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Old 05-23-2012, 07:00   #26
DrSticky
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This is a great subject that we could (and many people should) discuss over a beer. Unfortunately in our litigious society, I can only contemplate a response that I will not give in a permanent and written format.

That being said...

I am willing to negotiate with those who wish to do me, and my family, harm.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:45   #27
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I don't see what is so hard about "It's either me or them". When they have initiated it, I would have no problem doing what I need to do.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:29   #28
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If presented with no alternative, I will fight to defend myself, family, etc. But I will always seek to avoid a violent encounter until it cannot be avoided.
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Old 05-23-2012, 19:45   #29
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This pretty much sums up how I feel on the subject.
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Old 05-24-2012, 01:55   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TangoFoxtrot View Post
The bottom line is to avoid violence. I think if a civilians loved ones or supplies are threaten most will stand up and defend them.



I dunno, there's an awful lot of credible evidence that indicates most people will not willingly kill another human being without some significant conditioning.


For anyone who's interested, Col Grossman has a very informative book "On Killing" that gets into the nitty gritty of it.


But the long and short of it is, that most people, will not kill others. And that even though we've greatly increased our training to get people to fire, we're still struggling with getting people to actually aim to kill the enemy.
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Old 05-24-2012, 04:54   #31
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Have you ever been attacked before by someone that wanted to inflict harm on you or a loved one and what did you do?

I have been in some interesting situations earlier in my life..

Attacked by those wielding a chain, or broken bottles, or guns, or knives, or wooden batons/boards/tool handles, etc..

..or a combo of the above..

..one "friendly fire" close call was late one night when a Turkish soldier with a bayonet on his locked & loaded G3 jumped out of the bushes onto the road..

..yelled "Dur"...with his weapon pointed at me & him in a "not budging an inch" stance...

..with (long hair & fu-manchu mustache) me running full bore towards him down a hill in civilian clothes in a leather coat carrying a black bag. After he jumped out, I started yelling "Hava Asker, Hava Asker" & stopped so short his bayonet cut thru my coat & pricked my chest. Still amazed he did not pull the trigger (we were forbidden to wear uniforms off site
{TUSLOG Det 121} & had 35-10 hair waivers due to assassinations by leftist terrorists...I had just arrived back on site..I guess to him I looked like a leftist terrorist with a bomb... http://www.zone-interdite.net/P/zone_2930.html)

One of the most frightening was when I was just a skinny kid in the 9th grade...cornered in a darkened high school basement stairway & being robbed by a gang of "underprivileged minorities" with their knives & sharpened 'rakes' being pressed to my chest, throat & face. My new northside lily white high school had recently complied with a desegregation order (we had sold our home & moved away from a bad south-end neighborhood to get away from that sort of thing) & now had an influx of too-old-to-be-in-high-school-thugs...basically throwing wolves in a sheep pen! The next year, the entire 10th grade was then bussed across town to an all minority high school!! Interesting year that was!!
Easy to empathize with Bernhard Goetz during those years!


One such attack necessitated an ER visit..(the chain)

..the chain attack, the knife attack & a few others left permanent scarring..

..stabbed with a pencil a couple of times..

..still have a rise below my wrist from a tool handle being broken over my arm.

Been thrown thru a wall on more than one occasion!


In response...people have gotten injured...some seriously.. (I will leave it at that)..

..and I have used a firearm on more than one occasion to stop an assault!

I have stayed in an area so bad (drug deals, prostitution & gang activity...gunfire in parking lot), every time my roommate & I exited our room at night, our pistols were in hand (low ready) & we were providing mutual cover to make it safely to our vehicles. It was like a bad B-movie!

Situational awareness, posture, bearing (& my adult size ) have stopped many others without presenting a weapon!

Observation skills, situational awareness & divine providence were key in my recognizing the prep work of 3 operatives in a pending terrorist attack in Yesilköy, near Istanbul..

..a previous attack by the same cell had cut short the lives of 4 Americans (3 contractors & 1 NCO)!

The next would have almost certainly claimed at least 6 to 8 or more Americans...possibly myself included.

I consider that long ago incident my greatest achievement in life...so far!




Concerning the mindset of physical violence & predatory behavior...have read several books recently on the subject..

..in the order of those I liked best to worst...

"Facing Violence: Preparing for the Unexpected"





"The Little Black Book on Violence: What Every Young Man Needs To Know About Fighting"





"The Gift of Fear"






Wish they were around when I was younger..

..but I learned the hard way!


As far as using deadly force to protect the innocent..

One of my old quotes (now copyrighted? & on t-shirts by an enterprising relative)..

"Making the World a Better Place....One Bullet at a Time"


YMMV
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:14   #32
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Most people don't know how to apply violence in my opinion. I would rather be insulted to death and walk away from a fight and have done just that more than once. There is however a time for action and knowing when that is and not hesitating is the key to saving my life and the survival of my family or some innocent person. This is where most people screw up, not recognizing a deadly threat until it is too late or mistaking a hothead or or junkie for a physical threat when you can walk away from them if you have the ego for it.

That said I have a strong moral compass and a desire to protect the innocent that is very strong, so yes, I would not be bothered by using deadly force if I had to, and no I would not shoot someone that I could walk away from.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:46   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I dunno, there's an awful lot of credible evidence that indicates most people will not willingly kill another human being without some significant conditioning.


For anyone who's interested, Col Grossman has a very informative book "On Killing" that gets into the nitty gritty of it.


But the long and short of it is, that most people, will not kill others. And that even though we've greatly increased our training to get people to fire, we're still struggling with getting people to actually aim to kill the enemy.
This is exactly the reason I started the thread.

It is easy to say what one would do. But I feel is it foolish not to really examine what you would be capable of doing in a SHTF situation of any sort.

In fact not really looking deep into that subject could get yourself or others in deep trouble or even killed.

If you have been in a situation where someone has tried to cause you harm and you had to fight back then you know what you are capable of. If you have not then you need to think about it. Perhaps read up on the subject - the books mentioned are appreciated. LG1 appreciate your input.

Just something I think is important for those who are preparing. Hadn't seen the subject discussed here.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:52   #34
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Originally Posted by DoctaGlockta View Post
This is exactly the reason I started the thread.

It is easy to say what one would do. But I feel is it foolish not to really examine what you would be capable of doing in a SHTF situation of any sort.

In fact not really looking deep into that subject could get yourself or others in deep trouble or even killed.

If you have been in a situation where someone has tried to cause you harm and you had to fight back then you know what you are capable of. If you have not then you need to think about it. Perhaps read up on the subject - the books mentioned are appreciated. LG1 appreciate your input.

Just something I think is important for those who are preparing. Hadn't seen the subject discussed here.
Good post! Been there, done that, made up my mind that the innocent get protected at almost any cost and the guilty must be stopped at almost any cost from raping and killing the innocent.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:54   #35
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The truth is, some people can and will, and some people can't and won't.

And, from experience, it is sometimes really hard to tell who will be one way or the other, until that time comes.

The only ones who know for sure, are the ones who have already been there.
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Old 05-24-2012, 20:18   #36
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Yes I would, but I'd really rather rather not unless absolutely necessary.

+1,000,000 to "insulted to death and walk away"
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Old 05-25-2012, 06:32   #37
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The better question might be how many of us fight regularly and/or train regularly for the fight?

Here's a clue- the fight may involve more than just firearms
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:24   #38
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
For anyone who's interested, Col Grossman has a very informative book "On Killing" that gets into the nitty gritty of it.
There is a difference between tossing a 19 year old on a line with a rifle and saying "kill the enemy".

versus

Those people there want to steal your food, rape your daughters and kill the rest of your family. . so shoot back. .
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Old 05-26-2012, 23:26   #39
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There was a study dun some years back that questioned how far a person off the street would go when told by a person in control that every thing was fine. The set up was that the person off the street was told to push a red button every time a person got a question wrong and the yellow when they got it right. The control person would ask a question then tell the person off the street if the person got it right or not then he or she was to push the right button. If he pushed the red button he would here the person scream in pain. Out of the 100 people tested only eight refused to push the red button and out of the 100 two got up and walked out before they wold push the red button and hurt another person. That means that 82% of people would hurt some one because they were told to by a person in control. Now if they do that with nothing on the line what will they do to keep them and there family fed or safe? I think that most of mankind is about two steps from being animals. Look all around us the wars and what we do to each other. Yes we will kill and hurt each other. We do it every day around the world. Hear in the United States it just hasn't gotten that bad yet but we are all capable of great evil. We have proved it to many times.

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Old 05-27-2012, 06:46   #40
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There was a study dun some years back that questioned how far a person off the street would go when told by a person in control that every thing was fine. The set up was that the person off the street was told to push a red button every time a person got a question wrong and the yellow when they got it right. The control person would ask a question then tell the person off the street if the person got it right or not then he or she was to push the right button. If he pushed the red button he would here the person scream in pain. Out of the 100 people tested only eight refused to push the red button and out of the 100 two got up and walked out before they wold push the red button and hurt another person. That means that 82% of people would hurt some one because they were told to by a person in control. Now if they do that with nothing on the line what will they do to keep them and there family fed or safe? I think that most of mankind is about two steps from being animals. Look all around us the wars and what we do to each other. Yes we will kill and hurt each other. We do it every day around the world. Hear in the United States it just hasn't gotten that bad yet but we are all capable of great evil. We have proved it to many times.
That study was discredited years ago.

But, to your point, deprive people of food or limit calories and you can get people to do a lot of things to get food.
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:11   #41
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That's how the UN controls folks.'08.

Never become a refugee.
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:14   #42
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That study was discredited years ago.

But, to your point, deprive people of food or limit calories and you can get people to do a lot of things to get food.
Dexter is right about that not being a valid study, but I think that at the core, all humans are hard wired to kill for survival. Only our societal or moral values prevent us from doing so. I think that when the time comes, if it does, most ppl will do what they have to do to defend themselves. I could be wrong.
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Old 05-27-2012, 10:12   #43
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There was a study dun some years back that questioned how far a person off the street would go when told by a person in control that every thing was fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexters View Post
That study was discredited years ago.
The 'study' was done by Stanley Milgram. It was the seminal study on obedience and destructive behavior. A couple of things to remember -

1. Everybody tries to 'generalize' the results far beyond the specific conditions. Bad business to get into scientifically speaking.

2. The study was NOT discredited. It certainly had some ethical implications for doing such studies, and as mentioned, is highly criticized depending on how you want to use the results.

3. There were MANY variations of the study conducted (until that sort of study was shut down). They showed many credible 'general' results regarding people's willingness to harm others under many conditions that were far far less than SHTF.

It had some serious implications for the people involved that would absolutely convince you it was not bogus. It also raised quite a number of good questions. It was not the be-all end-all definitive work (nothing ever is) and it has been blown way far out of context (nothing ever should be). But one would be foolish to ignore it. Or over rely on it.

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Old 05-27-2012, 11:13   #44
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2. The study was NOT discredited.
It was discredited - you will have to find research it.

From what I can remember some of the problems were with how he advertized for and selected the participants - biased the results.

Also, not a double blind experiment. The professor was a key participant and wrote up the results and conclusions.

This is from memory so research it.
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:21   #45
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If threatened, yep.' 08.
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Old 05-27-2012, 17:04   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjv View Post
There is a difference between tossing a 19 year old on a line with a rifle and saying "kill the enemy".

versus

Those people there want to steal your food, rape your daughters and kill the rest of your family. . so shoot back. .


Somewhat.

But there's alot that is the same as well. Read the book. I'd bet you come away with a different understanding of the topic.

I read it after two deployments, and much experience, and it changed quite a bit about how I dealt/worked with it.
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Old 05-27-2012, 17:41   #47
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I found this on the experiment.
Discussion of the Milgram Experiment

While Milgram’s research raised serious ethical questions about the use of human subjects in psychology experiments, his results have also been consistently replicated in further experiments. Thomas Blass (1999) reviewed further research on obedience and found that Milgram’s findings hold true in other experiments.
Why did so many of the participants in this experiment perform a seemingly sadistic act on the instruction of an authority figure? According to Milgram, there are a number of situational factors that can explain such high levels of obedience:
  • The physical presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance.
  • The fact that the study was sponsored by Yale (a trusted and authoritative academic institution) led many participants to believe that the experiment must be safe.
  • The selection of teacher and learner status seemed random.
  • Participants assumed that the experimenter was a competent expert.
  • The shocks were said to be painful, not dangerous.
I read several articles on this experiment and in no place have I read that it was discredited. I have read that people didn't like his findings or how he went about getting them. I also think that it is of some concern that the information is being used by our military. It is my understanding that his information is being used be a lot of people and that many have built on it. It was never discredited.
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Old 05-28-2012, 18:21   #48
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If I felt myself or loved ones were threatened by someone or a group I'd like to think I'd react swiftly and effectively. Unless we're talking psychological warfare, pain would not be a variable. The point is to stop the enemy and protect myself/loved ones through whatever means necessary. SHTF/WROL just gives everyone far more options which I think is good for those that can think outside the box.

I don't care if you respect me, I don't care how big your group is, and I don't care how crazy you think you are. I will go until I die if need be. I was actually thinking about something a little different but similar in the shower today. If I ever found out my kid needed an organ or he would die quickly. I'd immediately get tested to see if I were a match and would have no problems helping him out post-mortem. Whether it be that or fighting "zombies"....I just need to know I did the right thing in the best interest of my family.

So yes, I would have no problem on a mental level using physical/lethal force against an enemy trying to do myself/loved ones harm.

But I think the more important thing to look at is the circumstances. I highly doubt that it'll be roving gangs or solitary thugs doing the harm. It'll be mothers and fathers trying to feed their kids. The have nots that never thought to prepare.

What would you do if it were an 80 year old grandmother limping to your door asking for food/water?

What about a 5 year old that lost their family and needed a place to stay?

I don't stress about the gangs or individuals....I think a lot about how I would react to the people I felt sorry for on some level. What if that were my kid? Would I want a stranger to ignore or kill them just because I was dead even though I did more than 90% of the people in this country to prepare?

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Old 05-28-2012, 18:26   #49
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I found this on the experiment.
Discussion of the Milgram Experiment

While Milgram’s research raised serious ethical questions about the use of human subjects in psychology experiments, his results have also been consistently replicated in further experiments. Thomas Blass (1999) reviewed further research on obedience and found that Milgram’s findings hold true in other experiments.
Why did so many of the participants in this experiment perform a seemingly sadistic act on the instruction of an authority figure? According to Milgram, there are a number of situational factors that can explain such high levels of obedience:
  • The physical presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance.
  • The fact that the study was sponsored by Yale (a trusted and authoritative academic institution) led many participants to believe that the experiment must be safe.
  • The selection of teacher and learner status seemed random.
  • Participants assumed that the experimenter was a competent expert.
  • The shocks were said to be painful, not dangerous.
I read several articles on this experiment and in no place have I read that it was discredited. I have read that people didn't like his findings or how he went about getting them. I also think that it is of some concern that the information is being used by our military. It is my understanding that his information is being used be a lot of people and that many have built on it. It was never discredited.
I didn't read every reply...but is this the one where they built a mock prison and some were prisoners and some were guards and the guards got really carried away and were cruel??

If so we looked at this quite a bit in undergrad.

We also looked at the diffusion of responsibility. Basically this is where someone is being harmed, tons of people watch, and no one calls for help or helps because they assume others are doing it.

Then you can look at historical accounts of soldiers intentionally missing their targets/enemy during battle.

I think statistics and experiments have their place but for every one someone can name you can name another one that contradicts it in some way.

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Old 05-29-2012, 08:27   #50
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Only in a last resort situation.
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