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Old 05-23-2012, 04:57   #26
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Well, as we discussed in prior threads, Louisiana Shooters Unlimited is purchasing a S&W M&P 15 Sport and a Colt 6920 for students to use during our carbine courses. We will take photos, record round counts, keep track of ammo types, document issues, and keep the rifles close together in terms of rounds down range. Every 1500 rounds or so, we will shoot the rifles for groups. Any thing else that we should measure or track over the life of the rifles to give an accurate review of the two rifles as we track their use in identical harsh training environments?

Thoughts?
I happen to own both. So far one does not out perform the other in reliabilty, performance, accuracy or quality.
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Old 05-23-2012, 05:40   #27
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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
Not a real good policy to have when teaching anything. Things change, better products come out better techniques surface. Being flexible is important.

If it was me class I would edit my original post. I wouldn't think that statement would be to good for business.

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Lubrication methods are optimized for one's environment. As we are in South Louisiana, we will use what works in this environment without regard for what is optimal in the desert. We need to prepare for the next fight, not the last one.

When I noticed Plank lived in Florida, and sinced he referenced a test by someone in a southern coastal state with a proven track record that I was able to confirm through multple sources, I decided to present his thoughts to my guys, three-fourths of them spent years in places like the jungles of central and south America. The lubrication methods that worked from 1989-2010 in Venezuela, Panama, and Colombia are not likely outdated in 2012 in Louisiana, but trainers who change how they do things each time a fad develops have been outdated here for a long time.

Two of the guys we worked with last week end do a fair amount of work aboard ships in hostile areas, and they have gone back to two point slings and running their guns wet, because they have found anti-piracy differs from house clearing and marine environments differ from the desert.
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:20   #28
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Any thoughts on whether to replace parts with stock parts from the original manufacturers or to use similar "off the shelf" parts on both rifles? We know that we want to go with midlength barrels and light weight ff rails when we rebarrel and are leaning toward using the inventory of high quality parts kept on hand for repair of student rifles, but we are open to other ideas.
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:48   #29
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Any thoughts on whether to replace parts with stock parts from the original manufacturers or to use similar "off the shelf" parts on both rifles? We know that we want to go with midlength barrels and light weight ff rails when we rebarrel and are leaning toward using the inventory of high quality parts kept on hand for repair of student rifles, but we are open to other ideas.
For extractors, springs, and bcg's, definitely go BCM across the board.

Im closer to the Gulf than you are, and corrosion hasn't been. Problem except for a bit more rust on my P7. Then again, not like I take my guns swimming, so I wouldn't expect much in the rust and corrosion department.

Bonus benefit to slip 2k is it wont stain clothes and such anywhere near as much as motor oil will.

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Old 05-23-2012, 07:15   #30
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I look forward to reading the results of your long term test of these two. Frankly I look for the Colt to do better, but I've been surprised before.
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:27   #31
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Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
For extractors, springs, and bcg's, definitely go BCM across the board.

Im closer to the Gulf than you are, and corrosion hasn't been. Problem except for a bit more rust on my P7. Then again, not like I take my guns swimming, so I wouldn't expect much in the rust and corrosion department.

Bonus benefit to slip 2k is it wont stain clothes and such anywhere near as much as motor oil will.

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My range has been submerged by the gulf twice since 2005 and Calcasieu lake is 3 miles away. We are surrounded on 3 sides by brackish estuaries within 2 miles. Stainless firearms rust here. Melonited firearms like my Glocks and Xdm's rust here without corrosion x.

While BCM sells high quality replacement parts, these will not be fighting rifles. Wouldn't keeping them stock give more valid data than upgrading to BCM? An average life of Stock extractors would seem to be more meaningful than how long BCM extractors last in an S&W.

Keep in mind the goal is to gather valid data, not to make the rifles über reliable.
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:28   #32
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I wouldn't change any parts until they need to be changed. Perform the test using an all factory gun. Changing parts isn't going to help validate the test results. If you say you are testing an M&P 15 Sport but it has all BCM internals then you really are not testing an M&P Sport.
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:43   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post

While BCM sells high quality replacement parts, these will not be fighting rifles. Wouldn't keeping them stock give more valid data than upgrading to BCM? An average life of Stock extractors would seem to be more meaningful than how long BCM extractors last in an S&W.

Keep in mind the goal is to gather valid data, not to make the rifles über reliable.
THIS makes sense to me.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:22   #34
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I wouldn't change any parts until they need to be changed. Perform the test using an all factory gun. Changing parts isn't going to help validate the test results. If you say you are testing an M&P 15 Sport but it has all BCM internals then you really are not testing an M&P Sport.
Definitely not going to change anything until it fails or until measurable/observable wear or performance issues indicate replacement is required.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:48   #35
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If you want to simply test rifle vs rifle, then replace parts with the same factory part in order to ascertain whether or not there were multiple failures, etc. (it sounds like this is the premise of your comparison)

If you were wanting to make the gun reliable over the long haul, then I would say replace parts with BCM internals, etc.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:08   #36
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Originally Posted by Gary1911A1 View Post
I look forward to reading the results of your long term test of these two. Frankly I look for the Colt to do better, but I've been surprised before.
The Colt should be expected to do better, since it is an 80% increase in cost over the Sport, using Matthew's initial costs.

Matthew, what rifles do you currently use, and what is the mean time between failures that you see with those rifles? Just wondering how long before we see any data or reports of failures.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:48   #37
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
My range has been submerged by the gulf twice since 2005 and Calcasieu lake is 3 miles away. We are surrounded on 3 sides by brackish estuaries within 2 miles. Stainless firearms rust here. Melonited firearms like my Glocks and Xdm's rust here without corrosion x.

While BCM sells high quality replacement parts, these will not be fighting rifles. Wouldn't keeping them stock give more valid data than upgrading to BCM? An average life of Stock extractors would seem to be more meaningful than how long BCM extractors last in an S&W.

Keep in mind the goal is to gather valid data, not to make the rifles über reliable.
Sorry, should clarify. Was suggesting to shoot guns stock, and order replacements from BCM as stock parts fail. I don't consider BCM to be more reliable than usual, but instead that BCM makes proper milspec parts, and other companies can be sub-par. I wasn't suggesting an outright swap to BCM parts out the gate, just as other bits fail

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Old 05-23-2012, 10:53   #38
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Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
The Colt should be expected to do better, since it is an 80% increase in cost over the Sport, using Matthew's initial costs.

Matthew, what rifles do you currently use, and what is the mean time between failures that you see with those rifles? Just wondering how long before we see any data or reports of failures.

Before 2012, we had very few clients who didn't have their own rifles, so our Bushmaster xm-15 and our Colt Hbar sportier didn't see heavy use. Round count on the bushmaster is 2200 with no issues and the colt has about 1800 rounds down range and it will not reliably run wolf. Our high round rental rifle right now is a S&W 15-22 with over 8000 rounds down range. The 15-22 sometimes has feeding issues when one's weak hand contacts the magazine when firing, but otherwise has been 100%.

This year, our rental rifles have been seeing about 800 rounds/month, so any issues before 2013 will be noteworthy. By the end of 2013, we should have measurable wear to compare/contrast between the 2.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:04   #39
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I highly doubt you will see any difference. Especially if you clean them.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:05   #40
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Long term test

Off topic:
I don't own either rifle, nor do I have pistol by either maker.

Colt CS ticked me off over a Defender 45, so I sold it and another Colt 45 (Colt free and will stay that way).

S&W sticks internal locks on handguns; I couldn't buy a S&W rifle without indirectly supporting the IL philosophy.

It would be ironic (to me) if the bolt (or whatever) on the Colt broke first. S&W cut corners and left off the dustcover, forward assist, and chrome lined barrel; the Colt is built to military specs. All the, "Buy a Colt, DD, or BCM" folks will

If the Colt does fail first, you can count on responses to the effect that this was only one example and that under different circumstances... different lube.... different ammo... different ____ the result would be different.
Back to topic:

I think it's an interesting test / comparison.
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:49   #41
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Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
Long term test

Off topic:
I don't own either rifle, nor do I have pistol by either maker.

Colt CS ticked me off over a Defender 45, so I sold it and another Colt 45 (Colt free and will stay that way).

S&W sticks internal locks on handguns; I couldn't buy a S&W rifle without indirectly supporting the IL philosophy.

It would be ironic (to me) if the bolt (or whatever) on the Colt broke first. S&W cut corners and left off the dustcover, forward assist, and chrome lined barrel; the Colt is built to military specs. All the, "Buy a Colt, DD, or BCM" folks will

If the Colt does fail first, you can count on responses to the effect that this was only one example and that under different circumstances... different lube.... different ammo... different ____ the result would be different.
Back to topic:

I think it's an interesting test / comparison.
There is only one valid way to reduce the value of data collected in a scientific test. All someone would have to do is mirror the test and record more data to add to the data set. With a larger data set, one would have a higher level of validity. As we have randomly purchased at retail, the samples fairly represent what consumers are likely to get. Consumer Reports Magazine has been evaluating manufactured goods in this manner for years. If anyone else wants to commit several thousand dollars to doing tests, all the better....
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:53   #42
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I highly doubt you will see any difference. Especially if you clean them.
Since we need a hypothesis, let it be to the effect that one will eventually fail, and that they will not both fail in the same manner at the same time.
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:56   #43
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Sorry, should clarify. Was suggesting to shoot guns stock, and order replacements from BCM as stock parts fail. I don't consider BCM to be more reliable than usual, but instead that BCM makes proper milspec parts, and other companies can be sub-par. I wasn't suggesting an outright swap to BCM parts out the gate, just as other bits fail

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Given the service one may expect from Colt, replacing
Colt parts with BCM could be an OK plan. To replace S&W parts with BCM or S&W?
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Old 05-23-2012, 14:19   #44
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... but trainers who change how they do things each time a fad develops have been outdated here for a long time.
I would hope that your instructors do not consider every development, whether in training methodology or weapons maintenance, to be a fad.

Slip 2000 has been around for a few years now and has been vetted both by instructors and direct action types from various backgrounds, be it law enforcement or military backgrounds.

For clarity's sake, and I do not mean to offend, the vagueness of the background information concerning your instructors makes it somewhat difficult to validate your testing. Your website provides no further insight. For all we know you and the other instructors could be representing Colt or S&W's interests. Now I am not accusing you or your colleagues of anything, I just like to know that the opinions I consider come from a qualified source.

Do you plan on expounding on your collective backgrounds, here or on the site, in the future?

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Old 05-23-2012, 15:31   #45
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I would hope that your instructors do not consider every development, whether in training methodology or weapons maintenance, to be a fad.

Slip 2000 has been around for a few years now and has been vetted both by instructors and direct action types from various backgrounds, be it law enforcement or military backgrounds.

For clarity's sake, and I do not mean to offend, the vagueness of the background information concerning your instructors makes it somewhat difficult to validate your testing. Your website provides no further insight. For all we know you and the other instructors could be representing Colt or S&W's interests. Now I am not accusing you or your colleagues of anything, I just like to know that the opinions I consider come from a qualified source.

Do you plan on expounding on your collective backgrounds, here or on the site, in the future?

Cheers,
Dan
All the relavent information about our qualifications is on our Website or in this thread, and the testing procedures will be posted here. I do not give out any information about anyone we work with unless I have their explicit consent, so if you have specific questions, ask those questions and I will see what we can tell you. We are not going to be offering opinions, only data. If people ask questions about the data, we will do our best to answer those questions. Since you are an anonymous guy on the web, most of my guys will likely wish to remain the same.

Louisiana Shooters Unlimited is an educational institution which has been providing firearms training since the 256th returned from it's 2004-2005 deployment in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. I co-founded Louisiana Shooters with Col. Daniel McLemore, who commanded the 256th during that deployment. I know most of the firearms instructors in Louisiana and all of our business is dependent upon referrals, so our reputation is the most valuable asset we have. If you are interested in taking a course from us, let us know what type of course and I will provide you appropriate references. We work with Dod contractors, Doe contractors, and are experienced developing POI to meet most contract and operational requirements.
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Old 05-23-2012, 16:38   #46
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You know, I don't want to derail this thread for it's original purpose.

I know several companies that share their background information, if you chose not to that is your choice.

Good luck with your testing.

Cheers,
Dan
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Last edited by pleaforwar; 05-23-2012 at 16:47..
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Old 05-23-2012, 16:49   #47
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I think once you have to replace parts (if the round count is equal between both guns) then the test is over. Most of us have a common interest when comparing the two.........1) Reliability and 2) Failure of parts when both guns are used in the same manner and have equal or close to equal round counts.

Last edited by Bimmer1; 05-23-2012 at 16:53..
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Old 05-23-2012, 17:15   #48
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Old 05-23-2012, 17:54   #49
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keep both of them equally wet.
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Old 05-23-2012, 20:47   #50
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I happen to own both. So far one does not out perform the other in reliabilty, performance, accuracy or quality.
Thanks for that.
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