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Old 05-23-2012, 16:48   #51
PimpStick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riz58 View Post
Good job, as always, Sam.

Here is a hypothetical that I think reflects the "borderline" where tough decisions must be made: This past Sunday afternoon, our ushers and security team ran a mock drill wherein an angry husband starts walking down the aisle in the service calling out the pastor. The husband is 5-10, about 240lbs of solid muscle - strong as a bull and hard as a rock.

The second time we ran the situation: Husband was confronted outside the sanctuary, but managed to evade escape, and came in a side door. Pastor protection designee scoots with pastor out the opposite side door. ( I was nearest the escape hatch on the opposite side of the sanctuary from the angry husband.) Six people are trying to block and stop the guy, but he is bulling through (there are some limitations to hands-on physical response in training). I had stepped up to block the escape door in case he broke through.

Question: Angry husband, shouting threats to pastor, just blew through five or six men by physical force, and is heading towards where you are guarding the door of the room where your pastor is now located. You are the only one left in front of him. Can you use deadly force (your firearm) to stop the angry husband from reaching the pastor?
I assume you mean by pulling the trigger, not unholstering and demanding him to stop. I'd say not yet (firing) at that point. Now we're getting into what Ayoon calls disparity of force, and I doubt at this point anyone is reasonably in fear for anyone's life. If he then, at that point, produces a weapon of any kind, yes. Or if he grabs the pastor, slams his head on the concrete and there's no chance of pastor fighting back, yes...
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Old 06-02-2012, 19:41   #52
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This thread has been a good read. It's near impossible to predict how a judge or jury will decide your fate. God forbid any of us ever find ourselves in the situation where we may have to take the life of another human being to protect ourselves or our loved ones. You do however need to consider that if you are charged, either in a court of law or civil court, that you risk the chance of life behind bars or penniless or both. These are responsibilities you must accept.

I've had the pleasure of attending one of Col. Dave Grossman's training seminars (The Bulletproof Mind for the Armed Citizen). This exact topic, along with many others, was presented to us. It really is eye opening to listen to uncensored facts pertaining to self defense in case law. I have read Mr. Ayoobs book: In the Gravest Extreme, listened to many of his podcasts, and watched countless YouTube videos of him. Both of these gentlemen are living legends.
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Old 06-02-2012, 20:02   #53
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
My own student shot in a 3:1 situation after taking blows to the head and was prosecuted vigorously (2 trials, both that ended in hung juries. No conviction, but more than one juror wanted to send him to prison.)
Sounds like the Larry Hickey case in Tucson.
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Old 06-04-2012, 09:18   #54
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Originally Posted by coqui33 View Post
Sounds like the Larry Hickey case in Tucson.
Did'ja see post #24?
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:09   #55
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Did'ja see post #24?
Oops. No, I did not. Sorry
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:45   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PEC-Memphis View Post
If found this to be an interesting case:

http://ostti.com/Hickey%20Booklet.pdf

Most likely the one mentioned in the OP.
Just read the case.

Could we use this fact pattern and identify a better hypothetical outcome for Mr. Hickey?

Please, do not misinterpret this post. All I am doing is using the fact pattern as a case study to identify what could have been done differently if anyone else was involved in a similar situation. Of course, in the middle of being pummeled and hit on the head with a glass bottle from out of nowhere, things go downhill quickly. There are no easy answers. Any statements made beyond this point are made solely for the sake of objective discussion and assessment.

Would the situation had been different if a can of pepper spray was the defensive weapon? Granted, the chances of the chemicals getting in the defendant's own face or his wife's face would be greater than usual, but this would represent the use of non-lethal force. Would the mere display of the pepper spray been a deterrent? And the timing of pepper spray deployment would also be a factor: It would have to come out before being hit on the head with the glass bottle (which may represent a "deadly weapon" in and of itself). I would imagine anyone subjected to that kind of aggravated battery would immediately be concerned that "grave bodily harm" was about to be committed, or just committed.

Or, would the mere display of his pistol been deemed adequate? Would it have been aggravated assault? What if the pistol was unholstered and in plain view of the assailants vs pointed at them?

And it is true that the beginning of Mr. Hickey's legal process went wrong in a number of ways. How can one ensure that the process addresses the defendants' statements and take on the assault? This would involve protocol regarding contacting 911. But what if the defendant mis-speaks, as things usually are heated when 911 is called? Possibly the installation of CCTV to monitor the perimeter of the house, including driveway / street area?

This armed vs unarmed situation sure is complicated.

Last edited by SFla27; 06-04-2012 at 13:10..
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Old 06-04-2012, 13:11   #57
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Originally Posted by SFla27 View Post
This armed vs unarmed situation sure is complicated.
We have a WINNER!

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Old 06-04-2012, 14:04   #58
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
We have a WINNER!

Indeed.

I just wonder if, given that scenario of facts, had the defendant made it clear he had some form of deterrent for self-defense, after pushing the two ladies away, if they would come back and resume their attack.

Then the defendant would communicate that the police were being called.

The display of pepper spray or even the pistol (holstered) at that moment would have to give the two ladies (or even two guys, in a similar fact pattern), pause. No?

They would have then be put on notice that if they continued their attack, there would be more serious consequences.

Flip side: Display of a pistol could be construed as aggravated assault, especially assuming the assailants get to 911 first and distort the truth.

My brain hurts...
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Old 06-04-2012, 15:52   #59
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Originally Posted by SFla27 View Post
Indeed.

I just wonder if, given that scenario of facts, had the defendant made it clear he had some form of deterrent for self-defense, after pushing the two ladies away, if they would come back and resume their attack.

Then the defendant would communicate that the police were being called.

The display of pepper spray or even the pistol (holstered) at that moment would have to give the two ladies (or even two guys, in a similar fact pattern), pause. No?

They would have then be put on notice that if they continued their attack, there would be more serious consequences.

Flip side: Display of a pistol could be construed as aggravated assault, especially assuming the assailants get to 911 first and distort the truth.

My brain hurts...
Every situation is a bit different, and the specifics matter. A lot.

To address your last point (okay, next to last; you need to take care of your own brain): AZ has a statute specifically allowing the defensive display of a firearm "when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force". We also allow for the threat of deadly force defensively. So, the defender has some built in protections against an aggravated assault charge. That's in AZ; as I said, the specifics matter, which includes your local laws.

Of course, all of this has to be done within the time and distance constraints that your assailants allow you, which is another issue.
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Old 06-04-2012, 15:57   #60
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Oops. No, I did not. Sorry
Just giving you a hard time - hard to read every post on a multi-page thread.
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Old 06-23-2012, 13:12   #61
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With me and my crippled right leg, I am an easy choice for even an unarmed opponent. My G17 would settle the issue.
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:53   #62
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Over the years I've known several folks that looked like ordinary guys. Not big muscle heads or crazed looking junkies; but, if they wanted to kill you with their bare hands, they probably could without much issue. For the record, they were good guys.

I bring this up becuase if a person is unarmed in the literal sense, that doesn't mean they are unarmed. If a person is willing to attack you, rob you, etc., then they are willing to cause you significant bodily harm or death. A sane resonable person does not go around attacking people. Thus, if you are attacked, you should realized your life is in jeopardy and use whatever force is needed to protect yourself. At least here in Texas, you are not required by law to square off and box with anyone.
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:41   #63
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I have a nerve-damaged right leg, which keeps me from retreating. If I am violently threatened by a bigger assailant, I may have to get out my G17 and shoot him.
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Old 10-28-2012, 17:27   #64
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Aren't you interchanging "Intent" with ability....not the same thing in my opinion.

http://youtu.be/EsQeTKnD_f0
Great video by Mas Ayoob.
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Old 10-28-2012, 17:55   #65
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PEC, et.al. - There are not 6 to 8 security guys left. Go with the facts stated: He has successfully defeated 5-6 people to get to this point - they are unavailable for whatever reason - It is one on one with the angry husband.

Pepper spray in an enclosed building with elderly people, young children, etc can be a dangerous option to them. This is a volunteer group, and I know of few civilians who own Tazers and fewer still trained with them.

Again, please quit adding to or picking apart the facts. No one asked for a dissection of the plan or woulda, coulda, shoulda: Accept the situation as it is. There you stand - facing an oncoming bad guy intent on attacking the pastor. The only weapon you have is your gun - What do you do?
Nothing. He is not attacking me, and he has not attacked the pastor. The more relevant question is, the pastor, what is he doing?


Now that I have answered your question, my turn:

Given the possibility of scenarios that can occur - that fall under the standard distribution of a bell curve, why are you picking one of the LEAST LIKELY scenarios that can occur to use in determining if DPF is justified?
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Old 10-28-2012, 17:57   #66
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I am a double below-the-knee amputee. If I am out of the house, I am either walking on two canes (short distances) or in a wheelchair (long distances). A 14 year old could inflict serious bodily injury or death on me easily.

I carry 24/7 when out of the house (a 1911 .45, and a good one). I am an excellent shot and practice regularly. Because I am a sitting duck otherwise.

I believe absolutely in the 21-foot rule. If someone is coming at me, and in my subjective judgement, he/she intends to inflict serious bodily injury or death on me, and they get within 21 feet of me, after disregarding my warnings to stop, then they will receive two (or more, depending upon the circumstances) .45 hollow-point rounds into center mass.

I will not be a victim.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:03   #67
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Sam, Mas taught it to me as AOJ--Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopady. Ability--does he have a weapon he can hurt you with? Opportunity--as you described. Jeopardy (or manifest intent) as you described in "Intent".

There ARE times when you can use deadly force against an "unarmed" opponent. When a great disparity in age or ability exists, when you KNOW he is a black belt or a UFC cage fighter, or when you are a 75 year old cancer survivor with one lung or a female.

Regarding time? This is why we think about these situations before we encounter them. decide what the triggers will be and how you articulate them to the jury. Plottin and plannin is as likely to save you from prison as your GLOCK is to save you from death or crippling injury (crippling injury is the definition of "grave bodily harm")

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Old 10-31-2012, 15:00   #68
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Very good info.

My question in regards to this topic is gang or mob related. Recent events have made us all think- we avoid areas where a gang attack might happen, we try to escape from the attack, we make every effort to avoid a confrontation. But now we are cornered or drug from a vehicle. To me it seems there is a definite chance of bodily harm to me. But the attackers are unarmed. My gut tells me pull and shoot, is this justified in the eyes of the law?

L.A. Riots Reginald Denny beating - YouTube
Wide spread criminality. Had I been at the truck that day, I would have had to go for my second 17-round magazine. I used to live in LA. I am glad to be in VT now.
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:40   #69
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Sam, Mas taught it to me as AOJ--Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopady. Ability--does he have a weapon he can hurt you with? Opportunity--as you described. Jeopardy (or manifest intent) as you described in "Intent".

There ARE times when you can use deadly force against an "unarmed" opponent. When a great disparity in age or ability exists, when you KNOW he is a black belt or a UFC cage fighter, or when you are a 75 year old cancer survivor with one lung or a female.

Regarding time? This is why we think about these situations before we encounter them. decide what the triggers will be and how you articulate them to the jury. Plottin and plannin is as likely to save you from prison as your GLOCK is to save you from death or crippling injury (crippling injury is the definition of "grave bodily harm")

Dan
This is but one of the several injuries which fall within the definition of serious bodily harm. The injury need not be crippling for it to be classed as serious bodily harm.

In addition, your attacker(s) need not have a weapon. He/they just need the ability to inflict serious bodily harm or worse.
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Old 11-08-2012, 17:52   #70
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I'm a 70 yo skinny man who is blind in one eye (wear a patch) and my L hand is impaired as a result of a table saw accident. I also use oxygen and carry a portable tank. Perception is reality. I believe that I'm viewed as vulnerable by most meaning my ability to defend myself.

My training has had to adapt to my physical challenges as they occurred. My reaction time meaning my ability to see or draw or process "threats" is even more important. I don't have 21 feet and I don't have 2-3 seconds to acquire, squeeze and move. The best "weapon" I have is still the ole noggin.

My worst fear and I sincerely mean this is that someone may decide to act on there perception of my vulnerability. I believe I only have one option should this occur. Makes me want to hang a sign around my neck that says, please do not pick a fight with a one eyed old man wearing a nose hose. If he's too tired to fight, he will just shoot you.

Seriously, all this to say that when I holster my pistol I'm reminded that my choices are fewer now and that the odds have probably increased that someone's perception could betray them.

YMMV
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Old 12-15-2012, 09:33   #71
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All of this emphasizes to me the need for an alternative measure of response. For myself I have, after talking to a number of LEOs who have used it, decided to carry pepper spray as my alternative. It gives me a choice in my level of response particularly when dealing with an unarmed adversary.
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Old 06-30-2013, 15:33   #72
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people will call it all kinds of things and use all sorts of diagram trees, color codes and force ladders but it all boils down to jeopardy. Is there jeopardy and if so- can you articulate that jeopardy reasonably.
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:48   #73
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Sam, are you saying that I must be injured and near unconsciousness before using deadly force against an "unarmed" attacker?
I'd rather not wait that long.
Perhaps carrying pepper spray is the answer.

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Old 07-06-2013, 09:07   #74
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Old 07-06-2013, 10:40   #75
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Sam, are you saying that I must be injured and near unconsciousness before using deadly force against an "unarmed" attacker?
I'd rather not wait that long.
Perhaps carrying pepper spray is the answer.

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No, sir, I am not saying that. If you *are* in that position, your case is certainally stronger, but you're not required to let it go so far. You are required, however, to be able to articulate that the other guy had the means, opportunity and intent to do such harm to you. Faced with this form of deadly force, your response with deadly force is reasonable.

For an attack that doesn't rise to that level, pepper spray would be a fine answer.
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