[Matthew Courtney]

100 yards 5 shot groups in inches Colt 6920 883
Lake Charles, La

Win q3131 2.337
Fed 50 gr jhp 3.817
AE 50 gr tipped Varmint 1.448
Black hills new 69 gr match king hp 2.166
Win 45 gr varmint hp 8.311
Wolf 62 gr fmj 3.016
Fed 62 gr otm 4.238
Speer 63 gr jsp 3.680

Avg of 8............... 3.627 +- .6
avg of 5 55 grains or heavier..... 3.084 +- .8

Fed m196 tracer 4.619

[glocksterr]

happy B day!

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by glocksterr

lol! at that rate the smith has a long way to go and the colt looks close to shot out from the git go.

strange how it liked the 50gr varmint but not the 45gr.




happy B day!

Lots of traditionally rifled barrels like the Colt's shoot better after they have been broken in. We shot 30 rounds of q3131 function checking the gun and sighting it in before starting the test. Plus, there is quite a bit of data out there regarding the suitability of 1/7 barrels for varmint weights. My sample of handy ammo might have been biased against 1/7 barrels because I didn't previously own any. Perhaps we should get some 75 and 77 grain loads to balance out the ammo spectrum.

[fnfalman]

I'm not surprised that the Sport groups tighter than the Colt. After all it isn't "milspec" and probably built to better dimensional differences and materials. Hehe.

Let's face it. Colt owners (myself included) own the guns because of the Prancing Pony. Smith&Wesson wheelguns and pistols have always been superior and I'm not surprised that their version of the Mattel Toy is also superior to Colt.

[cyphertext]

I am still surprised by the result of the Black Hills ammo. Expected more from those.

The 1:7 barrel should favor heavier loads. The light varmint loads should shoot like crap out of both, in theory. Maybe stick with the 55 gr and heavier?

[K. Foster]

Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney

100 yards 5 shot groups in inches Colt 6920 883
Lake Charles, La

Win q3131 2.337
Fed 50 gr jhp 3.817
AE 50 gr tipped Varmint 1.448
Black hills new 69 gr match king hp 2.166
Win 45 gr varmint hp 8.311
Wolf 62 gr fmj 3.016
Fed 62 gr otm 4.238
Speer 63 gr jsp 3.680

Avg of 8............... 3.627 +- .6
avg of 5 55 grains or heavier..... 3.084 +- .8

Fed m196 tracer 4.619

How many 5 round groups are you shooting with each ammo type, one per gun?

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by fnfalman

I'm not surprised that the Sport groups tighter than the Colt. After all it isn't "milspec" and probably built to better dimensional differences and materials. Hehe.

Let's face it. Colt owners (myself included) own the guns because of the Prancing Pony. Smith&Wesson wheelguns and pistols have always been superior and I'm not surprised that their version of the Mattel Toy is also superior to Colt.

I know you are just trying to push some folks buttons, but I don't think we can come to that conclusion based on the data. Let's see what happens 5000 rounds from here. Remember, this is a marathon, not a 50 yard dash!

[fnfalman]

Originally Posted by cyphertext

I know you are just trying to push some folks buttons, but I don't think we can come to that conclusion based on the data. Let's see what happens 5000 rounds from here. Remember, this is a marathon, not a 50 yard dash!

Yep, it remains to be seen, but my money is still on Smith&Wesson. The company is well known for making better products than Colt, like it or not.

[TACLOAD]

My money's on Colt. The military's money is too, and not because Colt is the lowest bidder. I feel very comfortable with my M4 and RDS when I step out the door to go on a combat mission.

[oneyeopn]

Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney

Lots of traditionally rifled barrels like the Colt's shoot better after they have been broken in. We shot 30 rounds of q3131 function checking the gun and sighting it in before starting the test. Plus, there is quite a bit of data out there regarding the suitability of 1/7 barrels for varmint weights. My sample of handy ammo might have been biased against 1/7 barrels because I didn't previously own any. Perhaps we should get some 75 and 77 grain loads to balance out the ammo spectrum.

Matthew I am one of the people who frequent the M&P15 Forum over at S&W. I think you would be right to change your test ammo away from the lighter weight stuff. Make 50 your lowest, I was totally surprised at how well they both shot it. Add a 55gr fmj, the most common AR ammo used and take it up to 75 and 77. This would not be an advantage for either twist rate but would put them basically on the same level with no advantage to either one. I personally feel the lower weights are for .223 bolt action rifles with very slow twist rate 1-10, 1-12 and really are not meant to shoot in either AR style rifle. I do congratulate you on your endeavor and really want to see the real world data from extended usage. Thanks

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by fnfalman

Yep, it remains to be seen, but my money is still on Smith&Wesson. The company is well known for making better products than Colt, like it or not.

My bet is that we will see very little difference between the two. It will be interesting to see how the melonite holds up against the chrome. It will be interesting to see if the 4150 CMV barrel lasts any longer than the 4140 barrel, under semi auto use. It will be interesting to see what difference the semi auto BCG and carbine buffer make vs the heavy buffer and full auto carrier and heavy buffer of the Colt, and how long those buffers, springs, bolts, firing pins, etc. last.

I doubt we will see very much difference between the two at all, but as you said, it remains to be seen.

[Hour13]

Wow, haven't checked in on this thread in awhile, this has turned into a cluster****, lol. Bound to happen I suppose!

Matthew, keep up the good work brother, I can't wait to see how these two rifles hold up as the round-count climbs.

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by oneyeopn

Matthew I am one of the people who frequent the M&P15 Forum over at S&W. I think you would be right to change your test ammo away from the lighter weight stuff. Make 50 your lowest, I was totally surprised at how well they both shot it. Add a 55gr fmj, the most common AR ammo used and take it up to 75 and 77. This would not be an advantage for either twist rate but would put them basically on the same level with no advantage to either one. I personally feel the lower weights are for .223 bolt action rifles with very slow twist rate 1-10, 1-12 and really are not meant to shoot in either AR style rifle. I do congratulate you on your endeavor and really want to see the real world data from extended usage. Thanks

My apologies for not offering a more detailed description of Winchester Q3131. It is a 55 grain FMJ designed to meet milspecs for M193. My Q3131 is older than my Federal Lake City M193, and we shoot older ammo of a similar application first. We have an order of Hornady 75 grain and Black Hills 77 grain Match pending.

[Matthew Courtney]

Sunday evening, we had several experienced shooters try 4 different rifles with populer AR triggers and rate them 1 - 10. Here are the average ratings:

Colt 6920 stock trigger................ 4.0
Bushmaster with ALG ACT............5.7
M&P 15 Sport stock trigger...........6.3
Bushmaster with DPMS 2 stage.....7.8

Trigger feel is very subjective. I believe that before buying a Rifle, one should try that rifle's trigger for oneself.

[fowler]

I have seen and heard of at least 7-8 Colts blow up over 4 decades. Colt is not the best made or the final word in AR's.

[bigmoney890]

Originally Posted by fowler

I have seen and heard of at least 7-8 Colts blow up over 4 decades. Colt is not the best made or the final word in AR's.

I'm not a COLT fanboy by any means, but by your accounts, 1 COLT blows up every 5 years. To me, that's an EXTREMELY well made product.

And OP, is that bench rest shooting or standing off hand with those results?

[faawrenchbndr]

Originally Posted by fowler

I have seen and heard of at least 7-8 Colts blow up over 4 decades.
Colt is not the best made or the final word in AR's.

How bout the WHOLE story?!
Every AR I have ever seen that had "blown up" was an ammo induced failure.

[bigmoney890]

Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr

How bout the WHOLE story?!
Every AR I have ever seen that had "blown up" was an ammo induced failure.

+1 to this

[WayaX]

Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr

How bout the WHOLE story?!
Every AR I have ever seen that had "blown up" was an ammo induced failure.

He has it in for Colt. He has been asked for proof in other threads but doesn't deliver.

I mean, I could come up with anecdotal failures for many big name manufacturers and the lists would be high for everyone. I would bet money, however, that Colt would certainly not be near the top.

[K. Foster]

Originally Posted by fowler

I have seen and heard of at least 7-8 Colts blow up over 4 decades. Colt is not the best made or the final word in AR's.

This is the equivalent of saying guns kill people. It’s only half the story. Kabooms are caused by ammunition failures, an overcharge of powder or a squib load followed by a full power load.

[glocksterr]

im not supprised. like i said the smith trigger feels great for a single stage. actually the spikes would feel even better if it didnt feel like it had rocks in it.

so far its looking like the smith has a better trigger and is more accurate currently.

[fnfalman]

I'll grant that more information is needed on what causes these Colts to blow up. However, I do agree that Colt is neither the best or the final words on AR15/M16. They make their guns to mil-spec, and that's it. Mil-spec is just that: mil-spec. It ain't all that special, otherwise people wouldn't bother to shell out more moolah for Wilson Combat, Baer, Novesky or other manufacturers du jour.

[Dexters]

Originally Posted by K. Foster

This is the equivalent of saying guns kill people. It’s only half the story. Kabooms are caused by ammunition failures, an overcharge of powder or a squib load followed by a full power load.

Not even half

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by bigmoney890

I'm not a COLT fanboy by any means, but by your accounts, 1 COLT blows up every 5 years. To me, that's an EXTREMELY well made product.

And OP, is that bench rest shooting or standing off hand with those results?

The accuracy evaluation was done on a bench using sandbags under the handguard and buttstock.

[South Fla]

Somebody please call me when this minutia is over.....