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Old 06-08-2012, 09:58   #76
Jon_R
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The wording from FS 790.001 Definitions in case anyone wants to actually see it in all its glory.

(2) “Concealed firearm” means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.

IMO IMO IMO

Seeing the bottom of an enclosed holster meaning you do not see a gun is concealed. Laying on the ground to see "up" the holster seeing a gun muzzle barrel would not be ordinary sight. Seeing the outline of the gun without actually seeing gun is concealed from ordinary sight. Might mean nothing in this particular case if the officer saw actual firearm but I hold that there is no printing in FL and a holster is not a firearm.

Of course that is IMO.
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:19   #77
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It appears this individual was using this gun as a status symbol. It is a good arrest since it was not an accidental exposure. For it to be an accidental exposure you have to be carrying concealed to begin with. It is hard to believe that this individual was not aware that his gun was visible. Anyone who believes otherwise is lying to themselves.

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Old 06-08-2012, 11:30   #78
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It appears this individual was using this gun as a status symbol. It is a good arrest since it was not an accidental exposure. For it to be an accidental exposure you have to be carrying concealed to begin with. It is hard to believe that this individual was not aware that his gun was visible. Anyone who believes otherwise is lying to themselves.

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I wonder what the evidence against him will be other than officer testimony? Soon as he was ordered to put his hands up or at least once he was forced to the ground if it was concealed from ordinary sight or not can't be used as it was not no longer his choice. You should not be expected to maintain concealment when forced to do unnatural activities.

How will the state prove beyond reasonable doubt that is was not accidental exposure?

I hope the case goes forward and forces the issue. To bad for him but maybe some good comes from it for us.

If it is legal to unconceal it for some undetermined arbitrary time then it should be okay to unconceal it all the time making open carry legal.

The entire thing took place a little south of me so will try and keep an eye on it. I think the case will be dropped before it ever goes to court meaning it can't get a judicial review for some precedence....
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:18   #79
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.....
The entire thing took place a little south of me so will try and keep an eye on it. I think the case will be dropped before it ever goes to court meaning it can't get a judicial review for some precedence....
This is the probability!



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Old 06-08-2012, 14:14   #80
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They might not...but it was originally understood that any ban on carrying Openly is null and void...Nunn Vs GA was cited in the Heller decision

In Nunn v. State, 1Ga. 243, 251 (1846), the Georgia Supreme Court construed the Second Amendment as protecting the “natural right of self-defence” and therefore struck down a ban on carrying pistols openly. Its opinion perfectly captured the way in which the operative clause of the Second Amendment furthers the purpose announced in the prefatory clause, in continuity with the English right:




from Nunn V GA

Maybe his attorney should ask for the case to be dismissed based on this ruling. A few things have changed since this case law was written but this might be the ruling to have open carry declared to be legal everwhere. Never know unless one tries...
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Old 06-08-2012, 15:59   #81
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Should have worn a hoodie!

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Old 06-08-2012, 20:43   #82
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Update

Mr. Norman was found guilty of OC by the jury. The foreman of the jury addressed the court stating, in essence that 'this law has no merit'.

Mr. Norman's attorney filed 5 motions to dismiss the charges the day before the trial, and the judge is currently reviewing them, and will hear arguments on the motions on July 31st.

This one is far from over. That's all I can say at the moment.
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Last edited by rvrctyrngr; 06-08-2012 at 20:44.. Reason: Clarification
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Old 06-08-2012, 21:00   #83
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i dont think the gun had much to do with this fools arrest.....know what i mean..
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Old 06-08-2012, 21:55   #84
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Originally Posted by rvrctyrngr View Post
Mr. Norman was found guilty of OC by the jury. The foreman of the jury addressed the court stating, in essence that 'this law has no merit'.

Mr. Norman's attorney filed 5 motions to dismiss the charges the day before the trial, and the judge is currently reviewing them, and will hear arguments on the motions on July 31st.

This one is far from over. That's all I can say at the moment.
Could you elaborate a bit more on what they could have possibly meant by that?

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Old 06-08-2012, 22:07   #85
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Could you elaborate a bit more on what they could have possibly meant by that?

.
Nope. Not at the moment. Should have the audio or transcript sometime next week. If I find out anything before that, will let you know, m'dear.

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Old 06-08-2012, 22:58   #86
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Nope. Not at the moment. Should have the audio or transcript sometime next week. If I find out anything before that, will let you know, m'dear.

Thank you!

(I’ll contain my curiosity until then.)

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Old 06-09-2012, 07:31   #87
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Everything else aside, he is wearing shorts that are sagging below his waist with a CLOSE fitting undershirt while using an OWB holster. His choice of holster with the clothing he is wearing is exactly what caused this.

When I am wearing casual clothes (jeans and a polo), I use a Galco OWB holster and have NEVER had a problem with accidental or incidental exposure.

When I am working around the house (on my own property, I know OC is legal however I still choose not to) or going to the beach I am usually in shorts and a very similar tank top. With clothing like that, my Ruger LCP is in a pocket holster.

Unconstitutional as it may be, it is still the LAW in FL. He made a very poor clothing/holster decision. Should he have been arrested for it especially considering he had just received his CCW, ABSOLUTELY NOT. Should the police have given him a stern talking to about the necessity of concealing his weapon? ABSOLUTELY.

Some areas of Ft. Pierce are not very good. My guess would be that a bit of profiling happened here and the sagging pants and area this happened in most likely led to the arrest going as it did. (5 officers acting as if a crime had been committed).

Hopefully this gets dismissed or he gets found not guilty and he makes some better decisions next time while carrying.
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:49   #88
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Maybe his attorney should ask for the case to be dismissed based on this ruling. A few things have changed since this case law was written but this might be the ruling to have open carry declared to be legal everwhere. Never know unless one tries...
well that is a case from GA i dont think it will much of a help to him...but heller does say that ruling perfectly capture the right at the time of the founding...
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:52   #89
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Everything else aside, he is wearing shorts that are sagging below his waist with a CLOSE fitting undershirt while using an OWB holster. His choice of holster with the clothing he is wearing is exactly what caused this.

When I am wearing casual clothes (jeans and a polo), I use a Galco OWB holster and have NEVER had a problem with accidental or incidental exposure.

When I am working around the house (on my own property, I know OC is legal however I still choose not to) or going to the beach I am usually in shorts and a very similar tank top. With clothing like that, my Ruger LCP is in a pocket holster.

Unconstitutional as it may be, it is still the LAW in FL. He made a very poor clothing/holster decision. Should he have been arrested for it especially considering he had just received his CCW, ABSOLUTELY NOT. Should the police have given him a stern talking to about the necessity of concealing his weapon? ABSOLUTELY.

Some areas of Ft. Pierce are not very good. My guess would be that a bit of profiling happened here and the sagging pants and area this happened in most likely led to the arrest going as it did. (5 officers acting as if a crime had been committed).

Hopefully this gets dismissed or he gets found not guilty and he makes some better decisions next time while carrying.




an unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it is in legal contemplation as though it had never been passed.
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where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
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Last edited by rmodel65; 06-09-2012 at 10:56..
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:56   #90
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Originally Posted by rmodel65 View Post
an unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it is in legal contemplation as though it had never been passed.
-norton v. shelby county, 118 US 425
I'd sure like the judge to see it that way. I don't want to carry in the open, but I think others should have the right to.
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Old 06-09-2012, 19:49   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmodel65 View Post
an unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it is in legal contemplation as though it had never been passed.
-norton v. shelby county, 118 US 425



where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
-miranda v. arizona, 384 US 436 (1966)
While I completely agree with the sentiment of your post, the law is constitutional and valid until a judge says it's not and all appeals have run their course without reversal.
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Old 06-09-2012, 21:29   #92
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While I completely agree with the sentiment of your post, the law is constitutional and valid until a judge says it's not and all appeals have run their course without reversal.
i disagree...if the state of florida passes a law tomorrow that bans you from going to a church is the law valid till a judges decides that its not? most definitely not as the SCOTUS has said an unconstitutional law is like it was never passed in the first place

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Old 06-10-2012, 00:48   #93
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i disagree...if the state of florida passes a law tomorrow that bans you from going to a church is the law valid till a judges decides that its not? most definitely not as the SCOTUS has said an unconstitutional law is like it was never passed in the first place
So why can't I walk into my local gun store and buy a brand spanking new machine gun? The Hughes Amendment to the Firearm Owners Protection Act that was signed into law in 1986 was certainly unconstitutional.

There are many unconstitutional laws out there. You are even free to violate all of them at will. When you end up being arrested for one of them, just tell the arresting officers and then subsequently the court that "the SCOTUS has said an unconstitutional law is like it was never passed in the first place".

Let us know how that works out for ya.

In the meantime, most of the rest of us will follow even the unconstitutional laws imposed by both the federal government and individual states to avoid the consequence of going to prison.
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Old 06-10-2012, 05:58   #94
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I'm shocked! Baggy, drooping shorts and a wife-beater shirt won't conceal a firearm?????
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:37   #95
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I agree that he is guilty of carrying a holster unconcealed. If that were illegal.

Makes me want to strap on an OWB holster with a banana in it and cover the top of the holster with a T-shirt. After having my face slammed into the pavement it might get the point across that a holster is not a firearm.

Kind of a stupid law if you ask me. I can legally wear a T-shirt that says "I am carrying two concealed handguns and a switchblade knife", so it really is not about the public knowing you have a gun.
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:27   #96
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Quote:
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So why can't I walk into my local gun store and buy a brand spanking new machine gun? The Hughes Amendment to the Firearm Owners Protection Act that was signed into law in 1986 was certainly unconstitutional.

There are many unconstitutional laws out there. You are even free to violate all of them at will. When you end up being arrested for one of them, just tell the arresting officers and then subsequently the court that "the SCOTUS has said an unconstitutional law is like it was never passed in the first place".

Let us know how that works out for ya.

In the meantime, most of the rest of us will follow even the unconstitutional laws imposed by both the federal government and individual states to avoid the consequence of going to prison.

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Old 06-10-2012, 10:37   #97
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I have read just about every post on here now and my take is as follows:

1) New to concealed carry, yes.
2) Knowing the Ft. Pierce area as it just a little south of me, the defendant in the case was dressed out like a stereo-typical street thug. Is it his right to dress that way, sure it is. But we as humans all carry prejudices based upon our first impressions. The measure of us is how we allow these prejudices to influence our day today lives. In short, he dress like a thug, was young and probably pretty immature and was carrying as a status symbol on those particular streets. Sorry all the civil liberty folks out there, but, if you act and dress like a thug, you will probably get treated like a thug. Hence, I do not act or dress like a thug. It kind of takes me to that commercial "Don't re-enact scenes from Platoon with Charlie Sheen."

3) Was the police response excessive or over the top as described by some? NO! In my jurisdiction a local deputy conducted a traffic stop of a subject to question him regarding a theft of some furniture from a local motel. Less than one minute later the deputy had been shot dead. It was later determined that the bad guy had been previously arrested and gave his brothers information and bonded out under his name. The deputy did not know this and conducted the stop as she did based upon what she did know.

The Officers in this video also reacted based upon what they knew. The had received information that the man was carrying a gun. The DID NOT know if he had a concealed permit or if he was a felon on the run for other crimes. Based on the totality of the circumstances, which include what they know about the neighborhood, etc. the response falls within the realm of reasonable based on existing case law.

For me, the litmus test here would be, had the subject not possessed a valid concealed weapons permit, would they have still charged "open Carry" or would they have gone the route of "Carrying a Concealed Firearm?"
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:09   #98
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For me, the litmus test here would be, had the subject not possessed a valid concealed weapons permit, would they have still charged "open Carry" or would they have gone the route of "Carrying a Concealed Firearm?"
I would have to wager that it would still be the same charge being that the subject, if he was in fact trying to conceal that he had a firearm, was doing a pretty piss poor job of it, hence the police getting involved.

If nobody had seen the gun in the first place, this series of events would most likely not have occurred at all.

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Old 06-10-2012, 20:07   #99
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For me, the litmus test here would be, had the subject not possessed a valid concealed weapons permit, would they have still charged "open Carry" or would they have gone the route of "Carrying a Concealed Firearm?"
Charged him with both probably. Which would make for an interesting trial.... If they could get him on the stand they could ask him. So where you carrying open or concealed. Just answer the question.... State rests.
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Old 06-10-2012, 20:15   #100
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Mr. Norman was found guilty of OC by the jury. The foreman of the jury addressed the court stating, in essence that 'this law has no merit'.

Mr. Norman's attorney filed 5 motions to dismiss the charges the day before the trial, and the judge is currently reviewing them, and will hear arguments on the motions on July 31st.

This one is far from over. That's all I can say at the moment.
I hope the charges aren't dismissed. I want it to go to the apelate court then maybe FL supreme court myself. Given brief exposure is acceptable then open carry should be legal. I am not sure what other laws are you can do it for a little bit but if you do it more than that you broke the law. Can I just still a car for 10 minutes and it is cool any longer then it is a crime?

We need some test cases and I don't want them to have my name on them so thank you Mr Norman....

Okay so who is going to be the test case that under Heller decision you can keep a gun in your dorm room.. We just need a few arrests on this and go from there guys.
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