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Old 06-02-2012, 12:22   #101
vram74
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Larry Vickers likes the ballistol oil to as do many others. What doe's WW2 and the Germans have to do with there products Walther,SIG,HK,BMW,Mercedes. As with all you who drive Japanese cars and trucks???? Its a fine lube thats keeps the crude from jamming up your AR .
I'm currently using Ballistol and thinking about switching to Weapon Shield after reading that m4carbine thread. Ballistol sucks at rust prevention apparently. Larry Vickers's opinion, as knowledgeable and experienced as he may be, doesn't mean crap to me after reading his comment about XD's being "bubba guns". He's just another **** talking salesman AFAIC.

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Old 06-02-2012, 14:26   #102
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I like the Ballistol and have been using it 40 years with no rust. I,m not a fan of Vickers or the other talking head Mass whats his name?
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Old 06-02-2012, 17:42   #103
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Granted it's no PRJ publication, it's quite a bit more substantial than anything posted in this thread.

Kind of like the OP's test between the two ARs.
Our test will be repeatable, therefore valid. Subsequent testing will increase the level of validity, but a lack of repetition in no way invalidates test results. Having No way to repeat a test invalidates results because theories which cannot be tested again and again are invalid on their face.
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Old 06-02-2012, 17:51   #104
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I like the Ballistol and have been using it 40 years with no rust. I,m not a fan of Vickers or the other talking head Mass whats his name?
I know little of Vickers except that he is a well respected trainer. Massad Ayoob on the other hand did much of the seminal work in bringing self-defense mindset to the masses in the U.S. Mas is talking about things he truly knows about. He is also a member of Glocktalk who tries his best to help other members here. Calling Mas a talking head is offensive and insulting to a man who has helped make America a safer place to live.
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Old 06-02-2012, 18:18   #105
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I know little of Vickers except that he is a well respected trainer. Massad Ayoob on the other hand did much of the seminal work in bringing self-defense mindset to the masses in the U.S. Mas is talking about things he truly knows about. He is also a member of Glocktalk who tries his best to help other members here. Calling Mas a talking head is offensive and insulting to a man who has helped make America a safer place to live.
Completely agreed.

Vickers served as a firearms instructor for a certain unmentioned US Army special operations unit while on active duty, and was part of an assault element for the same unit before he became an instructor. He was also instrumental in HK developing the HK416. When it comes to combat weapons, applications, and tactics, there aren't many trainers out there that have more experience or know-how in a military mindset or environment.
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Old 06-02-2012, 18:27   #106
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I like the Ballistol and have been using it 40 years with no rust. I,m not a fan of Vickers or the other talking head Mass whats his name?
You should probably post less.
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Old 06-02-2012, 18:36   #107
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Completely agreed.

Vickers served as a firearms instructor for a certain unmentioned US Army special operations unit while on active duty, and was part of an assault element for the same unit before he became an instructor. He was also instrumental in HK developing the HK416. When it comes to combat weapons, applications, and tactics, there aren't many trainers out there that have more experience or know-how in a military mindset or environment.
So in one two sentence post, someone manages to agree with folks in the first sentence, then malign well-respected gentlemen on both the civilian and military sides of the shooting fraternity in the next. In conclusion, I agree with Bmoore.
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Old 06-02-2012, 19:48   #108
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I know little of Vickers except that he is a well respected trainer. Massad Ayoob on the other hand did much of the seminal work in bringing self-defense mindset to the masses in the U.S. Mas is talking about things he truly knows about. He is also a member of Glocktalk who tries his best to help other members here. Calling Mas a talking head is offensive and insulting to a man who has helped make America a safer place to live.
+1 and +1 again.

Ayoob has been at the forefront of the RKBA movement, and also in fighting back against the lame ass stream media's attempts to cast the right, let alone the desire, to own and train with firearms, as some sort of signal of character deficit.

Ayoob vehemently defended the right to keep and bear arms for decades now, even way back when it wasn't "the cool thing to do." He also hammered home the correct fact that the nearly all those owning and utilizing firearms for recreation, sport and self defense were responsible, law-abiding and moral people, who formed the cornerstone of deeply embedded American core belief that the 2nd Amendment is sacrosanct, and the RIGHTS of civilians to own firearms shall not be infringed upon by government.
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Old 06-02-2012, 22:27   #109
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Our test will be repeatable, therefore valid. Subsequent testing will increase the level of validity, but a lack of repetition in no way invalidates test results. Having No way to repeat a test invalidates results because theories which cannot be tested again and again are invalid on their face.
I'm not the one that will require you to repeat the results as we are on a gun forum and my standards aren't that high. I was merely stating that in reference to that particular test and your test, while neither completely up to scientific standards, they will be quite a bit more info than most relay.

However, on the lack of repetition statement....... lack of repetition won't cut it in the real world in terms of say.... biomedical science. As it doesn't invalidate the results, it won't confirm them either.

Last edited by MD357; 06-02-2012 at 22:29..
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Old 06-03-2012, 04:30   #110
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Everybody has the right to agree or not. This is America believe what you want to and follow the talking heads if thats what you like.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:35   #111
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Everybody has the right to agree or not. This is America believe what you want to and follow the talking heads if thats what you like.
It is obvious that you know neither what a talking head is nor what actually constitutes a meaningful contribution to a community, so if you wish to continue spewing forth vile and ignorant animosity, please start a thread for it.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:47   #112
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I'm not the one that will require you to repeat the results as we are on a gun forum and my standards aren't that high. I was merely stating that in reference to that particular test and your test, while neither completely up to scientific standards, they will be quite a bit more info than most relay.

However, on the lack of repetition statement....... lack of repetition won't cut it in the real world in terms of say.... biomedical science. As it doesn't invalidate the results, it won't confirm them either.
Our test will be up to scientific standards. We are consulting with a scientist at The Air Force Academy to make sure of that. Anyone wishing to confirm or refute the data we report will have enough information to run the test again. We also consult regularly with A biomedical engineer who help us refine traing drills so that our drills are effective in training non-traditional shooters.

You can read more about those two scientists here:

http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/pi.html
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Old 06-03-2012, 09:10   #113
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It is obvious that you know neither what a talking head is nor what actually constitutes a meaningful contribution to a community, so if you wish to continue spewing forth vile and ignorant animosity, please start a thread for it.
Thanks Matt
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Old 06-03-2012, 10:27   #114
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Our test will be up to scientific standards. We are consulting with a scientist at The Air Force Academy to make sure of that.
What scientific standards only require a test sample size of one each?? I think you are getting a little carried away. Shoot the guns, record the data and, if you want, report back.
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Old 06-03-2012, 10:31   #115
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Our test will be up to scientific standards. We are consulting with a scientist at The Air Force Academy to make sure of that.
Excellent, post your full peer-reviewed publication when it is finished since you insist on your study being up to par with industry standards. I'd LOVE to read it.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:11   #116
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What scientific standards only require a test sample size of one each?? I think you are getting a little carried away. Shoot the guns, record the data and, if you want, report back.
Exactly, any acredited study would have more than one example due to redundancy, how does one know that one gun was not up to their respective maker's standards?

I'm with you though, just shoot the guns and report back. This is GT not the NEJM.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:17   #117
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:21   #118
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What scientific standards only require a test sample size of one each?? I think you are getting a little carried away. Shoot the guns, record the data and, if you want, report back.
The scientific standards used in the Manhattan Project Only required the implosion type plutonium weapon dropped on Nagasaki to be tested one time. The gun type uranium weapon that was dropped on Hiroshima was tested zero times before being used. If the most important weapons test in the history of man can result in data valid enough to make decisions with after one test, a single elementary comparison of two rifles can produce data valid enough for most comparable applications. Anyone who wishes more valid data for their purpose is free to do more testing. As every journey begins with a single step, all scientific testing begins with a singe repeatable test.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:25   #119
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The scientific standards used in the Manhattan Project Only required the implosion type plutonium weapon dropped on Nagasaki to be tested one time. If the most important weapons test in the history of man can result in data valid enough to make decisions with after one test,
Good lord man, you're in over your head here and your comments are just making worse. Just let it go.

Several.... and I MEAN several experienments over many years, and different sites were conducted leading up to that type of weapon. To think that they just put together a bomb and they had one "sample" is beyond ignorant of what that project entailed. Even someone with the most superficial knowledge of that project knows this.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:28   #120
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Everybody has the right to agree or not. This is America believe what you want to and follow the talking heads if thats what you like.
Read more, post less, and go out and shoot different things and form your own opinion on what works for you. Take a class by Larry Vickers, I guarantee you'll learn something.
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