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Old 05-23-2012, 12:49   #41
Matthew Courtney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
Long term test

Off topic:
I don't own either rifle, nor do I have pistol by either maker.

Colt CS ticked me off over a Defender 45, so I sold it and another Colt 45 (Colt free and will stay that way).

S&W sticks internal locks on handguns; I couldn't buy a S&W rifle without indirectly supporting the IL philosophy.

It would be ironic (to me) if the bolt (or whatever) on the Colt broke first. S&W cut corners and left off the dustcover, forward assist, and chrome lined barrel; the Colt is built to military specs. All the, "Buy a Colt, DD, or BCM" folks will

If the Colt does fail first, you can count on responses to the effect that this was only one example and that under different circumstances... different lube.... different ammo... different ____ the result would be different.
Back to topic:

I think it's an interesting test / comparison.
There is only one valid way to reduce the value of data collected in a scientific test. All someone would have to do is mirror the test and record more data to add to the data set. With a larger data set, one would have a higher level of validity. As we have randomly purchased at retail, the samples fairly represent what consumers are likely to get. Consumer Reports Magazine has been evaluating manufactured goods in this manner for years. If anyone else wants to commit several thousand dollars to doing tests, all the better....
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:53   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy03cls View Post
I highly doubt you will see any difference. Especially if you clean them.
Since we need a hypothesis, let it be to the effect that one will eventually fail, and that they will not both fail in the same manner at the same time.
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:56   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Sorry, should clarify. Was suggesting to shoot guns stock, and order replacements from BCM as stock parts fail. I don't consider BCM to be more reliable than usual, but instead that BCM makes proper milspec parts, and other companies can be sub-par. I wasn't suggesting an outright swap to BCM parts out the gate, just as other bits fail

Sent from the USS Sulaco, while nuking the site from orbit.
Given the service one may expect from Colt, replacing
Colt parts with BCM could be an OK plan. To replace S&W parts with BCM or S&W?
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Old 05-23-2012, 14:19   #44
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
... but trainers who change how they do things each time a fad develops have been outdated here for a long time.
I would hope that your instructors do not consider every development, whether in training methodology or weapons maintenance, to be a fad.

Slip 2000 has been around for a few years now and has been vetted both by instructors and direct action types from various backgrounds, be it law enforcement or military backgrounds.

For clarity's sake, and I do not mean to offend, the vagueness of the background information concerning your instructors makes it somewhat difficult to validate your testing. Your website provides no further insight. For all we know you and the other instructors could be representing Colt or S&W's interests. Now I am not accusing you or your colleagues of anything, I just like to know that the opinions I consider come from a qualified source.

Do you plan on expounding on your collective backgrounds, here or on the site, in the future?

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Old 05-23-2012, 15:31   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pleaforwar View Post
I would hope that your instructors do not consider every development, whether in training methodology or weapons maintenance, to be a fad.

Slip 2000 has been around for a few years now and has been vetted both by instructors and direct action types from various backgrounds, be it law enforcement or military backgrounds.

For clarity's sake, and I do not mean to offend, the vagueness of the background information concerning your instructors makes it somewhat difficult to validate your testing. Your website provides no further insight. For all we know you and the other instructors could be representing Colt or S&W's interests. Now I am not accusing you or your colleagues of anything, I just like to know that the opinions I consider come from a qualified source.

Do you plan on expounding on your collective backgrounds, here or on the site, in the future?

Cheers,
Dan
All the relavent information about our qualifications is on our Website or in this thread, and the testing procedures will be posted here. I do not give out any information about anyone we work with unless I have their explicit consent, so if you have specific questions, ask those questions and I will see what we can tell you. We are not going to be offering opinions, only data. If people ask questions about the data, we will do our best to answer those questions. Since you are an anonymous guy on the web, most of my guys will likely wish to remain the same.

Louisiana Shooters Unlimited is an educational institution which has been providing firearms training since the 256th returned from it's 2004-2005 deployment in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. I co-founded Louisiana Shooters with Col. Daniel McLemore, who commanded the 256th during that deployment. I know most of the firearms instructors in Louisiana and all of our business is dependent upon referrals, so our reputation is the most valuable asset we have. If you are interested in taking a course from us, let us know what type of course and I will provide you appropriate references. We work with Dod contractors, Doe contractors, and are experienced developing POI to meet most contract and operational requirements.
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Old 05-23-2012, 16:38   #46
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You know, I don't want to derail this thread for it's original purpose.

I know several companies that share their background information, if you chose not to that is your choice.

Good luck with your testing.

Cheers,
Dan
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Last edited by pleaforwar; 05-23-2012 at 16:47..
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Old 05-23-2012, 16:49   #47
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I think once you have to replace parts (if the round count is equal between both guns) then the test is over. Most of us have a common interest when comparing the two.........1) Reliability and 2) Failure of parts when both guns are used in the same manner and have equal or close to equal round counts.

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Old 05-23-2012, 17:15   #48
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Old 05-23-2012, 17:54   #49
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keep both of them equally wet.
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Old 05-23-2012, 20:47   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TangoFoxtrot View Post
I happen to own both. So far one does not out perform the other in reliabilty, performance, accuracy or quality.
Thanks for that.
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Old 05-23-2012, 23:46   #51
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Originally Posted by pleaforwar View Post
You know, I don't want to derail this thread for it's original purpose.

I know several companies that share their background information, if you chose not to that is your choice.

Good luck with your testing.

Cheers,
Dan
It also strikes me as odd. Instructors resistant to improvement and unwilling to share their credentials. I don't own a business or instruct others but it sounds like bad policy. When I look into attending a class I want full disclosure and to know I'm getting the latest and greatest training. Training is time consuming and expensive.

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Old 05-24-2012, 05:14   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
It also strikes me as odd. Instructors resistant to improvement and unwilling to share their credentials. I don't own a business or instruct others but it sounds like bad policy. When I look into attending a class I want full disclosure and to know I'm getting the latest and greatest training. Training is time consuming and expensive.

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Have you even read this thread or visited our website? We are looking at Slip 2K because it has been vetted by industry professionals and approved for use by reputable entities.

We are not resistant to improvement at all, but we will not change simply to claim improvement. For us to adopt a change, it has to be an actual improvement. Much of the stuff being touted as "the latest and greatest training" is absolute hogwash. In addition, we can't just add things to a course because we want to. For example, when we train DoE contractors working at sites such as the Strategic Petroleum Reserve in Southwest Louisiana, our POI has to be approved by the Louisiana Board of Private Security Examiners or the course could lose its status as an approved course for those contractors to have a security guard license with the rating required by that contract. For those same contractors to work a few miles away at a site across the Sabine River in Texas, they need to take a different course approved by the state of Texas. Our credentials to teach the courses listed on our website are referenced on our website and as I stated earlier, anyone with DoD or DoE contracts who needs training will be provided with appropriate references.

Here is an example of what we will not do, for obvious reasons:

On May 22, 2011 Louisiana Shooters Unlimited will be at 5555 Washington Road training DoE contractors who escort Atomic Weapons as they are transported across the Continental US. Joe, our former "super forces phoney trooper" instructor was on the team that hunted down Pablo Escobar, so you know that you'll be learning from a real professional. If you want to train alongside real pros while learning from real pros, come see us on May 22. Walk-ins and narco-terrorists seeking revenge welcome, along with al-quaeda members who just want to watch.

Lastly, only people who have taken basic level courses from us or instructors we know personally can take our intermediate and advanced level civilian courses, and our courses are booked up through September right now. We don't advertise because we don't have to. Our business is based on our reputation for solid, real, proven training, not internet claims of being globe trotting mercenaries or having neat youtube videos.

If you have questions or ideas regarding our compare/contrast study of rifles, post them here. If you have issues with our business policies regarding the confidentiality of our teams information, contact the BBB, FBI, LSP, or start another thread.
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Last edited by Matthew Courtney; 05-24-2012 at 06:42..
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:30   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post

If you have questions or ideas regarding our compare/contrast study of rifles, post them here. If you have issues with our business policies regarding the confidentiality of our teams information, contact the BBB, FBI, LSP, or start another thread.
I agree.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:45   #54
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This test seems to be about round count to failure between two popular firearms. How is the experience and education of instructors relevant? I would assume that they aren't even the ones that will be firing the rifles.

I can't help but root for the little guy in this test, though. Thanks to the OP for doing this, I am considered the Sport so the results of the testing may help me make my decision.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:51   #55
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I'd go with the Colt, simply for resale value.

There is a reason McDonald's is the biggest fast food franchise, and it's not because their food is the best.

Marketing, marketing, marketing.

I made a bundle off of my Colt AR when I sold it. People want Colts. People who will never fire a shot in anger in their entire lives. People who will never use it anywhere but at the range.

You can always sell your Colt to those people if you need to.
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Old 05-24-2012, 12:16   #56
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Again, this side discussion is taking away from the original intent.

Mr. Courtney, I apologize for adding fuel to the fire.

Cheers,
Dan
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Last edited by pleaforwar; 05-24-2012 at 12:54..
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Old 05-24-2012, 16:53   #57
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OP, If you could update this thread that would be nice. thank you.
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Old 05-24-2012, 18:11   #58
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Originally Posted by Foxtrotx1 View Post
OP, If you could update this thread that would be nice. thank you.
The vendors have received the shipping information from my FFL and shipped the Rifles via Fedex. ETA is May 30, 2012. Once the rifles are in, I will pick them up, clean and lube them, then function fire them. We will order magazines identical to the ones shipped with the rifles so that each rifle has 10 identical magazines.
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Old 05-24-2012, 18:59   #59
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Originally Posted by series1811 View Post
I'd go with the Colt, simply for resale value.

There is a reason McDonald's is the biggest fast food franchise, and it's not because their food is the best.

Marketing, marketing, marketing.
Did you read anything other than the subject line of the thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
The vendors have received the shipping information from my FFL and shipped the Rifles via Fedex. ETA is May 30, 2012. Once the rifles are in, I will pick them up, clean and lube them, then function fire them. We will order magazines identical to the ones shipped with the rifles so that each rifle has 10 identical magazines.
Good to hear they are on the way.

By the way, my bottle of EWL (arrived today thanks to BCM) lists that it helps prevent corrosion, as well.
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Old 05-24-2012, 20:02   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Have you even read this thread or visited our website? We are looking at Slip 2K because it has been vetted by industry professionals and approved for use by reputable entities.

We are not resistant to improvement at all, but we will not change simply to claim improvement. For us to adopt a change, it has to be an actual improvement. Much of the stuff being touted as "the latest and greatest training" is absolute hogwash. In addition, we can't just add things to a course because we want to. For example, when we train DoE contractors working at sites such as the Strategic Petroleum Reserve in Southwest Louisiana, our POI has to be approved by the Louisiana Board of Private Security Examiners or the course could lose its status as an approved course for those contractors to have a security guard license with the rating required by that contract. For those same contractors to work a few miles away at a site across the Sabine River in Texas, they need to take a different course approved by the state of Texas. Our credentials to teach the courses listed on our website are referenced on our website and as I stated earlier, anyone with DoD or DoE contracts who needs training will be provided with appropriate references.

Here is an example of what we will not do, for obvious reasons:

On May 22, 2011 Louisiana Shooters Unlimited will be at 5555 Washington Road training DoE contractors who escort Atomic Weapons as they are transported across the Continental US. Joe, our former "super forces phoney trooper" instructor was on the team that hunted down Pablo Escobar, so you know that you'll be learning from a real professional. If you want to train alongside real pros while learning from real pros, come see us on May 22. Walk-ins and narco-terrorists seeking revenge welcome, along with al-quaeda members who just want to watch.

Lastly, only people who have taken basic level courses from us or instructors we know personally can take our intermediate and advanced level civilian courses, and our courses are booked up through September right now. We don't advertise because we don't have to. Our business is based on our reputation for solid, real, proven training, not internet claims of being globe trotting mercenaries or having neat youtube videos.

If you have questions or ideas regarding our compare/contrast study of rifles, post them here. If you have issues with our business policies regarding the confidentiality of our teams information, contact the BBB, FBI, LSP, or start another thread.
Looks like this thread has done some good. At first you were saying your guys wouldn't change what they have been doing for 20-40 years now you're trying something new. Thumbs up.

Someone had asked about getting some other information on the instructors and it appeared you blew them off saying you'd have to check and see what could or could not be "released".

The only thing in question was what appeared to be a lack of innovation and an unwillingness to be forthcoming w/ vital information. Sounds like things may not be as they appeared.

I look forward to reports on your test.

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