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Old 11-27-2012, 18:20   #321
Matthew Courtney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
As a first step, whatever test you develop is fine. Having it so others could repeat it is great.

But as a second step sampling becomes important. You, the OP, are not expected to sample because it would cost too much money. But you might not want to dismiss the idea in general.

If a bunch of stuff is made, and if we can't test them all, drawing a statistical sample allows an efficient way to estimate about the entire population of what was made. Industry does that on their own products they make (if they want to assure quality).
Without a doubt, larger samples will tend to produce more valid data sets than smaller samples. By the time we finish with these rifles, either the tecnologies or consumer preferences may be past the point where our data is even relevant, much less worth generating on a larger scale. We will see.
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Old 11-27-2012, 18:48   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Sport 095 *accuracy eval 7/6/2012 *am *temp 88 wind 260@3
Firing direction 262 *5 shot groups

Hornady 75 gr bthp match *1.672 *1.249 .887 avg *1.269

Black hills 77 gr bthp match *3.827 * 3.471 *2.673 avg 3.324

Fiochhi 50 gr v-max * *.619 *1.258 *1.161 avg 1.012

Avg of averages - 1.868 +-.2
On your facebook link, I believe the numbers for the Hornady 75gr and Black Hills 77gr are reversed.

I apologize if you've already addressed this. Just wanted to make sure of which one the gun likes more.
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Old 11-27-2012, 19:15   #323
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
On your facebook link, I believe the numbers for the Hornady 75gr and Black Hills 77gr are reversed.

I apologize if you've already addressed this. Just wanted to make sure of which one the gun likes more.
The numbers were reversed when I posted them here from our notes. The numbers on the Facebook page are the correct figures as they match our notes. One of the reasons we decided to simply start posting the data at a single location is to reduce the chances of publishing errors. Of course, the second to last column on the facebook page has the wrong inventory number for the Colt.

When we collect and the record the data we have 2 people verifying that we record it correctly in our notebook, so that is the copy "for the record". Any discrepancies are resolved by checking our original notes. If it is not in our original notes, it did not happen.
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Last edited by Matthew Courtney; 11-27-2012 at 19:20..
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Old 11-27-2012, 19:21   #324
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The numbers were reversed when I posted them here from our notes. The numbers on the Facebook page are the correct figures as they match our notes.
That's good news, as I'm a Black Hills fanboy
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Old 11-27-2012, 20:21   #325
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That's good news, as I'm a Black Hills fanboy

Glad to hear it! Plenty of Hornady fans gave me crap because the steel match does not like us.
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Old 11-27-2012, 21:27   #326
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Apparently there's a reason to: overload the mag and can't lock it into the mag well.
So overloading, and downloading are the only two possible options.

Loading the correct amount...no way we could possibly do that.

I didn't realize that loading 30 rounds into a 30 round magazine was such a difficult concept.
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Old 11-27-2012, 21:30   #327
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Old 11-27-2012, 21:46   #328
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I'm interested in seeing how these ARs are ran. Do you have video of your classes available?
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Old 11-27-2012, 22:01   #329
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I'm interested in seeing how these ARs are ran. Do you have video of your classes available?
Our security cameras pick up parts of the classes that are in and around our building, but which range we run various drills on varies based upon the size of the class, the weather, and what else we have scheduled on any given day.

What would you like to know?
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Old 11-27-2012, 22:23   #330
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I'm just trying to get a feel for how the classes are ran. This would make a big difference on the value of the 400 rounds ran through each carbine.
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Old 11-27-2012, 23:17   #331
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I'm just trying to get a feel for how the classes are ran. This would make a big difference on the value of the 400 rounds ran through each carbine.
Typically, the first half of the day is:
Safety Briefing
Check sling/pouches/holsters/gear for compatibility/safe handling issues
Review fundamentals of Marksmanship
Sight in Irons
Position practice fundamentals with irons
Sight in optic
Position practice fundamentals with optic
Practice reloads and malfunction clearances

AM drills fire about 125 rounds fired at a relaxed pace.

PM begins with a review of fighting mindset and basic tactics/use of cover
Adapted positions including movement to:
high cover left/right shoulder transitions
Medium height cover
Low Cover
Shooting under objects
Transitions to/from handgun
Extended Range(+100 yards civilian, + 300 yards DOE and DOD Contractors)
Low Light

Typically 275 rounds in the PM with an uptempo firing rate. Quite a few 20 round strings in 10-15 seconds for the skilled guys. Hits are emphasized more than speed for the guys who are new to defensive firearms skills.

The outdoor environment is an old SW Louisiana Rice field with berms constructed from topsoil and clay dug on site and a deck made from bottom ash trucked in from the Coal Fired Entergy plant in Westlake, La.

The primary foreign matter that ends up covering everything consists of fine river silt, pollen, and grass clippings. It is usually hot and humid. Blued firearms rust very fast. In a shotgun class last week, I had one guy oiling his double barrel every 30 minutes!

The guys who use our guns fall into two categories:
1. Those who want to take a class with a buddy, but has not bought an AR yet.
2. Those who have an AR that malfunctions repeatedly.

The guys in the first category take their time and are deliberate, for the most part. The guys in the second group act like they are trying to break our guns to prove that nothing is better than their gun. It is like watching a 16 year old in a rented sports car.

I am rarely the lead instructor in our carbine courses. I prefer to be in the role of Range Safety Officer for them. I am usually the lead in our pistol classes and I enjoy being able to observe and learn.
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Last edited by Matthew Courtney; 11-27-2012 at 23:22..
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Old 11-27-2012, 23:58   #332
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Cool. If you ever do some video I'd like to see it.

Took a look around the site. You had me until I got to the lime green text Kidding. Though it's not my cup of tea it is very popular.

Last edited by mjkeat; 11-28-2012 at 00:04..
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:59   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Loading the correct amount...no way we could possibly do that.

I didn't realize that loading 30 rounds into a 30 round magazine was such a difficult concept.
Apparently it is, otherwise Matthew wouldn't have reported it.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:48   #334
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Apparently it is, otherwise Matthew wouldn't have reported it.
Yes, somebody slipped up and put 31 rounds into their 30 round magazine. That doesn't mean that people need to download to 28 rounds.

It means that people shouldn't overload to 31.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:47   #335
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Yes, somebody slipped up and put 31 rounds into their 30 round magazine. That doesn't mean that people need to download to 28 rounds.

It means that people shouldn't overload to 31.
I think you had a good solution in post 312. It was to push down on the top cartridge of the mag and if you fingertip goes through the feedlips about 1/4-3/8 inch, the mag is loaded with the correct # of cartridges.
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Last edited by Matthew Courtney; 11-28-2012 at 11:49..
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:59   #336
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
I think you had a good solution in post 312. It was to push down on the top cartridge of the mag and if you fingertip goes through the feedlips about 1/4-3/8 inch, the mag is loaded with the correct # of cartridges.
Works great in my experience as a double-check when you finish, just in case you mis counted, lost count, weren't counting, etc.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:53   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Yes, somebody slipped up and put 31 rounds into their 30 round magazine. That doesn't mean that people need to download to 28 rounds.

It means that people shouldn't overload to 31.
Loading to 28-rounds means that it won't get overloaded to 31 rounds.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:54   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
I think you had a good solution in post 312. It was to push down on the top cartridge of the mag and if you fingertip goes through the feedlips about 1/4-3/8 inch, the mag is loaded with the correct # of cartridges.
Either that or load the magazines off stripper clips. Three clips to a mag, problem solved.
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Old 11-28-2012, 14:17   #339
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Works great in my experience as a double-check when you finish, just in case you mis counted, lost count, weren't counting, etc.
Jeff and Morris are usually coaching the shooters while they are loading, so keeping count probably is not easy. Since neither Jeff nor Morris used or trained with pmags back when they snacked on snakes, they were not aware of this issue. James used pmags extensively during his 04/05 deployment with the 256th, and he was the one who helped me identify the issue with my Colt/PSA pseudo reece. I do not think that I ever loaded a 5.56 pmag until we got the sport, although I use pmags exclusively in my LR-308's and while it is possible to overload those by one, you really have to be pushing down hard to do it.
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Old 11-28-2012, 20:19   #340
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Loading to 30-rounds means that it won't get overloaded to 31 rounds.
And there you have it.
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