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Old 05-23-2012, 23:46   #51
mjkeat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pleaforwar View Post
You know, I don't want to derail this thread for it's original purpose.

I know several companies that share their background information, if you chose not to that is your choice.

Good luck with your testing.

Cheers,
Dan
It also strikes me as odd. Instructors resistant to improvement and unwilling to share their credentials. I don't own a business or instruct others but it sounds like bad policy. When I look into attending a class I want full disclosure and to know I'm getting the latest and greatest training. Training is time consuming and expensive.

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Old 05-24-2012, 05:14   #52
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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
It also strikes me as odd. Instructors resistant to improvement and unwilling to share their credentials. I don't own a business or instruct others but it sounds like bad policy. When I look into attending a class I want full disclosure and to know I'm getting the latest and greatest training. Training is time consuming and expensive.

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Have you even read this thread or visited our website? We are looking at Slip 2K because it has been vetted by industry professionals and approved for use by reputable entities.

We are not resistant to improvement at all, but we will not change simply to claim improvement. For us to adopt a change, it has to be an actual improvement. Much of the stuff being touted as "the latest and greatest training" is absolute hogwash. In addition, we can't just add things to a course because we want to. For example, when we train DoE contractors working at sites such as the Strategic Petroleum Reserve in Southwest Louisiana, our POI has to be approved by the Louisiana Board of Private Security Examiners or the course could lose its status as an approved course for those contractors to have a security guard license with the rating required by that contract. For those same contractors to work a few miles away at a site across the Sabine River in Texas, they need to take a different course approved by the state of Texas. Our credentials to teach the courses listed on our website are referenced on our website and as I stated earlier, anyone with DoD or DoE contracts who needs training will be provided with appropriate references.

Here is an example of what we will not do, for obvious reasons:

On May 22, 2011 Louisiana Shooters Unlimited will be at 5555 Washington Road training DoE contractors who escort Atomic Weapons as they are transported across the Continental US. Joe, our former "super forces phoney trooper" instructor was on the team that hunted down Pablo Escobar, so you know that you'll be learning from a real professional. If you want to train alongside real pros while learning from real pros, come see us on May 22. Walk-ins and narco-terrorists seeking revenge welcome, along with al-quaeda members who just want to watch.

Lastly, only people who have taken basic level courses from us or instructors we know personally can take our intermediate and advanced level civilian courses, and our courses are booked up through September right now. We don't advertise because we don't have to. Our business is based on our reputation for solid, real, proven training, not internet claims of being globe trotting mercenaries or having neat youtube videos.

If you have questions or ideas regarding our compare/contrast study of rifles, post them here. If you have issues with our business policies regarding the confidentiality of our teams information, contact the BBB, FBI, LSP, or start another thread.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:30   #53
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If you have questions or ideas regarding our compare/contrast study of rifles, post them here. If you have issues with our business policies regarding the confidentiality of our teams information, contact the BBB, FBI, LSP, or start another thread.
I agree.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:45   #54
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This test seems to be about round count to failure between two popular firearms. How is the experience and education of instructors relevant? I would assume that they aren't even the ones that will be firing the rifles.

I can't help but root for the little guy in this test, though. Thanks to the OP for doing this, I am considered the Sport so the results of the testing may help me make my decision.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:51   #55
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I'd go with the Colt, simply for resale value.

There is a reason McDonald's is the biggest fast food franchise, and it's not because their food is the best.

Marketing, marketing, marketing.

I made a bundle off of my Colt AR when I sold it. People want Colts. People who will never fire a shot in anger in their entire lives. People who will never use it anywhere but at the range.

You can always sell your Colt to those people if you need to.
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Old 05-24-2012, 12:16   #56
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Again, this side discussion is taking away from the original intent.

Mr. Courtney, I apologize for adding fuel to the fire.

Cheers,
Dan
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Old 05-24-2012, 16:53   #57
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OP, If you could update this thread that would be nice. thank you.
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Old 05-24-2012, 18:11   #58
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OP, If you could update this thread that would be nice. thank you.
The vendors have received the shipping information from my FFL and shipped the Rifles via Fedex. ETA is May 30, 2012. Once the rifles are in, I will pick them up, clean and lube them, then function fire them. We will order magazines identical to the ones shipped with the rifles so that each rifle has 10 identical magazines.
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Old 05-24-2012, 18:59   #59
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I'd go with the Colt, simply for resale value.

There is a reason McDonald's is the biggest fast food franchise, and it's not because their food is the best.

Marketing, marketing, marketing.
Did you read anything other than the subject line of the thread?

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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
The vendors have received the shipping information from my FFL and shipped the Rifles via Fedex. ETA is May 30, 2012. Once the rifles are in, I will pick them up, clean and lube them, then function fire them. We will order magazines identical to the ones shipped with the rifles so that each rifle has 10 identical magazines.
Good to hear they are on the way.

By the way, my bottle of EWL (arrived today thanks to BCM) lists that it helps prevent corrosion, as well.
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Old 05-24-2012, 20:02   #60
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Have you even read this thread or visited our website? We are looking at Slip 2K because it has been vetted by industry professionals and approved for use by reputable entities.

We are not resistant to improvement at all, but we will not change simply to claim improvement. For us to adopt a change, it has to be an actual improvement. Much of the stuff being touted as "the latest and greatest training" is absolute hogwash. In addition, we can't just add things to a course because we want to. For example, when we train DoE contractors working at sites such as the Strategic Petroleum Reserve in Southwest Louisiana, our POI has to be approved by the Louisiana Board of Private Security Examiners or the course could lose its status as an approved course for those contractors to have a security guard license with the rating required by that contract. For those same contractors to work a few miles away at a site across the Sabine River in Texas, they need to take a different course approved by the state of Texas. Our credentials to teach the courses listed on our website are referenced on our website and as I stated earlier, anyone with DoD or DoE contracts who needs training will be provided with appropriate references.

Here is an example of what we will not do, for obvious reasons:

On May 22, 2011 Louisiana Shooters Unlimited will be at 5555 Washington Road training DoE contractors who escort Atomic Weapons as they are transported across the Continental US. Joe, our former "super forces phoney trooper" instructor was on the team that hunted down Pablo Escobar, so you know that you'll be learning from a real professional. If you want to train alongside real pros while learning from real pros, come see us on May 22. Walk-ins and narco-terrorists seeking revenge welcome, along with al-quaeda members who just want to watch.

Lastly, only people who have taken basic level courses from us or instructors we know personally can take our intermediate and advanced level civilian courses, and our courses are booked up through September right now. We don't advertise because we don't have to. Our business is based on our reputation for solid, real, proven training, not internet claims of being globe trotting mercenaries or having neat youtube videos.

If you have questions or ideas regarding our compare/contrast study of rifles, post them here. If you have issues with our business policies regarding the confidentiality of our teams information, contact the BBB, FBI, LSP, or start another thread.
Looks like this thread has done some good. At first you were saying your guys wouldn't change what they have been doing for 20-40 years now you're trying something new. Thumbs up.

Someone had asked about getting some other information on the instructors and it appeared you blew them off saying you'd have to check and see what could or could not be "released".

The only thing in question was what appeared to be a lack of innovation and an unwillingness to be forthcoming w/ vital information. Sounds like things may not be as they appeared.

I look forward to reports on your test.

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Old 05-24-2012, 20:26   #61
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Again, this side discussion is taking away from the original intent.

Mr. Courtney, I apologize for adding fuel to the fire.

Cheers,
Dan
I accept your apology. I apologize for not having a well thought out way to explain our policies. Ours is a customer service business and we should have well thought out ways to explain policies to potential clients. I will not make this mistake again. Dan, you have made me better at my job and I thank-you.
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Old 05-24-2012, 20:27   #62
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OP, very cool you are posting this test here. Hope you have thick skin for the b ll s hit you are encountering.
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Old 05-24-2012, 20:34   #63
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I accept your apology. I apologize for not having a well thought out way to explain our policies. Ours is a customer service business and we should have well thought out ways to explain policies to potential clients. I will not make this mistake again. Dan, you have made me better at my job and I thank-you.
Glad to see you could admit to it, too.
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Old 05-24-2012, 20:45   #64
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Did you read anything other than the subject line of the thread?



Good to hear they are on the way.

By the way, my bottle of EWL (arrived today thanks to BCM) lists that it helps prevent corrosion, as well.
I sent out a brief survey about the stuff to a couple of dozen instructors who we've worked with recently to see who has experience with it and how it has worked for them. If it gets my team back to only one bottle to work from, they will jump on it, except for one guy who is meticulous about everything. He has 3 different products for every gun he owns, which is why he doesn't teach gun cleaning. He confuses the heck outta people unless he has a program and three flow charts. We'll be able to save the corrosion x for the bullet traps and the mobile 1 for the lawn mowers.

If I get good reports back about the Slip 2000, it'll get one last test before it gets the nod. It'll go on my carry guns for the acid test. If it keeps my stainless kimber and my melonited XDM from rusting while I sweat on them for two weeks, we'll use it.
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Old 05-24-2012, 20:59   #65
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Great idea. Regarding lube, my vote is stick with the Mobil 1. Probably more shooters using that than the purpose built blends. You're in good company. Ken Hackathorn was promoting it in a class back in Dec. I switched to it for all uses over 10 years ago and it's worked great.

I wouldn't be surprised if the two guns will perform nearly identically.
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Old 05-24-2012, 21:02   #66
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I sent out a brief survey about the stuff to a couple of dozen instructors who we've worked with recently to see who has experience with it and how it has worked for them. If it gets my team back to only one bottle to work from, they will jump on it, except for one guy who is meticulous about everything. He has 3 different products for every gun he owns, which is why he doesn't teach gun cleaning. He confuses the heck outta people unless he has a program and three flow charts. We'll be able to save the corrosion x for the bullet traps and the mobile 1 for the lawn mowers.

If I get good reports back about the Slip 2000, it'll get one last test before it gets the nod. It'll go on my carry guns for the acid test. If it keeps my stainless kimber and my melonited XDM from rusting while I sweat on them for two weeks, we'll use it.
Until my BCM order arrived today, I had been using SLIP 2k gun lube and automotive white lithium grease exclusively for lube for several months. The only rust I remember seeing on any of my firearms was a bit of rust and grime in the lettering of my P7's markings. Since the slide is carbon steel, I doubt there's much I can do to totally prevent that in the typical NW Florida humidity. On all of the working bits, though, it's been fantastic.
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Old 05-24-2012, 21:03   #67
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Uh, where can I buy the Slip 2000 EWL in a retail store? WalMart, Academy, Dicks, Bass Pro Shops, Cabelas?
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Old 05-24-2012, 21:07   #68
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Uh, where can I buy the Slip 2000 EWL in a retail store? WalMart, Academy, Dicks, Bass Pro Shops, Cabelas?
I got my bottle of gun lube from a gear shop just off Fort Bragg last summer. I don't know of any chain stores that sell it, but plenty of high end gear/weapon small businesses seem to. Either that, or order directly from SLIP themselves. For your use, that's the route I would go, since they sell large (16oz and 1 gallon) bottles directly through their website.
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Old 05-24-2012, 21:16   #69
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Great idea. Regarding lube, my vote is stick with the Mobil 1. Probably more shooters using that than the purpose built blends. You're in good company. Ken Hackathorn was promoting it in a class back in Dec. I switched to it for all uses over 10 years ago and it's worked great.

I wouldn't be surprised if the two guns will perform nearly identically.
Corrosion X is the only thing I have ever tried that has prevented rust on everything, even flintlocks that use real blackpowder. The added benefit is that trace amounts will not foul powder or primers the way oils do. I was planning to do a wear test on Remington 1100's during duck season to see how corrosion x worked as a lube. Since wear tests have been done with Slip2000, I will do a simpler corrosion test with it first. Anybody know if powder and primers are easily fouled with Slip2000 EWL. It is a critical issue with Flintlocks.
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Old 05-24-2012, 21:19   #70
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Corrosion X is the only thing I have ever tried that has prevented rust on everything, even flintlocks that use real blackpowder. The added benefit is that trace amounts will not foul powder or primers the way oils do. I was planning to do a wear test on Remington 1100's during duck season to see how corrosion x worked as a lube. Since wear tests have been done with Slip2000, I will do a simpler corrosion test with it first. Anybody know if powder and primers are easily fouled with Slip2000 EWL. It is a critical issue with Flintlocks.
No idea with anything black powder, unfortunately.
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Old 05-24-2012, 21:24   #71
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I got my bottle of gun lube from a gear shop just off Fort Bragg last summer. I don't know of any chain stores that sell it, but plenty of high end gear/weapon small businesses seem to. Either that, or order directly from SLIP themselves. For your use, that's the route I would go, since they sell large (16oz and 1 gallon) bottles directly through their website.
If we switch to it, I'll buy a gallon mail order, but students often want to know where to get whatever it is we use, so being familiar with multiple sources is handy. If the stuff really is "all that and a bag of chips", maybe we'll get 1/2 ounce squeeze bottless to give out samples and get a local dealer to stock it. We are always trying ways to pay our blessings forward.
Plus, if students remember us everytime they go shooting, they will be more likely to tell their buddies about us. Little bottles of Slip2000 EWL with a Louisiana Shooters Unlimited label/LGS label. Could be a win, win, win.
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Old 05-24-2012, 21:28   #72
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If we switch to it, I'll buy a gallon mail order, but students often want to know where to get whatever it is we use, so being familiar with multiple sources is handy. If the stuff really is "all that and a bag of chips", maybe we'll get 1/2 ounce squeeze bottless to give out samples and get a local dealer to stock it. We are always trying ways to pay our blessings forward.
Not a bad idea. I'm pretty darn sure that the company that makes SLIP has a dealers program, too, so you might want to check into it. From that point, you could either sell it yourself, or have that info ready to share with any local shops.
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Old 05-29-2012, 14:23   #73
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One rifle is at my dealer. The other should be in tomorrow. We will do the initial function testing and break in with Iron sights, then an accuracy check with a Leupold mark 3 3.5-10 x 50 and several types of ammo. As rentals for our carbine course, students will be able to put Aimpoint Micro's, Bushnell Holosights, or a Leupold VX 3 1.5-5 illuminated on them. Every 4000 rounds or so, we'll put the 3.5-10 back on 'em for another accuracy review.

Suggestions?
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Old 05-29-2012, 17:23   #74
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Slip 2000 is "neat" for sure, but I'm gonna second a mix of mobil 1 and ATF working just fine.

Hopefully this thread will last long enough to see the results of the test.
Been using this since the late 90's. Tried some of the wonderlubes. No problems with most, I like Weaponshield a lot. It smells good. I always go back to Mobile 1 with just enough Dexron III to give a reddish tint, and a little Marvel Mystery oil for a good smell, if you want. It works as good as anything I have ever seen and is indescribably more economical.

BTW, I have a small bottle of Slip2K EWL. While it is as good as my mix, it is no better, and much more expensive.
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Old 05-29-2012, 19:37   #75
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I don't care a whit what you lube the guns with as long as both rifles are cleaned & lubed in similar manners, and at similar intervals.

To the OP, thank you for starting this tread. I appreciate it very much.
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