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Old 06-23-2012, 10:25   #176
cyphertext
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Originally Posted by MD357 View Post
Hopefully this thread will last long enough to see the results of the test.
Remember when you posted this back on page 1? I think Matthew is being gracious to post his data here and being open to questions on his methods and validity. Even if you don't agree with the methods, please be civil. I don't want him to pack up his data and go home!
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Old 06-23-2012, 10:43   #177
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Remember when you posted this back on page 1? I think Matthew is being gracious to post his data here and being open to questions on his methods and validity. Even if you don't agree with the methods, please be civil. I don't want him to pack up his data and go home!
I am being civil, I'm just calling it like it is, no names, insults or ad hom. (unlike what I've recieved) I've said MULTIPLE times in plain english... don't change a thing.... it's glocktalk. It's only when there was an insistance of this being some acredited study that I will point out that it's far from. I will say this again....

It doesn't need to be. It's absolutly fine for the needs and standards of this forum or any other gun forum. However, don't tell me it's going to published in a scientific journal because I know better.

In fact, my initial comment on post #98 says that this test will be more substantial than any anecdotes posted on the net. IMO. This however doesn't mean it's the equal to a PRJ study.

Last edited by MD357; 06-23-2012 at 10:44..
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Old 06-23-2012, 10:53   #178
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Let's be a little realistic here, this study would never get published by an acredited journal and I'm not sure who you think your "peers" would be.

It's a simple and valid "test" but again, nothing more, nothing less.... but let's not make it into something that it's not.
In matters of my health, I usually defer to my physicians. In matters of law, I defer to my attorneys and rely upon their counsel. In this scientific endeavor, should I rely upon the suggestions of scientists who test arms and armor for the U.S. military, or on the opinion of an anonymous intermet persona?

In truth, I would not begin to know how to submit a study for publication or who to consider appropriate parties to review the data, which is why I sought counsel. I am an educator and trainer, an expert in how to guide and condition human behavior. My area of application of my expertise happens to intersect with an opportunity to collect this data in a way which may be beneficial, so we will gather the data.

To make a determination concerning the suitability of the data for publication before the data is collected seems premature to me, especially since vetted, credentialed scientists think the study may have value to those in the scientific community who may wish to replicate certain aspects. Perhaps no one will want to touch the study. As we must shoot the carbines to evaluate their suitability for various applications; We must study the data to determine its suitability for various applications. The more qualified people we can get to review the data, the better we can assess what it means and how best to move forward.
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Last edited by Matthew Courtney; 06-23-2012 at 11:02..
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:19   #179
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So, am I correct in saying then that this first set of data points, the sight in, is not even meant to be compared between rifles? It is just a beginning data point set, so that you have something to measure against as the test progresses? For example, if in 4000 rounds, the groups open up to 3 inches, then you know that the barrel is no bueno?

if a series of data points if good enough to be compared to each other, why would it not be good enough to be used against other sets under similar conditions? we are going to get a spectrum of data points here and they will paint a picture, for, against or neutral.

are sport owners already trying to make excuses? movement in the handgaurd if not FF is something that happens in the RW. its not some benchracer fantasy.


i think its as valid a comparison that is reasonally possible under the conditions. do we really need a double blind study by accredited groups to justify the colt is better?

maybe the sport kicks it in the nuts. i dont know. dont make excuses and backpedal before both guns are even out of the box.

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Old 06-23-2012, 11:42   #180
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$225 for a gallon of oil?! Haha!
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:46   #181
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The German army in WWll got their ass kicked
Yes, after they conquered most of Europe.

Since German-speaking people invented the bolt action rifle, automatic pistol, sub machinegun, general purpose machine gun, anti-tank rifle, and assault rifle, it's kind of fun to observe what they were doing with firearms at that time.
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:47   #182
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$225 for a gallon of oil?! Haha!

lol!

i suspect its in an effort to avoid being discredited by the shills/fanboys.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:11   #183
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if a series of data points if good enough to be compared to each other, why would it not be good enough to be used against other sets under similar conditions? we are going to get a spectrum of data points here and they will paint a picture, for, against or neutral.

are sport owners already trying to make excuses?


i think its as valid a comparison that is reasonally possible under the conditions. do we really need a double blind study by accredited groups to justify the colt is better?

maybe the sport kicks it in the nuts. i dont know. dont make excuses and backpedal before both guns are even out of the box.
What is your problem? Where am I making excuses for anything? Some of the grouping seemed large, especially for premium ammo. That's part of testing, sometimes the results are different than what is expected. That is all I have said. I would not have expected Wolf to outperform premium ammo. Were you not surprised by that?

If Matthew was testing these for accuracy against each other, then his method is flawed. He has too many variables. If that was the goal of his test, he would remove the human factor first by bolting the rifles down in a sled. They would be fired indoors, in a controlled environment where temperature, humidity, wind, etc. could be controlled. Any variable that could be removed would be. It is impossible to remove every variable unless he is testing in a vacuum, but the easily controlled ones would have to be for it to have any validity.

What he is doing is getting a set of base points to compare the rifle to itself further down the line. And honestly, scientifically speaking, these numbers would be in question due to the variables as well, just as I previously pointed out. They can be used as a guide, but they are not irrefutable, as MD357 has pointed out as well.

My wife is a classically trained scientist as well, medical laboratory scientist. While not a firearms expert, she does see flaws in this study. She thinks that you may be able to draw some conclusions from this study, but it does not meet the standards of scientific study.

How 'bout we all just chill and wait to see what we get after many rounds. This isn't a "which rifle is more accurate" test, it is a "can the Sport hold up to hard use" test.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:17   #184
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What is your problem? Where am I making excuses for anything?

If Matthew was testing these for accuracy against each other, then his method is flawed. He has too many variables. If that was the goal of his test, he would remove the human factor first by bolting the rifles down in a sled. They would be fired indoors, in a controlled environment where temperature, humidity, wind, etc. could be controlled. Any variable that could be removed would be. It is impossible to remove every variable unless he is testing in a vacuum, but the easily controlled ones would have to be for it to have any validity.

What he is doing is getting a set of base points to compare the rifle to itself further down the line. And honestly, scientifically speaking, these numbers would be in question due to the variables as well, just as I previously pointed out. They can be used as a guide, but they are not irrefutable, as MD357 has pointed out as well.

My wife is a classically trained scientist as well, medical laboratory scientist. While not a firearms expert, she does see flaws in this study. She thinks that you may be able to draw some conclusions from this study, but it does not meet the standards of scientific study.

How 'bout we all just chill and wait to see what we get after many rounds. This isn't a "which rifle is more accurate" test, it is a "can the Sport hold up to hard use" test.

my problem is you seem to think it fine if compared to itself yet, if that data is valid why would it not be valid against another when the same variables are used.

makes zero scientific sence and your wife works in a lab so im sure she will agree.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:24   #185
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Essentially, we will consider a barrel ill suited for continued use when it will no longer shoot 5 inch groups with any available ammo. These rifles are not set up for precision shooting, even though if the barrels were free floated and custom loads worked up, they could likely hold 1 MOA. On a good day, I have been able to hold .4 MOA using the technique and scope I have on these rifles with great rifle/ammo combinations. All of the results so far seem to be within the margin of error, except for the m196 tracers.
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Last edited by Matthew Courtney; 06-23-2012 at 12:38..
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:32   #186
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Essentially, we will consider a barrel ill suited for continued use when it will no longer shoot 5 inch groups with any available ammo. All of the results so far seem to be within the margin of error, except for the m196 tracers.

im very much looking forward to see it the barrel coating of the smith can hang with good old fashioned chrome.



as far as what ammo they like/shoot best with we know every barrel can be its own animal.

5MOA?
wow, thats shot out to be sure in my book.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:33   #187
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my problem is you seem to think it fine if compared to itself yet, if that data is valid why would it not be valid against another when the same variables are used.

makes zero scientific sence and your wife works in a lab so im sure she will agree.
go back and re-read what I stated....

"What he is doing is getting a set of base points to compare the rifle to itself further down the line. And honestly, scientifically speaking, these numbers would be in question due to the variables as well, just as I previously pointed out. They can be used as a guide, but they are not irrefutable, as MD357 has pointed out as well."

Without removing all the variables, the numbers are not really valid. For example, ever go shooting and do really well, only to go back a week later and not shoot as well? Same rifle, same bench, same ammo lot, same human shooting. What is at fault, the rifle or the human?

And, by the way, my wife agrees and it makes sense to her as well. Even our 13 year old son pointed out that he has a human factor in there....he thought the gun should be in a sled for accuracy as well, like "Mythbusters" does it.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:34   #188
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im very much looking forward to see it the barrel coating of the smith can hang with good old fashioned chrome.



as far as what ammo they like/shoot best with we know every barrel can be its own animal.

5MOA?
wow, thats shot out to be sure in my book.
This we agree on...this is what I want to know! Even though Melonite is not a coating like chrome is.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:35   #189
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sounds like excuses to me.




lets throw the whole thing out now because of the human factor.



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Old 06-23-2012, 12:36   #190
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Matthew, I have no experience with tracer rounds...is that grouping you got with the Smith normal for that type of ammo?
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:37   #191
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sounds like excuses to me.




lets through the whole thing out now because of the human factor.


I'm sorry you don't understand science and scientific testing.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:37   #192
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This we agree on...this is what I want to know! Even though Melonite is not a coating like chrome is.
sure is it. it just bonds in another way. actually its a plating

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Old 06-23-2012, 12:40   #193
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I'm sorry you don't understand science and scientific testing.
ya, too bad.

im in the top 1 percentile, think what it could have been if i actually understood something.

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Old 06-23-2012, 12:49   #194
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ya, too bad.

im in the top 1 percentile, think what it could have been if i actually understood something.

Top 1 percentile of what? Enough childish games.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:52   #195
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Top 1 percentile of what? Enough childish games.

it sure as hell isnt english.



but ya, enough. im going to shoot some mil-spec guns with mil-spec ammo.

peace out!
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:57   #196
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Matthew, I have no experience with tracer rounds...is that grouping you got with the Smith normal for that type of ammo?

The incendiary compound in tracers does not always ignite or burn evenly or at a constant rate, which causes the ballistic coefficient to vary both within a bullet during flight, and from bullet to bullet at different distances. The group from the tracers was strung vertically. The horizontal dispersion was under an inch.

Our accuracy data is being collected in a way which makes it more valid in a comparative, or relative sense. This is opposed to an absolute sense. While it will be more valid for both types of applications as more data is added to the data set, if the most valid accuracy data for absolute applications were being sought, we would not be able to shoot the carbines in a manner which subjects them to the types of field conditions most likely to test their abilities to endure, rather than simply exist. 5 MOA is the military's standard for an infantry rifle. Right now let's consider the data +- .4 inches. BTG will help me give good accuracy ranges based upon the amount of data and the fluctuations of field conditions.
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Old 06-23-2012, 13:00   #197
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it sure as hell isnt english.



but ya, enough. im going to shoot some mil-spec guns with mil-spec ammo.

peace out!
Have fun....let me know about those tracer rounds! I thought you said you didn't have a Colt...
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Old 06-23-2012, 13:34   #198
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I am being civil....
My apologies... There is no way this is going to make it to the end without getting locked.
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Old 06-23-2012, 13:52   #199
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Have fun....let me know about those tracer rounds! I thought you said you didn't have a Colt...
tracers?

FYI something does not have to be used by the military to be considered mil-spec.

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Old 06-23-2012, 14:41   #200
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Happy Birthday! Thanks for doing the test and sharing the info.
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