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Old 06-23-2012, 06:44   #151
cyphertext
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Originally Posted by glocksterr View Post
hee, hee,

anybody want to bet a dolla' on...

looks like wolf is GTG in the smith. too bad i dont own a sport or shoot wolf.

I am surprised at some of those numbers....especially the Black Hills...I thought that would do better.

Not bad though, considering he is shooting with Magpul BUS rear sight. I'm not a fan of those.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:50   #152
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I don't know about using only the POS Colt mags with the Colt while the SW gets the good PMags.

You should use both mags in both carbines.
No, He is right to use the same items that come in the box for head to head. If the Colt mags are POS, which I don't know so have no opinion, then the S&W should not be gigged for magazine issues that S&W had nothing to do with.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:07   #153
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Colt- 3/32 inch creep, 2/32 overtravel, 5/32 reset
Sport- 2/32 creep, 3/32 overtravel, 5/32 reset

i like the smith trigger. never shot a colt but on paper it looks close.

feel is subjective but what are your conclusions?
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:09   #154
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I don't know about using only the POS Colt mags with the Colt while the SW gets the good PMags.

You should use both mags in both carbines.
If the Colt mags are an issue, it would beg the question: why are they being shipped with Colt carbines? In any event, if a stoppage looks to be mag related, that mag will be tried on a Bushmaster. If stoppages occur with a suspect mag and the Bushmaster, the mag will be pulled as damaged and the mag data recorded as such. When a carbine goes below 7 working mags, more mags will be purchased because our poi calls for 7 magazines.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:16   #155
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I am surprised at some of those numbers....especially the Black Hills...I thought that would do better.

Not bad though, considering he is shooting with Magpul BUS rear sight. I'm not a fan of those.
The accuracy testing is being done with a Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x 50 in a Burris mount. We plan to slap the Leupold on the Carbines several times to measure accuracy at several points along the throat erosion process.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:22   #156
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The accuracy testing is being done with a Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x 50 in a Burris mount. We plan to slap the Leupold on the Carbines several times to measure accuracy at several points along the throat erosion process.
Sorry Matthew, there have been so many posts in this thread, I forgot about that....

Now I am really surprised on those numbers! Are the rifles locked down in a sled, or is this shooting from a bench with sandbags?
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:23   #157
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i like the smith trigger. never shot a colt but on paper it looks close.

feel is subjective but what are your conclusions?
The triggers feel different, more so that the small weight of pull and creep figures reflect. Since we are here to report data, not make subjective conclusions, we have been trying to find a way to measure what we are feeling during the trigger squeeze. It may be a moot point, because the triggers seem to feel more similar as they get broken in. We plan to take fresh measurements after 1200 rounds.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:32   #158
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The accuracy testing is being done with a Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x 50 in a Burris mount. We plan to slap the Leupold on the Carbines several times to measure accuracy at several points along the throat erosion process.

sport owners seem to have an excuse/answer for everything.

we will see...

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Old 06-23-2012, 07:34   #159
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The triggers feel different, more so that the small weight of pull and creep figures reflect. Since we are here to report data, not make subjective conclusions, we have been trying to find a way to measure what we are feeling during the trigger squeeze. It may be a moot point, because the triggers seem to feel more similar as they get broken in. We plan to take fresh measurements after 1200 rounds.

i had a feeling there was more to it than the numbers. we may find that to be the case many times in the shootout.

many times subjective feel is valuable if the sample size is large enough.

i commend your testing procedure and thank you for your efforts.

may the best rifle win!


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Old 06-23-2012, 07:41   #160
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Now I am really surprised on those numbers! Are the rifles locked down in a sled, or is this shooting from a bench with sandbags?
would it matter that much if both where tested in the same manner and was repeatable?
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:42   #161
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Was thinking about getting a sport so I'm very interested in this test thanks for doing it.

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Old 06-23-2012, 07:44   #162
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would it matter that much if both where tested in the same manner and was repeatable?
Maybe not, but it's always a good idea to eliminate as many variables as possible.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:50   #163
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Sorry Matthew, there have been so many posts in this thread, I forgot about that....

Now I am really surprised on those numbers! Are the rifles locked down in a sled, or is this shooting from a bench with sandbags?
We are shooting from a bench with a Caldwell adjustable rest under the handguard and sandbags under the buttstock. The Blackhills group had 3 shots in a .75 inch group and 2 shots off to the left through one hole that resembeled a figure 8. Given that these barrels are not free floated, my guess is that the pressure on the handguard changed during the 5 shot string. The degree to which normal pressure changes on the handguard affects point of impact is an aspect of this evaluation. Remember, we are not evaluating the ammo to see which ammo is more accurate, we are using a sample of available ammo to evaluate the rifles. If I were going to do an ammo eval, I would use free floated rifles to eliminate the variable of changing pressures and forces against the barrel.
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:01   #164
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would it matter that much if both where tested in the same manner and was repeatable?
It would make a difference because the sled doesn't suffer from fatigue, anticipate recoil, etc. And if you want to be truly scientific, you would have to eliminate all variables. That would mean shooting indoors where you can control humidity, temperature, wind, etc. You can't shoot outside on two different days and compare those two samples against each other. Too many variables to be a meaningful comparison.

However, I was asking out of curiosity though more than anything though. I was surprised by the numbers is all I am saying, especially with the premium ammo. With the targets that I have seen posted from other shooters, I expected tighter groupings. I wouldn't expect Wolf to outshoot Black Hills! Guess I can save my money.

Matthew, don't take this as a knock against your test. I'm more interested in the life expectancy of the parts than anything. Look forward to seeing the results.
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:05   #165
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Maybe not, but it's always a good idea to eliminate as many variables as possible.
You are absolutly right! Are you aware of a sled which is set up in such a way that rifles with standard capacity mags can be strapped into them? The Caldwell leadsleds, along with several others we have, cannot be used with AR style rifles and standard magazines.
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:09   #166
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Being a pony owner, I will get a kick if the sport out preforms the colt their will be a lot of excuses from many loyal colt owners...
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:11   #167
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You are absolutly right! Are you aware of a sled which is set up in such a way that rifles with standard capacity mags can be strapped into them? The Caldwell leadsleds, along with several others we have, cannot be used with AR style rifles and standard magazines.

Not offhand, as I don't really use rests. However, for the sake of simplicity, I wouldn't see an issue with using a short mag in both rifles only during accuracy testing. Since you're firing relatively short strings in that case, mag reliability won't really be an issue, and can be eliminated as a variable.
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:12   #168
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It would make a difference because the sled doesn't suffer from fatigue, anticipate recoil, etc. And if you want to be truly scientific, you would have to eliminate all variables. That would mean shooting indoors where you can control humidity, temperature, wind, etc. You can't shoot outside on two different days and compare those two samples against each other. Too many variables to be a meaningful comparison.

However, I was asking out of curiosity though more than anything though. I was surprised by the numbers is all I am saying, especially with the premium ammo. With the targets that I have seen posted from other shooters, I expected tighter groupings. I wouldn't expect Wolf to outshoot Black Hills! Guess I can save my money.

Matthew, don't take this as a knock against your test. I'm more interested in the life expectancy of the parts than anything. Look forward to seeing the results.
If you check those targets posted by other shooters, I expect you would see two things.

1. Many of those shooters had free floated barrels.
2. Many of those shooters did not report 100% of their data.
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:21   #169
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We are shooting from a bench with a Caldwell adjustable rest under the handguard and sandbags under the buttstock. The Blackhills group had 3 shots in a .75 inch group and 2 shots off to the left through one hole that resembeled a figure 8. Given that these barrels are not free floated, my guess is that the pressure on the handguard changed during the 5 shot string. The degree to which normal pressure changes on the handguard affects point of impact is an aspect of this evaluation. Remember, we are not evaluating the ammo to see which ammo is more accurate, we are using a sample of available ammo to evaluate the rifles. If I were going to do an ammo eval, I would use free floated rifles to eliminate the variable of changing pressures and forces against the barrel.
So, am I correct in saying then that this first set of data points, the sight in, is not even meant to be compared between rifles? It is just a beginning data point set, so that you have something to measure against as the test progresses? For example, if in 4000 rounds, the groups open up to 3 inches, then you know that the barrel is no bueno?
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Old 06-23-2012, 09:10   #170
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So, am I correct in saying then that this first set of data points, the sight in, is not even meant to be compared between rifles? It is just a beginning data point set, so that you have something to measure against as the test progresses? For example, if in 4000 rounds, the groups open up to 3 inches, then you know that the barrel is no bueno?
That is a fair assessment. Some folks will invariably pick data along the way to support their beliefs, and that's ok for them, I guess. We do not anticipate evaluating the data until we have about 4800-5000 rounds through each carbine. At that point, we may seek to have the study published in a peer reviewed journal. Drs. Michael and Amy Courtney of the Ballistics Testing Group think that the study should be published. We have been co-operating with BTG for years on their research. They primarily test arms and armor for the military, and do BC research. Michael teaches at Air Force in Colorado Springs. Most of the sea level testing they do is conducted on my range during the Summer, so BTG is here now helping us set up our test. Full disclosure: Michael is my twin brother and today is our 45th birthday.
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Old 06-23-2012, 09:21   #171
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It would make a difference because the sled doesn't suffer from fatigue, anticipate recoil, etc. And if you want to be truly scientific, you would have to eliminate all variables. That would mean shooting indoors where you can control humidity, temperature, wind, etc. You can't shoot outside on two different days and compare those two samples against each other. Too many variables to be a meaningful comparison.

However, I was asking out of curiosity though more than anything though. I was surprised by the numbers is all I am saying, especially with the premium ammo. With the targets that I have seen posted from other shooters, I expected tighter groupings. I wouldn't expect Wolf to outshoot Black Hills! Guess I can save my money.

Matthew, don't take this as a knock against your test. I'm more interested in the life expectancy of the parts than anything. Look forward to seeing the results.
This sounds awfully familiar.

Last edited by MD357; 06-23-2012 at 09:33..
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Old 06-23-2012, 09:43   #172
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That is a fair assessment. Some folks will invariably pick data along the way to support their beliefs, and that's ok for them, I guess. We do not anticipate evaluating the data until we have about 4800-5000 rounds through each carbine. At that point, we may seek to have the study published in a peer reviewed journal. Drs. Michael and Amy Courtney of the Ballistics Testing Group think that the study should be published. We have been co-operating with BTG for years on their research. They primarily test arms and armor for the military, and do BC research. Michael teaches at Air Force in Colorado Springs. Most of the sea level testing they do is conducted on my range during the Summer, so BTG is here now helping us set up our test. Full disclosure: Michael is my twin brother and today is our 45th birthday.

Happy birthday!
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Old 06-23-2012, 09:54   #173
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Old 06-23-2012, 10:10   #174
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That is a fair assessment. Some folks will invariably pick data along the way to support their beliefs, and that's ok for them, I guess. We do not anticipate evaluating the data until we have about 4800-5000 rounds through each carbine. At that point, we may seek to have the study published in a peer reviewed journal. Drs. Michael and Amy Courtney of the Ballistics Testing Group think that the study should be published.
Let's be a little realistic here, this study would never get published by an acredited journal and I'm not sure who you think your "peers" would be.

It's a simple and valid "test" but again, nothing more, nothing less.... but let's not make it into something that it's not.
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Old 06-23-2012, 10:19   #175
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