[fastbolt]

It might pay to remember that the Remington 185gr JHP load was revised at least once when it was in production. I remember reports of failures to expand, and then later on reports of fragmentation and shallow penetration. I guess you can't pleased everyone, right?

The 185gr BJHP +P (Golden Sabre) wasn't one the Rem LE rep was interested in pushing when I attended a Rem gel event, although the 180gr bullet weight in .40 S&W was touted as a big seller for LE users. Go figure.

I remember when a cop I knew at another agency stopped carrying Win 185gr STHP after it failed to penetrate a pickup door when he emptied the mag of his P220 in a shooting incident. He went to carrying some 230gr JHP.

To be fair, the STHP line was never promoted by Win to be a load that was intended to penetrate (especially those with the aluminum jacket and soft lead core). Although the STHP lineup underwent some revision in recent years, the last time I spoke with a LE rep and asked about it, he said they weren't even trying to market it to LE/Gov users as it had always been a load intended to offer penetration on the shallow end of the range.

I'd like to think the 185gr & 200gr .45 bullets might have benefited from the introduction of the .45GAP, and I remember hearing the Speer 200gr GDHP bullet was redesigned (to help reduce plugging/failures to expand, if I recall correctly), so maybe the newest 185gr +P's are better? Dunno.

I tend to run the 230gr loads, myself (not being a GAP shooter). When I run a 230gr +P load (not often) it's the newer RA45TP T-Series.

Not something for which I'd think (or infer) there's a definitive answer, though.

Even if you find a 185gr FMJ/TCMC +P .45 ACP load, do you think it would be much different than a 180gr FMJ .40 S&W? (You can find them running just over 1020-1025fps.)

Good luck.

Not sure if you'll have much luck trying to make the .45 something it was never intended to be in the first place.

[Little Joe]

Interesting read. Thanks for that GRT45.

Originally Posted by GRT45

The following (reprinted post) is what caused me to drop any further consideration of 185gr +P JHP for my choice of 45ACP CCW ammo.

Mas Ayoob's column in the May/June 2011 issue of American Handgunner magazine (available online) is a remarkable story of a shootout between a 20-yr veteran LEO and a BG where both had .45ACP pistols. The gunfight occurred at extreme close range (6 feet) and neither man had benefit of cover. The LEO had a G21 with 14 rnds and the BG had a Sig P220 with 9 rnds. Both guns were empty at the end of the fight and the BG ran out of bullets first. The LEO was hit once in the leg and the BG was hit seven times (he survived). It's an important lesson about having the right ammo and adequate round capacity.

See The Ayoob Files - Dueling .45s: The Steve Lang Incident (Page 32)

The LEO switched from 185gr CorBon +P JHP to 230gr Speer Gold Dot JHP immediately after the gunfight.

Below is an excerpt from the article where the LEO explains his reason for switching to 230gr ammo:

" He was not pleased with his bullets’ performances. He feels his 185-grain bullets, at approximately 1,150 foot-seconds, opened too soon and did not penetrate as much as might have been optimal. One shot did massive damage tracking up the suspect’s arm, but did not exit the arm to reenter the chest, which Lang feels might have stopped the action sooner. Immediately after the gunfight, he switched to Gold Dot 230-grain .45 ACP for the Glock 21 he continued to carry in uniform. "

For reference, Mas Ayoob loads 230gr Winchester Ranger-T JHP in his CCW Glock 30 45ACP pistol. He will be glad to tell you his reasons if you pose the question to him in the GATE Self-Defense Forum at Glock Talk.

[PghJim]

The 45 ACP I carry in the woods concealed has a shorter barrel that your G21, but it still should work for you. I use Buffalo Bore's 185gr. +p Barnes load. Great energy, great penetration and great expansion. If it were legal, I would not hesitate taking a deer with this load.

[jmchaney]

Originally Posted by GRT45

" He was not pleased with his bullets’ performances. He feels his 185-grain bullets, at approximately 1,150 foot-seconds, opened too soon and did not penetrate as much as might have been optimal. One shot did massive damage tracking up the suspect’s arm, but did not exit the arm to reenter the chest, which Lang feels might have stopped the action sooner. Immediately after the gunfight, he switched to Gold Dot 230-grain .45 ACP for the Glock 21 he continued to carry in uniform. "

Of the 14 rounds the officer fired, 7 missed completely, 2 struck the lower legs, 2 in the thighs, one in the forearm and one in the pelvis. He did manage to get ONE round to the chest. And he is dissatisfied in the bullet's performance??

[bear62]

Originally Posted by jmchaney

Of the 14 rounds the officer fired, 7 missed completely, 2 struck the lower legs, 2 in the thighs, one in the forearm and one in the pelvis. He did manage to get ONE round to the chest. And he is dissatisfied in the bullet's performance??

[Coffee Dog]

You shooters like your Pork? Well here's a 230+P HST
tenderizing your Pork Shoulder! Hope you like your meal.

.45ACP 230gr Federal HST +P (P45HST1) vs Pork Shoulder.. - YouTube

.45ACP 230gr Federal HST +P (P45HST1) vs Pork Shoulder.. - YouTube

[kenndapp]

Further more......if its not 230gr, then what's the point in using .45acp? At any thing 200gr or less , wouldn't you be better served with a 40 s&w? At least then you would have a higher magazine capacity.

[Shark1007]

When your target shoots back, everything changes real fast. When you take a hit, it also alters things mightily. That extra magazine capacity saved his life. The officer did just fine, but probably visits the range a little more often.

[bilkay]

I don't think you can go wrong with the HST or Ranger T. I like standard pressure Ranger T 230gr because I shoot it best.

[Warp]

For defensive use in a G21 I would go with the 230gr Gold Dot or the 230gr +P HST. I used to say Ranger, but I am lukewarm on them now after multiple quality control issues (failures) with Winchester Ranger.

My 21SF is currently loaded with the 230 Gold Dot.

[UnTainted]

Originally Posted by kenndapp

Further more......if its not 230gr, then what's the point in using .45acp? At any thing 200gr or less , wouldn't you be better served with a 40 s&w? At least then you would have a higher magazine capacity.

JMB originally designed the 45 to be a 200 grain load, IIRC

[SCmasterblaster]

CorBon 185gr JHP for sure.

[Ghost Tracker]

It's 230 gr. Gold Dots for me. (But I'm buying enough time to get my 870 into the fight!)

[Beretta92guy]

Originally Posted by kenndapp

Further more......if its not 230gr, then what's the point in using .45acp? At any thing 200gr or less , wouldn't you be better served with a 40 s&w? At least then you would have a higher magazine capacity.

ding, ding, ding....WINNER.....

that is exactly what i say....

in 45 its GO BIG, which means 230 grain.......anything less, just carry a 40 with higher capacity

[gofastman]

Originally Posted by GRT45

The following (reprinted post) is what caused me to drop any further consideration of 185gr +P JHP for my choice of 45ACP CCW ammo.

Mas Ayoob's column in the May/June 2011 issue of American Handgunner magazine (available online) is a remarkable story of a shootout between a 20-yr veteran LEO and a BG where both had .45ACP pistols. The gunfight occurred at extreme close range (6 feet) and neither man had benefit of cover. The LEO had a G21 with 14 rnds and the BG had a Sig P220 with 9 rnds. Both guns were empty at the end of the fight and the BG ran out of bullets first. The LEO was hit once in the leg and the BG was hit seven times (he survived). It's an important lesson about having the right ammo and adequate round capacity.

See The Ayoob Files - Dueling .45s: The Steve Lang Incident (Page 32)

The LEO switched from 185gr CorBon +P JHP to 230gr Speer Gold Dot JHP immediately after the gunfight.

Below is an excerpt from the article where the LEO explains his reason for switching to 230gr ammo:

" He was not pleased with his bullets’ performances. He feels his 185-grain bullets, at approximately 1,150 foot-seconds, opened too soon and did not penetrate as much as might have been optimal. One shot did massive damage tracking up the suspect’s arm, but did not exit the arm to reenter the chest, which Lang feels might have stopped the action sooner. Immediately after the gunfight, he switched to Gold Dot 230-grain .45 ACP for the Glock 21 he continued to carry in uniform. "

For reference, Mas Ayoob loads 230gr Winchester Ranger-T JHP in his CCW Glock 30 45ACP pistol. He will be glad to tell you his reasons if you pose the question to him in the GATE Self-Defense Forum at Glock Talk.

The DPX line is VERY different from their standard JHP line up.

notice the claimed velocities on cor-bon's website.
Original JHP=1150fps
DPX=1075fps


Im really curious to know what a 185gr Barnes Tac-XP and a 230gr HST bullet would do at 45 Super velocity

[Deputydave]

Originally Posted by Cole125

Thanks for all the advise. I know there are lots of great .45 acp ammo choices available but I am looking for the "best" ones.

There is no 'best' round for any caliber. Some 'can' be better than others, but 'best' is subjective. Keeping in mind the number one priority of shot placement; for some, best can be a round that penetrates deeper. For others, one that expands more reliably. For others it is speed. Of the above three considerations, penetatration is the one to be concerned with. I have a man sitting 40 feet from me right now that survived 6 shots of .45ACP 185gr Win Silvertip. Two of the rounds were chest, one face and the other three in the lower extremities. One round caused an amputation during surgery. The point is, none of the rounds penetrated to hit anything vital. I was chatting with him about the injuries just moments before typing this post.

I have my personal/professional views here: Definitive Guide to Handgunning

In short, caliber/velocity/energy/type of round etc don't mean as much as most would assume. Shot placement and a round that will be able to penetrate to a vital are the two priorties. The third would be fast/accurate follow up shots. Any velocity that the round has in excess of having the round exit the barrel, reach the target and performing as designed just slows follow up shots, affects accuracy, increases the wear and tear on your gun and drains your pocket book a bit more.

I use a 230gr GD in my G21 on duty. It has a very good track record when the shot(s) are properly placed.

[CanyonMan]

Originally Posted by Deputydave

There is no 'best' round for any caliber. Some 'can' be better than others, but 'best' is subjective. Keeping in mind the number one priority of shot placement; for some, best can be a round that penetrates deeper. For others, one that expands more reliably. For others it is speed. Of the above three considerations, penetatration is the one to be concerned with. I have a man sitting 40 feet from me right now that survived 6 shots of .45ACP 185gr Win Silvertip. Two of the rounds were chest, one face and the other three in the lower extremities. One round caused an amputation during surgery. The point is, none of the rounds penetrated to hit anything vital. I was chatting with him about the injuries just moments before typing this post.

I have my personal/professional views here: Definitive Guide to Handgunning

In short, caliber/velocity/energy/type of round etc don't mean as much as most would assume. Shot placement and a round that will be able to penetrate to a vital are the two priorties. The third would be fast/accurate follow up shots. Any velocity that the round has in excess of having the round exit the barrel, reach the target and performing as designed just slows follow up shots, affects accuracy, increases the wear and tear on your gun and drains your pocket book a bit more.

I use a 230gr GD in my G21 on duty. It has a very good track record when the shot(s) are properly placed.

YEP.


Stay safe amigo.



CM

[ABNAK]

Originally Posted by DonGlock26

We use Federal HST 230gr +P. I think that's plenty hot and it works well in the field.

_

This.

[Coffee Dog]

CORBON 185+p DPX!

[Happypuppy]

Add my vote to the 230 grain HST

[kenndapp]

Originally Posted by Happypuppy

Add my vote to the 230 grain HST

yup. total agreement.

[Trigger Finger]

For seven years I carried a S&W 4506 with 230 grain HP +P and it was very effective by me and the section I was in. However I firmly believe that the main issue in a gunfight is SHOT PLACEMENT.

I also beleive that the best 45 round you can get is the 45 Super. You can shoot them out of a standard, non improved 45 auto but shooting more than about 50 or one hundred rounds a year will cause FTF and extraction problems. Not to mention accuracy problems early on. You need at least an improved recoil spring and better barrel.

In Bear country I would rather have my G21 with 45 Supers and 14 rounds then my 6 inch Model 29 with 6 rounds of 44 magnum!!

For strictly self defense I think a good 230 grain +P in 45 ACP , probably HST , is plenty. And just concentrate on shot placement!!

[Warp]

Originally Posted by Trigger Finger

I also beleive that the best 45 round you can get is the 45 Super. You can shoot them out of a standard, non improved 45 auto but shooting more than about 50 or one hundred rounds a year will cause FTF and extraction problems.

...what?

How the hell does number of rounds per year matter??

[Trigger Finger]

Originally Posted by Warp

...what?

How the hell does number of rounds per year matter??

Let's keep a civil Keyboard!!
Constant battering of the slide and recoil spring under extreme pressure can have detrimental affects to a pistol!!
Or are you unaware of this fact.

Maybe I should have said that with this number of shots a year you can get several years of usage, possibly, out of the gun!!

Excuse me for not stating the obvious!