GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-02-2012, 12:22   #101
vram74
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by fowler View Post
Larry Vickers likes the ballistol oil to as do many others. What doe's WW2 and the Germans have to do with there products Walther,SIG,HK,BMW,Mercedes. As with all you who drive Japanese cars and trucks???? Its a fine lube thats keeps the crude from jamming up your AR .
I'm currently using Ballistol and thinking about switching to Weapon Shield after reading that m4carbine thread. Ballistol sucks at rust prevention apparently. Larry Vickers's opinion, as knowledgeable and experienced as he may be, doesn't mean crap to me after reading his comment about XD's being "bubba guns". He's just another **** talking salesman AFAIC.

Last edited by vram74; 06-02-2012 at 12:26..
vram74 is offline  
Old 06-02-2012, 14:26   #102
fowler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: ohio
Posts: 3,830
I like the Ballistol and have been using it 40 years with no rust. I,m not a fan of Vickers or the other talking head Mass whats his name?
fowler is offline  
Old 06-02-2012, 17:42   #103
Matthew Courtney
CLM Number 285
Instructor #298
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lake Charles
Posts: 5,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD357 View Post
Granted it's no PRJ publication, it's quite a bit more substantial than anything posted in this thread.

Kind of like the OP's test between the two ARs.
Our test will be repeatable, therefore valid. Subsequent testing will increase the level of validity, but a lack of repetition in no way invalidates test results. Having No way to repeat a test invalidates results because theories which cannot be tested again and again are invalid on their face.
__________________
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for. Retreat in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.

www.louisianashooters.com
Matthew Courtney is offline  
Old 06-02-2012, 17:51   #104
Matthew Courtney
CLM Number 285
Instructor #298
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lake Charles
Posts: 5,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by fowler View Post
I like the Ballistol and have been using it 40 years with no rust. I,m not a fan of Vickers or the other talking head Mass whats his name?
I know little of Vickers except that he is a well respected trainer. Massad Ayoob on the other hand did much of the seminal work in bringing self-defense mindset to the masses in the U.S. Mas is talking about things he truly knows about. He is also a member of Glocktalk who tries his best to help other members here. Calling Mas a talking head is offensive and insulting to a man who has helped make America a safer place to live.
__________________
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for. Retreat in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.

www.louisianashooters.com
Matthew Courtney is offline  
Old 06-02-2012, 18:18   #105
WoodenPlank
Who?
 
WoodenPlank's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NW Florida
Posts: 7,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
I know little of Vickers except that he is a well respected trainer. Massad Ayoob on the other hand did much of the seminal work in bringing self-defense mindset to the masses in the U.S. Mas is talking about things he truly knows about. He is also a member of Glocktalk who tries his best to help other members here. Calling Mas a talking head is offensive and insulting to a man who has helped make America a safer place to live.
Completely agreed.

Vickers served as a firearms instructor for a certain unmentioned US Army special operations unit while on active duty, and was part of an assault element for the same unit before he became an instructor. He was also instrumental in HK developing the HK416. When it comes to combat weapons, applications, and tactics, there aren't many trainers out there that have more experience or know-how in a military mindset or environment.
__________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
WoodenPlank is offline  
Old 06-02-2012, 18:27   #106
bmoore
Senior Member
 
bmoore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Under a regime.
Posts: 4,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by fowler View Post
I like the Ballistol and have been using it 40 years with no rust. I,m not a fan of Vickers or the other talking head Mass whats his name?
You should probably post less.
__________________
RIP Okie
bmoore is offline  
Old 06-02-2012, 18:36   #107
Matthew Courtney
CLM Number 285
Instructor #298
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lake Charles
Posts: 5,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Completely agreed.

Vickers served as a firearms instructor for a certain unmentioned US Army special operations unit while on active duty, and was part of an assault element for the same unit before he became an instructor. He was also instrumental in HK developing the HK416. When it comes to combat weapons, applications, and tactics, there aren't many trainers out there that have more experience or know-how in a military mindset or environment.
So in one two sentence post, someone manages to agree with folks in the first sentence, then malign well-respected gentlemen on both the civilian and military sides of the shooting fraternity in the next. In conclusion, I agree with Bmoore.
__________________
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for. Retreat in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.

www.louisianashooters.com
Matthew Courtney is offline  
Old 06-02-2012, 19:48   #108
Durden
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
I know little of Vickers except that he is a well respected trainer. Massad Ayoob on the other hand did much of the seminal work in bringing self-defense mindset to the masses in the U.S. Mas is talking about things he truly knows about. He is also a member of Glocktalk who tries his best to help other members here. Calling Mas a talking head is offensive and insulting to a man who has helped make America a safer place to live.
+1 and +1 again.

Ayoob has been at the forefront of the RKBA movement, and also in fighting back against the lame ass stream media's attempts to cast the right, let alone the desire, to own and train with firearms, as some sort of signal of character deficit.

Ayoob vehemently defended the right to keep and bear arms for decades now, even way back when it wasn't "the cool thing to do." He also hammered home the correct fact that the nearly all those owning and utilizing firearms for recreation, sport and self defense were responsible, law-abiding and moral people, who formed the cornerstone of deeply embedded American core belief that the 2nd Amendment is sacrosanct, and the RIGHTS of civilians to own firearms shall not be infringed upon by government.
Durden is offline  
Old 06-02-2012, 22:27   #109
MD357
Senior Member
 
MD357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Our test will be repeatable, therefore valid. Subsequent testing will increase the level of validity, but a lack of repetition in no way invalidates test results. Having No way to repeat a test invalidates results because theories which cannot be tested again and again are invalid on their face.
I'm not the one that will require you to repeat the results as we are on a gun forum and my standards aren't that high. I was merely stating that in reference to that particular test and your test, while neither completely up to scientific standards, they will be quite a bit more info than most relay.

However, on the lack of repetition statement....... lack of repetition won't cut it in the real world in terms of say.... biomedical science. As it doesn't invalidate the results, it won't confirm them either.

Last edited by MD357; 06-02-2012 at 22:29..
MD357 is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 04:30   #110
fowler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: ohio
Posts: 3,830
Everybody has the right to agree or not. This is America believe what you want to and follow the talking heads if thats what you like.
fowler is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 08:35   #111
Matthew Courtney
CLM Number 285
Instructor #298
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lake Charles
Posts: 5,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by fowler View Post
Everybody has the right to agree or not. This is America believe what you want to and follow the talking heads if thats what you like.
It is obvious that you know neither what a talking head is nor what actually constitutes a meaningful contribution to a community, so if you wish to continue spewing forth vile and ignorant animosity, please start a thread for it.
__________________
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for. Retreat in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.

www.louisianashooters.com
Matthew Courtney is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 08:47   #112
Matthew Courtney
CLM Number 285
Instructor #298
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lake Charles
Posts: 5,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD357 View Post
I'm not the one that will require you to repeat the results as we are on a gun forum and my standards aren't that high. I was merely stating that in reference to that particular test and your test, while neither completely up to scientific standards, they will be quite a bit more info than most relay.

However, on the lack of repetition statement....... lack of repetition won't cut it in the real world in terms of say.... biomedical science. As it doesn't invalidate the results, it won't confirm them either.
Our test will be up to scientific standards. We are consulting with a scientist at The Air Force Academy to make sure of that. Anyone wishing to confirm or refute the data we report will have enough information to run the test again. We also consult regularly with A biomedical engineer who help us refine traing drills so that our drills are effective in training non-traditional shooters.

You can read more about those two scientists here:

http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/pi.html
__________________
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for. Retreat in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.

www.louisianashooters.com
Matthew Courtney is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 09:10   #113
Airhasz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Bad Axe
Posts: 535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
It is obvious that you know neither what a talking head is nor what actually constitutes a meaningful contribution to a community, so if you wish to continue spewing forth vile and ignorant animosity, please start a thread for it.
Thanks Matt
Airhasz is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 10:27   #114
K. Foster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mo.
Posts: 2,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Our test will be up to scientific standards. We are consulting with a scientist at The Air Force Academy to make sure of that.
What scientific standards only require a test sample size of one each?? I think you are getting a little carried away. Shoot the guns, record the data and, if you want, report back.
__________________
An amateur trains until he gets it right, a professional trains until he can't get it wrong.
K. Foster is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 10:31   #115
MD357
Senior Member
 
MD357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Our test will be up to scientific standards. We are consulting with a scientist at The Air Force Academy to make sure of that.
Excellent, post your full peer-reviewed publication when it is finished since you insist on your study being up to par with industry standards. I'd LOVE to read it.
MD357 is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 11:11   #116
MD357
Senior Member
 
MD357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by K. Foster View Post
What scientific standards only require a test sample size of one each?? I think you are getting a little carried away. Shoot the guns, record the data and, if you want, report back.
Exactly, any acredited study would have more than one example due to redundancy, how does one know that one gun was not up to their respective maker's standards?

I'm with you though, just shoot the guns and report back. This is GT not the NEJM.
MD357 is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 11:17   #117
Matthew Courtney
CLM Number 285
Instructor #298
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lake Charles
Posts: 5,848
Deleted duplicate
__________________
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for. Retreat in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.

www.louisianashooters.com

Last edited by Matthew Courtney; 06-03-2012 at 11:24.. Reason: Double tap
Matthew Courtney is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 11:21   #118
Matthew Courtney
CLM Number 285
Instructor #298
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lake Charles
Posts: 5,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by K. Foster View Post
What scientific standards only require a test sample size of one each?? I think you are getting a little carried away. Shoot the guns, record the data and, if you want, report back.
The scientific standards used in the Manhattan Project Only required the implosion type plutonium weapon dropped on Nagasaki to be tested one time. The gun type uranium weapon that was dropped on Hiroshima was tested zero times before being used. If the most important weapons test in the history of man can result in data valid enough to make decisions with after one test, a single elementary comparison of two rifles can produce data valid enough for most comparable applications. Anyone who wishes more valid data for their purpose is free to do more testing. As every journey begins with a single step, all scientific testing begins with a singe repeatable test.
__________________
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for. Retreat in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.

www.louisianashooters.com

Last edited by Matthew Courtney; 06-03-2012 at 11:22..
Matthew Courtney is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 11:25   #119
MD357
Senior Member
 
MD357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,886
Quote:
The scientific standards used in the Manhattan Project Only required the implosion type plutonium weapon dropped on Nagasaki to be tested one time. If the most important weapons test in the history of man can result in data valid enough to make decisions with after one test,
Good lord man, you're in over your head here and your comments are just making worse. Just let it go.

Several.... and I MEAN several experienments over many years, and different sites were conducted leading up to that type of weapon. To think that they just put together a bomb and they had one "sample" is beyond ignorant of what that project entailed. Even someone with the most superficial knowledge of that project knows this.
MD357 is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 11:28   #120
bullittmcqueen
Gunfighter
 
bullittmcqueen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Augusta, GA
Posts: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by fowler View Post
Everybody has the right to agree or not. This is America believe what you want to and follow the talking heads if thats what you like.
Read more, post less, and go out and shoot different things and form your own opinion on what works for you. Take a class by Larry Vickers, I guarantee you'll learn something.
__________________
Check my channel on YouTube for shooting and gear reviews!!
http://www.youtube.com/user/bullittmcqueen
http://www.youtube.com/user/StrongsideTactical
bullittmcqueen is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 11:29   #121
Matthew Courtney
CLM Number 285
Instructor #298
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lake Charles
Posts: 5,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD357 View Post
Exactly, any acredited study would have more than one example due to redundancy, how does one know that one gun was not up to their respective maker's standards?

I'm with you though, just shoot the guns and report back. This is GT not the NEJM.
We know by virtue of the fact that the rifles were purchased new through retail channels that the rifles were up to whatever standards their respective makers use to evaluate quality before shipping rifles intended for civilian sale.
__________________
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for. Retreat in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.

www.louisianashooters.com
Matthew Courtney is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 11:38   #122
Matthew Courtney
CLM Number 285
Instructor #298
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lake Charles
Posts: 5,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD357 View Post
Good lord man, you're in over your head here and your comments are just making worse. Just let it go.

Several.... and I MEAN several experienments over many years, and different sites were conducted leading up to that type of weapon. To think that they just put together a bomb and they had one "sample" is beyond ignorant of what that project entailed. Even someone with the most superficial knowledge of that project knows this.
Prior tests on all of the rifles components have been done thousands of times. In theory, predictions could be made as to the outcome of a single test of the finished products, but testing the finished products is the only way we know for sure how the products will perform.

Consumer reports, the most well respected consumer product testing entity in the United States, uses the exact same testing process that we will be using. If you want to buy some additional rifles for us to test, pm me and we will make arrangements to test as many as you wish.
__________________
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for. Retreat in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.

www.louisianashooters.com
Matthew Courtney is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 11:48   #123
fowler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: ohio
Posts: 3,830
Mr.Larry Vickers is for real and has seen first hand knowledge of combat weapons. He is not like the Gun Rag whores who write for dollars&perks. Kudo,s to Mr Vickers even if we don,t agree to all his reason,s for one firearm to the other. I agree with him on the Ballistol oil. It works and doe,s not cause cancer like most petrol oil and car oils. Back to the Colt- VS-SW carbines. Both are good.

Last edited by fowler; 06-03-2012 at 15:51..
fowler is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 13:26   #124
MD357
Senior Member
 
MD357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
We know by virtue of the fact that the rifles were purchased new through retail channels that the rifles were up to whatever standards their respective makers use to evaluate quality before shipping rifles intended for civilian sale.
Doesn't matter, QC errors can and do slip by. The only way to circumvent this is to have multiple samples..... IF we were being truly scientific of course. Again, I'm not requiring multple samples... but don't say this "test" is up the standards held by many scientific communities.

Quote:
Prior tests on all of the rifles components have been done thousands of times. In theory, predictions could be made as to the outcome of a single test of the finished products, but testing the finished products is the only way we know for sure how the products will perform.
Really? of these particular rifles? By all means post up these previous tests of THESE particular rifles.

Quote:
Consumer reports, the most well respected consumer product testing entity in the United States, uses the exact same testing process that we will be using.
This speaks volumes as to your standards and as to why you don't understand what I'm saying. In a nutshell, Consumer Reports is a remedial science at best. Hit up your Ph.D friends and get them to explain the differences between what they do and what consumer reports does and get back to me.

Quote:
If you want to buy some additional rifles for us to test, pm me and we will make arrangements to test as many as you wish.
See above where I've said multiple times I'm not requiring you to test multiple guns, besides the burden of proof is upon yourself if you insist this test be up to the standards of higher learning.
MD357 is offline  
Old 06-03-2012, 13:52   #125
G36's Rule
Senior Member
 
G36's Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spring, TX.
Posts: 14,878
Holy carp, this thread is all over the place.

Anyway, good luck on your testing and I hope it can be caught here through completion or at least until one rifle fails in a serious manner.

I agree with accuracy testing being done with high power scope off a solid bench. I would also suggest using 10 shot groups as that will add to the overall group size and show which, if either, is effected more by heat.
G36's Rule is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 00:54.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 813
218 Members
595 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42