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Old 05-22-2012, 22:07   #21
Matthew Courtney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
I've been using it everywhere I have needed oil-type lube of late, and it's been fantastic. Everything from my Mk. 18 to my shotgun and handguns all get it. It sticks around, doesn't cook off too quickly, doesn't evaporate during carry OR storage in a safe with dessicant.

At this point, the only other lube I will use is a grease for handgun slide rails and internals of my P7. The SLiP 2k is that damn good. Plus, you can adequately lube a BCG with about 5 drops, or soak it with about 8-10, so a 4oz bottle lasts quite a while. I still have well over half my 4oz bottle of S2K gun lube left over after a year of judicious use. It's getting relegated to handgun and shotgun duty (they get less oil than the AR) and the new EWL bottle is exclusively for AR use.
I use grease on some handgun rails, too. I clean the pistols personally, probably because the rental/loaner pistols get used in the low round courses, so they can go a while between cleanings. I am testing an XD to see if corrosion x works on it well enough to preclude a need for oil or grease.
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Old 05-22-2012, 22:17   #22
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My guys are used to running 'em wetter than that, and I doubt that they are going to change to try out the latest in whiz bang super lubes. It wouldn't be hard to show 'em, but guys who have been doing something the same way for 20+ years (some for 40 +) are not going to change because some guy on the internet suggested it.
Not a real good policy to have when teaching anything. Things change, better products come out better techniques surface. Being flexible is important.

If it was me class I would edit my original post. I wouldn't think that statement would be to good for business.

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Old 05-22-2012, 22:17   #23
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Slip 2000 EWL is a really good lube. It certainly will not disappoint you, it seems thin but surprisingly does not cook off. It just didn't really solve any problems for me that Mobil 1 10w-30 can't. Mobil 1 10w-30 and ATF in a 50/50 mixture works extremely well. Keep us updated on the test, should be good info.
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Old 05-22-2012, 23:27   #24
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Slip 2000 is "neat" for sure, but I'm gonna second a mix of mobil 1 and ATF working just fine.

Hopefully this thread will last long enough to see the results of the test.
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Old 05-23-2012, 02:03   #25
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Subscribed. OP, thanks for volunteering to take the time and effort. Really interested to see how they stack up.

Regardless of what lube you use, how wet you run em, etc, somebody/everybody will bring into question the results of your testing. Its a guarantee on a GT forum . As long as you treat the rifles the same, you've maintained the integrity of the testing (from a scientific standpoint anyway).

Good luck, looking forward to it!
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Old 05-23-2012, 04:57   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Well, as we discussed in prior threads, Louisiana Shooters Unlimited is purchasing a S&W M&P 15 Sport and a Colt 6920 for students to use during our carbine courses. We will take photos, record round counts, keep track of ammo types, document issues, and keep the rifles close together in terms of rounds down range. Every 1500 rounds or so, we will shoot the rifles for groups. Any thing else that we should measure or track over the life of the rifles to give an accurate review of the two rifles as we track their use in identical harsh training environments?

Thoughts?
I happen to own both. So far one does not out perform the other in reliabilty, performance, accuracy or quality.
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Old 05-23-2012, 05:40   #27
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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
Not a real good policy to have when teaching anything. Things change, better products come out better techniques surface. Being flexible is important.

If it was me class I would edit my original post. I wouldn't think that statement would be to good for business.

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Lubrication methods are optimized for one's environment. As we are in South Louisiana, we will use what works in this environment without regard for what is optimal in the desert. We need to prepare for the next fight, not the last one.

When I noticed Plank lived in Florida, and sinced he referenced a test by someone in a southern coastal state with a proven track record that I was able to confirm through multple sources, I decided to present his thoughts to my guys, three-fourths of them spent years in places like the jungles of central and south America. The lubrication methods that worked from 1989-2010 in Venezuela, Panama, and Colombia are not likely outdated in 2012 in Louisiana, but trainers who change how they do things each time a fad develops have been outdated here for a long time.

Two of the guys we worked with last week end do a fair amount of work aboard ships in hostile areas, and they have gone back to two point slings and running their guns wet, because they have found anti-piracy differs from house clearing and marine environments differ from the desert.
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:20   #28
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Any thoughts on whether to replace parts with stock parts from the original manufacturers or to use similar "off the shelf" parts on both rifles? We know that we want to go with midlength barrels and light weight ff rails when we rebarrel and are leaning toward using the inventory of high quality parts kept on hand for repair of student rifles, but we are open to other ideas.
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:48   #29
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Any thoughts on whether to replace parts with stock parts from the original manufacturers or to use similar "off the shelf" parts on both rifles? We know that we want to go with midlength barrels and light weight ff rails when we rebarrel and are leaning toward using the inventory of high quality parts kept on hand for repair of student rifles, but we are open to other ideas.
For extractors, springs, and bcg's, definitely go BCM across the board.

Im closer to the Gulf than you are, and corrosion hasn't been. Problem except for a bit more rust on my P7. Then again, not like I take my guns swimming, so I wouldn't expect much in the rust and corrosion department.

Bonus benefit to slip 2k is it wont stain clothes and such anywhere near as much as motor oil will.

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Old 05-23-2012, 07:15   #30
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I look forward to reading the results of your long term test of these two. Frankly I look for the Colt to do better, but I've been surprised before.
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:27   #31
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Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
For extractors, springs, and bcg's, definitely go BCM across the board.

Im closer to the Gulf than you are, and corrosion hasn't been. Problem except for a bit more rust on my P7. Then again, not like I take my guns swimming, so I wouldn't expect much in the rust and corrosion department.

Bonus benefit to slip 2k is it wont stain clothes and such anywhere near as much as motor oil will.

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My range has been submerged by the gulf twice since 2005 and Calcasieu lake is 3 miles away. We are surrounded on 3 sides by brackish estuaries within 2 miles. Stainless firearms rust here. Melonited firearms like my Glocks and Xdm's rust here without corrosion x.

While BCM sells high quality replacement parts, these will not be fighting rifles. Wouldn't keeping them stock give more valid data than upgrading to BCM? An average life of Stock extractors would seem to be more meaningful than how long BCM extractors last in an S&W.

Keep in mind the goal is to gather valid data, not to make the rifles über reliable.
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:28   #32
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I wouldn't change any parts until they need to be changed. Perform the test using an all factory gun. Changing parts isn't going to help validate the test results. If you say you are testing an M&P 15 Sport but it has all BCM internals then you really are not testing an M&P Sport.
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:43   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post

While BCM sells high quality replacement parts, these will not be fighting rifles. Wouldn't keeping them stock give more valid data than upgrading to BCM? An average life of Stock extractors would seem to be more meaningful than how long BCM extractors last in an S&W.

Keep in mind the goal is to gather valid data, not to make the rifles über reliable.
THIS makes sense to me.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:22   #34
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I wouldn't change any parts until they need to be changed. Perform the test using an all factory gun. Changing parts isn't going to help validate the test results. If you say you are testing an M&P 15 Sport but it has all BCM internals then you really are not testing an M&P Sport.
Definitely not going to change anything until it fails or until measurable/observable wear or performance issues indicate replacement is required.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:48   #35
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If you want to simply test rifle vs rifle, then replace parts with the same factory part in order to ascertain whether or not there were multiple failures, etc. (it sounds like this is the premise of your comparison)

If you were wanting to make the gun reliable over the long haul, then I would say replace parts with BCM internals, etc.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:08   #36
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I look forward to reading the results of your long term test of these two. Frankly I look for the Colt to do better, but I've been surprised before.
The Colt should be expected to do better, since it is an 80% increase in cost over the Sport, using Matthew's initial costs.

Matthew, what rifles do you currently use, and what is the mean time between failures that you see with those rifles? Just wondering how long before we see any data or reports of failures.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:48   #37
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My range has been submerged by the gulf twice since 2005 and Calcasieu lake is 3 miles away. We are surrounded on 3 sides by brackish estuaries within 2 miles. Stainless firearms rust here. Melonited firearms like my Glocks and Xdm's rust here without corrosion x.

While BCM sells high quality replacement parts, these will not be fighting rifles. Wouldn't keeping them stock give more valid data than upgrading to BCM? An average life of Stock extractors would seem to be more meaningful than how long BCM extractors last in an S&W.

Keep in mind the goal is to gather valid data, not to make the rifles über reliable.
Sorry, should clarify. Was suggesting to shoot guns stock, and order replacements from BCM as stock parts fail. I don't consider BCM to be more reliable than usual, but instead that BCM makes proper milspec parts, and other companies can be sub-par. I wasn't suggesting an outright swap to BCM parts out the gate, just as other bits fail

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Old 05-23-2012, 10:53   #38
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The Colt should be expected to do better, since it is an 80% increase in cost over the Sport, using Matthew's initial costs.

Matthew, what rifles do you currently use, and what is the mean time between failures that you see with those rifles? Just wondering how long before we see any data or reports of failures.

Before 2012, we had very few clients who didn't have their own rifles, so our Bushmaster xm-15 and our Colt Hbar sportier didn't see heavy use. Round count on the bushmaster is 2200 with no issues and the colt has about 1800 rounds down range and it will not reliably run wolf. Our high round rental rifle right now is a S&W 15-22 with over 8000 rounds down range. The 15-22 sometimes has feeding issues when one's weak hand contacts the magazine when firing, but otherwise has been 100%.

This year, our rental rifles have been seeing about 800 rounds/month, so any issues before 2013 will be noteworthy. By the end of 2013, we should have measurable wear to compare/contrast between the 2.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:04   #39
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I highly doubt you will see any difference. Especially if you clean them.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:05   #40
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Long term test

Off topic:
I don't own either rifle, nor do I have pistol by either maker.

Colt CS ticked me off over a Defender 45, so I sold it and another Colt 45 (Colt free and will stay that way).

S&W sticks internal locks on handguns; I couldn't buy a S&W rifle without indirectly supporting the IL philosophy.

It would be ironic (to me) if the bolt (or whatever) on the Colt broke first. S&W cut corners and left off the dustcover, forward assist, and chrome lined barrel; the Colt is built to military specs. All the, "Buy a Colt, DD, or BCM" folks will

If the Colt does fail first, you can count on responses to the effect that this was only one example and that under different circumstances... different lube.... different ammo... different ____ the result would be different.
Back to topic:

I think it's an interesting test / comparison.
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