frequently accuse the majority of failing to follow precedent; or 2) state why they think the case should be distinguished.

After all, where else do dissents come from? Judges disagree on how to interpret prior case law. Some may believe certain facts are spot on, while others may believe the proposed case law does not comport with the current facts. The result is a majority of the Court may feel that a somewhat similar case is good precedent, while the dissent feels that the case doesn't even apply to the set of facts in front of them.
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:23   #52
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No one has posted a citation to anything in M v. H that defined NBC. Razorsharp uses M v. H as the basis for his argument.
You are correct, I was looking at United States v. Wong Kim Ark. While Minor v. Happersett discusses who are citizens and says that "[s]ome authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents[,]" that is not the subject of the case - what they decided is whether being a citizen automatically includes the right to vote and they held that it does not, so we needed a constitutional amendment to guarantee that right. The case does discuss the history of citizenship, but doesn't directly answer the question of "natural born citizenship."
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Old 05-01-2012, 16:03   #53
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The Framers of the Constitution saw a difference. That's why they made an exception for citizens, who were alive at the time of ratification, to be eligible for President. After that, one had to be a natural born citizen. So, there is a difference between a citizen and a natural born citizen.
We have two forms of citizens in this country: natural born, who are citizens at the time of birth (gained by being born within the country or being born to American citizens abroad) and naturalized, those who attained citizenship after being born . There is no third citizenship status for those born in the country to foreign citizens.

The concept and definition of natural born citizenship is based in English common law and has been the same since colonial times.
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Old 05-01-2012, 16:21   #54
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We have two forms of citizens in this country: natural born, who are citizens at the time of birth (gained by being born within the country or being born to American citizens abroad) and naturalized, those who attained citizenship after being born . There is no third citizenship status for those born in the country to foreign citizens.

The concept and definition of natural born citizenship is based in English common law and has been the same since colonial times.
Clear, concise and irrefutable.
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Old 05-01-2012, 17:19   #55
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Really? Illegal aliens can't be arrested, tried, and jailed by US government entities? I wonder how all those defense lawyers missed that?
If they are citizens of another country, they are subject to that country's jurisdiction. YOu can be a violator of our laws without being one of our citizens.
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Old 05-01-2012, 17:21   #56
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There is no third citizenship status for those born in the country to foreign citizens.
Correct. There is no third citizenship status because if you were born here to illegals, you are an ALIEN. NOT a citizen.
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Old 05-01-2012, 18:11   #57
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If they are citizens of another country, they are subject to that country's jurisdiction. YOu can be a violator of our laws without being one of our citizens.
As it's been pointed out in this thread previously, the U.S. government has jurisdiction over just about everyone within our borders. The only exception are foreign diplomats who are not subject to our jurisdiction and therefor can not be charged with crimes (or make their children eligible for citizenship). This has been hashed out in a number of court cases, some of which have been noted in previous posts of this thread.
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Old 05-01-2012, 18:27   #58
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Originally Posted by HarlDane View Post
We have two forms of citizens in this country: natural born, who are citizens at the time of birth (gained by being born within the country or being born to American citizens abroad) and naturalized, those who attained citizenship after being born . There is no third citizenship status for those born in the country to foreign citizens.

The concept and definition of natural born citizenship is based in English common law and has been the same since colonial times.
Clear, concise, and not one hundred per cent correct. Being born in a foreign country, even to American citizens, does not keep you from being a citizen, but it does keep you from being defined as a natural born citizen.

Except for the fact that the Panama Canal Zone was American territory at the time, John McCain would have had this problem (and strangely enough, the media asked him a lot of questions about that).

But, as I said before, if there is one thing the Obama Presidency will stand for, it is that apparently, none of that pesky stuff about Constitutional qualifications matters any more.
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Old 05-01-2012, 18:45   #59
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Clear, concise, and not one hundred per cent correct. Being born in a foreign country, even to American citizens, does not keep you from being a citizen, but it does keep you from being defined as a natural born citizen.
This is simply not true.
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Old 05-01-2012, 18:47   #60
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Clear, concise, and not one hundred per cent correct. Being born in a foreign country, even to American citizens, does not keep you from being a citizen, but it does keep you from being defined as a natural born citizen.
Not correct.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:48   #61
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Before you start quoting and citing court cases to make points, you might want to understand stare decisis a little better.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:51   #62
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If they are citizens of another country, they are subject to that country's jurisdiction. YOu can be a violator of our laws without being one of our citizens.
Being subject to another country's jurisdiction doesn't prevent them from being subject to ours as well.

What happened to Logic 101 these days, seriously?

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Old 05-02-2012, 09:33   #63
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I've always understood there to be two types of US Citizens.

Naturalized - Anyone who was born abroad and went from having a non-resident or resident alien status to citizenship via applying for citizenship.
and
Natural Born - Any person born on US soil and having US birthright citizenship, or any individual born abroad with a US citizen parent who can obtain their US passport via declaration for foreign birth abroad.


The whole thing is somewhat silly anyway. The concept the founders were after was allegiance to the US. They basically didn't want some rich guy loyal to the crown to become president.

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Old 05-02-2012, 10:04   #64
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Correct. There is no third citizenship status because if you were born here to illegals, you are an ALIEN. NOT a citizen.
That seems like a legal question and since the constitution expressly says those people are citizens, your opinion or wish to the contrary doesn't mean much.
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:07   #65
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If they are citizens of another country, they are subject to that country's jurisdiction. YOu can be a violator of our laws without being one of our citizens.
You seem to think being subject to our jurisdiction and being a citizen are the same thing. They are not. Any person within our country is subject to our jurisdiction unless they have something like diplomatic status (diplomatic immunity). If a person on vacation from England or Mexico commits a crime here, they are subject to U.S. jurisdiction - if they have a baby while they are here, it is a U.S. citizen, natural born and all, just the the 14th Amendment says.
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Old 05-02-2012, 18:01   #66
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Not true.

If you are an illegal alien, you cannot self-bestow citizenship by giving birth to a baby here because the illegal is not "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" and would not be covered by the 14th Amendment.

Anchor Baby is a fraudulent concept.
Seemed to be a lot of Republicans who thought anchor babies were a very real problem.

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Old 05-02-2012, 18:10   #67
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Correct. There is no third citizenship status because if you were born here to illegals, you are an ALIEN. NOT a citizen.
Do you have something more than opinion which supports that? Like a court case? Seemingly everyone else in the country sought to CHANGE the laws because currently babies born to illegals ARE citizens.

Otherwise there'd be no outrage over anchor babies, because they don't exist.

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Old 05-02-2012, 18:13   #68
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Clear, concise, and not one hundred per cent correct. Being born in a foreign country, even to American citizens, does not keep you from being a citizen, but it does keep you from being defined as a natural born citizen.
Completely wrong. US citizens have babies overseas who are citizens all the time. Had Obama's mother been slightly older, she would have bestowed citizenship upon Obama even if he HAD been born in Kenya even with his father being a Kenyan. She hadn't lived in the US for enough years after having turned 14 to qualify for that. So had he been born on foreign soil, Obama would NOT have been eligible for POTUS.

Randy

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Old 05-02-2012, 18:16   #69
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The whole idea that both parents have to be US citizens and drop the kid on US soil to be a natural born citizen is probably by far the stupidest birther theory out of a whole bunch of stupid theories.

Think for a moment. What nationality was Obama's father? Kenyan. Common knowledge. Never been denied. Everyone knows. If that disqualified him, why do you suppose the GOP didn't bother contesting it? It would be a slam dunk.

So unless you think the entire GOP is engaged in a conspiracy to put and keep an ineligible Democrat in the White House, you can't possibly believe that nonsense.

Randy

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Old 05-02-2012, 18:27   #70
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you can't possibly believe that nonsense.

Randy
You would think, but people can believe some bizarre stuff.

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:55   #71
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Completely wrong. US citizens have babies overseas who are citizens all the time. Had Obama's mother been slightly older, she would have bestowed citizenship upon Obama even if he HAD been born in Kenya even with his father being a Kenyan. She hadn't lived in the US for enough years after having turned 14 to qualify for that. So had he been born on foreign soil, Obama would NOT have been eligible for POTUS.

Randy
You are right - a baby born overseas to American citizen parents is an American citizen at birth, by law, so he is a natural born citizen - the prevailing legal theory is that one who is a citizen at birth is a "natural born cittizen" as opposed to anturalized. Even the title "natural born citizen" doesn't say "born here," it says "born a citizen."
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:43   #72
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Completely wrong. US citizens have babies overseas who are citizens all the time. Had Obama's mother been slightly older, she would have bestowed citizenship upon Obama even if he HAD been born in Kenya even with his father being a Kenyan. She hadn't lived in the US for enough years after having turned 14 to qualify for that. So had he been born on foreign soil, Obama would NOT have been eligible for POTUS.

Randy
You are getting naturalized citizen and natural born citizen mixed up. And, to tell you the truth, I just don't have the patience to explain it, with cites, one more single time.

Ignorance got us into this mess, it's not going to get us out.

It's a case of first impression (that means stare decisis doesn't mean crap here). And, it's a Constitutional issue. And, that means there is only one way to settle it. And, anyone here who has ever done a lot of litigation knows one simple rule that is pretty much absolute.

Those trying to get into court and a obtain a final determination of an issue, almost always believe they can win, and that's why they want to be there and get that.

Those trying to stay out of court, and avoid a final determination of an issue, almost always believe they will lose, and that's why they don't won't to be there, and get that.

Ask any lawyer you know if that is not true. That's why its so hard to bluff in court. It's not so hard to bluff in the media.

If you don't know the next question to ask, you are not even on the race track.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:04   #73
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http://travel.state.gov/law/family_i...birth_593.html

State Department Website plain as day. For children born abroad all it takes is one US Citizen parent and the child is at the time of birth a US Citizen.

Any child born abroad to a US Citizen parent is a US Citizen at birth and therefore "Natural Born"

Many countries have similar laws, without which you'd have people being born stateless.



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You are getting naturalized citizen and natural born citizen mixed up. And, to tell you the truth, I just don't have the patience to explain it, with cites, one more single time.

Ignorance got us into this mess, it's not going to get us out.

It's a case of first impression (that means stare decisis doesn't mean crap here). And, it's a Constitutional issue. And, that means there is only one way to settle it. And, anyone here who has ever done a lot of litigation knows one simple rule that is pretty much absolute.

Those trying to get into court and a obtain a final determination of an issue, almost always believe they can win, and that's why they want to be there and get that.

Those trying to stay out of court, and avoid a final determination of an issue, almost always believe they will lose, and that's why they don't won't to be there, and get that.

Ask any lawyer you know if that is not true. That's why its so hard to bluff in court. It's not so hard to bluff in the media.

If you don't know the next question to ask, you are not even on the race track.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:06   #74
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You are getting naturalized citizen and natural born citizen mixed up. And, to tell you the truth, I just don't have the patience to explain it, with cites, one more single time.
You're the one that is mistaken and refusing to listen to those in the thread (which include at least one attorney) explaining the simple legal facts. Natural born simply means "born a citizen". It comes straight out of English Common Law and has never been changed by either statute or court decision. It has however been upheld a number of times.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:06   #75
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I'm still waiting for the citation from the M v. H case that shows where the court defined 'Natural Born Citizen." I won't get it, because it isn't there, no matter how desperately he wishes it were.

No offense, Razorsharp.
I am reminded of the legend of the indigenous natives who could not see the Spanish ships when they first arrived, because they could not comprehend that such things existed.

You can play the semantics game over "defined" if you want, but the Court's opinion plainly states that what the Founders considered to be a natural born citizen, was one born in country to citizen parents.

That, by its very nature, is a definition.
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