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Old 05-08-2012, 09:56   #41
cowboy1964
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Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
My 229 is my go-to carry gun, and it hides just as well as my 32 did, even though I currently use a holster for it I'm not a big fan of.
It's not the size of the 229 that is much of a problem, it's the weight. IIRC the 229 9mm is about 40oz loaded. The G19 is 30. 10 oz makes a big difference to me in terms of comfort.

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Old 05-08-2012, 23:11   #42
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Originally Posted by Amplified View Post
The ballistics of this round are quite impressive!

4.5" barrel - 1612fps
4.0" barrel - 1550fps
3.5" barrel - 1494fps


http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=124


Did you by chance stumble across the "claimed" ballistics of the 9x25 Dillon as loaded by Double Tap?

If there's any truth to them they make the above ballistics appear anemic by comparison with same weight bullets.
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Old 05-08-2012, 23:55   #43
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maybe, but you'd be a tard to carry one for SD. If you missed with your first shot you would have about 6 rds in you or a knife in your sternum from the BG before you got off a second shot.

gunfights are all about rapid accurate gunfire. hand cannons are for hunting bears or saying "everyone look at me" at the range
Your opinion, probably based on your lack of skill w/ a magnum handgun. Who says you can't have accurate large caliber, magnum, accurate & rapid fire? You connect w/ good bullets from a 44magnum & you won't need 6 hits, not even 5, maybe not more than one. Just because you can't doesn't mean others can't. My only issue w/ anything larger than a N-frame 44mag is size & wt. Certainly not the ability to shoot it fast & accurate. BTWm first shot times w/ a 9mm or 44mag rev would be about the same so????
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Old 05-09-2012, 01:08   #44
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Your opinion, probably based on your lack of skill w/ a magnum handgun. Who says you can't have accurate large caliber, magnum, accurate & rapid fire? You connect w/ good bullets from a 44magnum & you won't need 6 hits, not even 5, maybe not more than one. Just because you can't doesn't mean others can't. My only issue w/ anything larger than a N-frame 44mag is size & wt. Certainly not the ability to shoot it fast & accurate. BTWm first shot times w/ a 9mm or 44mag rev would be about the same so????
Excellent point. First, I was always surprised how quick my follow up shots were with the 44mag revolver I used to have. And yeah, first shot time puts everything on equal ground in terms of the time to get the first shot off in any reasonably sized platform.

Second, true, with proper load selection 44mag will incapacitate adversaries quicker than lesser cartridges therefore requiring less good hits per adversary should there be more than one.

With 9, 40, or 45,...well...I'll just wish you luck with either of them forcing a perp to stop what they were doing before you squeezed one or two off that weren't CNS hits. Luckily much of the time they simply give up either upon them seeing you have a weapon or after being shot, of their own free will.

357SIG seems to have the possibility of being a different story as I've heard about it racking up more one shot stops in it's still relatively short life history than normally seems apparent with 9, 40, or 45.

Of course I carry 10mm with virtually no relevant street credibility to back it up, so what do I know. To each their own.
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:40   #45
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Excellent point. First, I was always surprised how quick my follow up shots were with the 44mag revolver I used to have. And yeah, first shot time puts everything on equal ground in terms of the time to get the first shot off in any reasonably sized platform.
357SIG seems to have the possibility of being a different story as I've heard about it racking up more one shot stops in it's still relatively short life history than normally seems apparent with 9, 40, or 45.

Of course I carry 10mm with virtually no relevant street credibility to back it up, so what do I know. To each their own.
Many will poopoo higher vel impacts. I believe that once an expanding bullet gets to about 1500fps, it starts wounding more like a rifle. THis is only based on my personal exp shooting living things, but higher vel w/ good bullets does seem to produce better results than just poking caliber holes. The trick is getting a good bullet to hold together long enough to reach vitals. Why I am not a big fan of the super light wts in any caliber, they often just come apart too soon.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:11   #46
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Why I am not a big fan of the super light wts in any caliber, they often just come apart too soon.
With some of the lightest weight for caliber bullets available I am sometimes leery. I don't mind if the bullets come apart as long as they are generally known to reach the vitals the majority of the time.
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:02   #47
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May will poopoo higher vel impacts. I believe that once an expanding bullet gets to about 1500fps, it starts wounding more like a rifle. THis is only based on my personal exp shooting living things, but higher vel w/ good bullets does seem to produce better results than just poking caliber holes. The trick is getting a good bullet to hold together long enough to reach vitals. Why I am not a big fan of the super light wts in any caliber, they often just come apart too soon.

For some handgun bullets I'd even lower that down to 1,300 fps.

This is why I am intrigued with the Barnes SCHP's in handguns driven to über velocities as loaded by Buffalo Bore & Double Tap. I have only seen one bare gel test in a gun rag of the DT 9mm 80 gr. 9mm load and it was VERY impressive!! I'd sure like to see some more scientific testing of this platform.
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Old 05-09-2012, 15:23   #48
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I have chrono'd DoubleTap's 125gr Sierra 357Sig load out of a Glock 23 with a 4" Storm Lake drop-in barrel. Averaged ~ 1452fps but the extreme spread was like 130fps or thereabouts. IIRC the lowest was 1388 and the highest around 1510 or so (this is from memory but I did post the results here at the time).

Nonetheless, I would use that load without question.

ETA---looked it up and the low was 1388 and the high was 1542 for an extreme spread of 154fps! I was correct about the average velocity though of 1452.
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Old 05-09-2012, 16:33   #49
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I have only seen one bare gel test in a gun rag of the DT 9mm 80 gr. 9mm load and it was VERY impressive!!
Do you remember what the penetration was?
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Old 05-09-2012, 17:11   #50
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Do you remember what the penetration was?

It was over 12" and opened up great. That I do remember. However, remember it was a BARE ballistic gel test.
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Old 05-09-2012, 18:29   #51
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I have chrono'd DoubleTap's 125gr Sierra 357Sig load out of a Glock 23 with a 4" Storm Lake drop-in barrel. Averaged ~ 1452fps but the extreme spread was like 130fps or thereabouts. IIRC the lowest was 1388 and the highest around 1510 or so (this is from memory but I did post the results here at the time).

Nonetheless, I would use that load without question.

ETA---looked it up and the low was 1388 and the high was 1542 for an extreme spread of 154fps! I was correct about the average velocity though of 1452.
That is my issue w/ many ammo manuf numbers. They get one gun to read a high vel & then post that as the ammo's vel. BS for the most part. It should always be an average & come from at least 3 duff guns. Then I might start believing them.
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Old 05-09-2012, 18:47   #52
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I think the .357sig was pretty cool when it came out. It had its hay-day, came and went. I know there are still departments out there who stock it, but I'm not seeing it on walmart shelves, and its expensive when you find it. That makes it one of those "specialty rounds" and if I want a necked down .35cal I figure might as well buy that Glock 10mm and drop a 9x25 dillon barrel in it. I believe Buffalo Bore and Double Tap both make it. Go check out those ballistics and get back to me.
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Old 05-09-2012, 18:55   #53
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ETA---looked it up and the low was 1388 and the high was 1542 for an extreme spread of 154fps! I was correct about the average velocity though of 1452.
This extreme spread is why I like Speer, Federal, and Remington JHP self-defense ammo. The stats I've read on their ES numbers aren't nearly as wide, indicating better quality control.

It's critical that the first shot be accurate whatever the caliber (eliminating the which is the best caliber debate) so I want my carry ammo to be as consistent as possible. The numbers posted for DT's .357sig don't give me a problem since the low end certainly is normal caliber velocity, but I more often carry 9mm and prefer having more confidence in achieving acceptable velocity, where quality control definitely comes into play.

I don't remember the recent thread but Speer's .357sig ammo yielded a very narrow, consistent velocity spread. That's what I prefer.
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Old 05-09-2012, 19:02   #54
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I think the .357sig was pretty cool when it came out. It had its hay-day, came and went. I know there are still departments out there who stock it, but I'm not seeing it on walmart shelves, and its expensive when you find it. That makes it one of those "specialty rounds" and if I want a necked down .35cal I figure might as well buy that Glock 10mm and drop a 9x25 dillon barrel in it. I believe Buffalo Bore and Double Tap both make it. Go check out those ballistics and get back to me.
I believe .357sig is now the second-most issued state LEA caliber after the .40S&W, but that's from memory of a recent thread. Nevertheless, the cost of the 9X25 ammo is going to be higher and harder to find than .357sig.

As for "expensive" I was at Wal-Mart not an hour ago and the shelves are bare of nearly everything, with the prices of all ammo higher than it was a couple of months ago. Glad I stoked up on the 9mm and .357sig when I did.
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Old 05-09-2012, 21:01   #55
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I reload .357sig with 124gr JHP bullet for a little over $131 per 1000 rounds. If you only buy ammo at walmart yeah your better off with another caliber. I never saw 10mm or 9x25 at any walmart I ever visited so....
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Old 05-09-2012, 21:16   #56
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With 9, 40, or 45,...well...I'll just wish you luck with either of them forcing a perp to stop what they were doing before you squeezed one or two off that weren't CNS hits. Luckily much of the time they simply give up either upon them seeing you have a weapon or after being shot, of their own free will.

357SIG seems to have the possibility of being a different story as I've heard about it racking up more one shot stops in it's still relatively short life history than normally seems apparent with 9, 40, or 45.
Your smoking crack if you think that your 10mm will perform any better than a 9, 40, 45, or even a .357 sig in a SD situation. There is nothing magical about any of the SD cal's that includes 10mm and .357 sig.
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Old 05-09-2012, 21:36   #57
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I think the .357sig was pretty cool when it came out. It had its hay-day, came and went. I know there are still departments out there who stock it, but I'm not seeing it on walmart shelves, and its expensive when you find it. That makes it one of those "specialty rounds" and if I want a necked down .35cal I figure might as well buy that Glock 10mm and drop a 9x25 dillon barrel in it. I believe Buffalo Bore and Double Tap both make it. Go check out those ballistics and get back to me.
All of my local Wal-Marts still stock 357SIG, and so does the local Bass Pro.

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I believe .357sig is now the second-most issued state LEA caliber after the .40S&W, but that's from memory of a recent thread. Nevertheless, the cost of the 9X25 ammo is going to be higher and harder to find than .357sig.

As for "expensive" I was at Wal-Mart not an hour ago and the shelves are bare of nearly everything, with the prices of all ammo higher than it was a couple of months ago. Glad I stoked up on the 9mm and .357sig when I did.
Sounds about right to me. I know NC, VA, TN and TX all use it, along with US Secret Service, US Federal Air Marshal service, and plenty of others. 357SIG is definitely not dead in the water.
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Old 05-09-2012, 22:23   #58
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Your opinion, probably based on your lack of skill w/ a magnum handgun. Who says you can't have accurate large caliber, magnum, accurate & rapid fire? You connect w/ good bullets from a 44magnum & you won't need 6 hits, not even 5, maybe not more than one. Just because you can't doesn't mean others can't. My only issue w/ anything larger than a N-frame 44mag is size & wt. Certainly not the ability to shoot it fast & accurate. BTWm first shot times w/ a 9mm or 44mag rev would be about the same so????
Okay Dirty Harry. You carry your Smith 29 boat anchor around and I'll stick with my puny Glock 23. Apparently you did not read my post very carefully before running your suck. You obviously have never been in a gunfight or probably even seen one. Hint- it's not anything like on TV or when you are playing with your X-box. And when was the last time you saw a professional competitive shooter win anything with a hand canon competing against fast accurate shooting from an autoloader in a SD caliber. Never. Sonic booms don't win shooting games or real life gun fights.

I never said you might need 5 or 6 rds from a 9mm or 40 cal. I said IF you miss with with your 500 S&W first rd a BG (or cop) with any skills at all will be pumping 5 or 6 rds in your chest before you can detonate your second atomic bomb.

I've seen it happen up close and personal.
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Old 05-09-2012, 22:43   #59
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Okay Dirty Harry. You carry your Smith 29 boat anchor around and I'll stick with my puny Glock 23. You obviously did not read my post very carefully before running your suck. You obviously have never been in a gunfight or probably even seen one. Hint- it's not anything like on TV or when you are playing with your X-box.

I never said you might need 5 or 6 rds from a 9mm or 40 cal. I said IF you miss with with your 500 S&W first rd a BG (or cop) with any skills at all will be pumping 5 or 6 rds in your chest before you can detonate your second atomic bomb.

I've seen it happen up close and personal.
No need to get ugly. I am only pointing out the falacy of your statement. Shoot a 44mag a lot, you get really good with one, good enough to win a gunfight against the street trash. Now you want to bring in a trained Ninja, fine, but again, just pointing out your lack of gun knowledge. Even a 150yr old Colt45 SAA can win in a gunfight against a "better armed" attacker if the guy shooting it knows what he is doing & keeps his head. The shooter is always the defining factor, not so much the gun or ammo, of course luck always plays into theses things too. Far too may think or maybe need 15rds + two reloads to stop an assualt on their person, all fine if you are one of those. I am not.
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Old 05-09-2012, 23:04   #60
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No need to get ugly. I am only pointing out the falacy of your statement. Shoot a 44mag a lot, you get really good with one, good enough to win a gunfight against the street trash. Now you want to bring in a trained Ninja, fine, but again, just pointing out your lack of gun knowledge. Even a 150yr old Colt45 SAA can win in a gunfight against a "better armed" attacker if the guy shooting it knows what he is doing & keeps his head. The shooter is always the defining factor, not so much the gun or ammo, of course luck always plays into theses things too. Far too may think or maybe need 15rds + two reloads to stop an assualt on their person, all fine if you are one of those. I am not.
I've owned numerous 44 mags in the past but I'll take a good auto-loader to a gun fight any day over a wheelgun.

If you plan on winning a gun fight with a SA revolver forget Dirty Harry you better be Josie Wales and hope your better armed attacker is blind in one eye and can't see outta the other.

The "street trash" (gang bangers) here in NM actually spend some time shooting and trng to shoot cops and each other. I don't take them for granted.
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