Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-06-2012, 01:07   #1
Gunhaver
the wrong hands
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,736
Blog Entries: 1
The flaw in arguments for god.

I'd like the theists to watch this and tell me where you think it's wrong. We've been over the points in this video so many times and for many it just won't sink in. I don't expect it to change anyone's mind but it'll make a nice thread to link back to the next time someone gives the, "Well you can't prove god doesn't exist!" argument as if it's some all purpose debate winning statement.

Gunhaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 05:59   #2
GreenDrake
Rip Lips
 
GreenDrake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 7,754
Sums it up quite well. Thanks for sharing.
__________________
"Can you FLY, Bobby?"
P229 EDC
GreenDrake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 08:32   #3
Gunhaver
the wrong hands
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,736
Blog Entries: 1
Yes it does. I expect this one to be largely ignored. Just like it never happened.
Gunhaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 09:26   #4
dbcooper
Senior Member
 
dbcooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,138
__________________
A broad brush paints a lousy picture, lacking the nuance and details of life's realities. As a young man my paints were black and white, with age came a palette holding many shades of gray.
dbcooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 09:53   #5
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 15,069


Wish we had that video in the intellectual honesty thread.
__________________
Peace is our profession, war is just a hobby...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Geko45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 10:25   #6
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 11,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbcooper View Post
Hell as it is taught by some is excessive punishment.

The Bible is clear on the subject. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture. This is not excessive seeing all of the non believers believe they will die and enter oblivion. The difference is that Christians believe the promise of the gift of eternal life.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Vic Hays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 10:51   #7
cowboywannabe
you savvy?
 
cowboywannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: on a planet near you
Posts: 22,047
Gunhaver, thank you for that refreshing breeze of common sence.
__________________
with Sarah Jane, Leela, Romana, Nyssa, and Tegan.

Facts are no match against enthusiasm and ignorance...
cowboywannabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 11:35   #8
Rally Vincent
Bipolar
 
Rally Vincent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Bar.
Posts: 1,115


Well, I'm catholic. But, great video.
__________________
"There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man."
Niners Club Member - #196
1911 Club Member - #001
"All evil comes from the old.They grow fat on ideas and young men die of them."
Rally Vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 18:50   #9
scottz0369
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Tomah, WI
Posts: 165
As a Theist (Christian in particular), I found a couple of things interesting in this video, aside from the contempt for religion in general.
The narrator noted (and I’m paraphrasing here; I don’t have a transcript) that our brains are fallible and our limited technology gives us gaps in our understanding. I completely agree with that statement. As science advances, we get new information, which leads to new conclusions. For example, I remember clearly the warnings about the coming Ice Age when I was a kid. Science has advanced, and we now have more to worry about (if scientists are to be believed) from global warming. My experience has been to take science with a grain of salt, especially when it comes to theories. We know the universe exists, and at some point our world and life on it came into being. What we don’t know is how. Until someone can replicate it, any explanation is a theory. I’ve chosen to place my trust in the Bible, and its explanations of how things work. Note that the Bible says that God created the Earth and everything on it. What it doesn’t say is how. At some point in the future, perhaps our understanding of how such a thing could come to be will improve, but I don’t need an ironclad explanation for something to believe in it. I just need a preponderance of evidence to place my trust in something. If we agree that our minds are fallible, and our technology limited, then to put all of our faith in people (who used their minds and technology to come to a particular conclusion) seems to defeat the thesis of this entire video.
Logic is an important skill, but it only goes so far, but at some point, “faith” has to come into play. For example, I flew to Georgia last month. I don’t personally know the pilots, the maintenance crew, or any of the other things that come into play to keep a plane in the air. Now, using evidence of observations and experience, I can make a judgment that everything works correctly the vast majority of the time, but occasionally they don’t. I put my trust, or faith in the pilots, crew, etc. to get me where I want to go safely. Same when it comes to my faith. I don’t claim to understand the mechanics of creation, but there’s enough other information in the Bible that does explain many things (human nature, especially), that I have chosen to put my trust/faith in it.
Another point I agreed with was when the narrator said (again, I’m paraphrasing) that if a person should be honest with (yourself) about what you know and don’t know. Back to my Ice Age example, 30 or so years ago, I (and many others) could have said that I know an Ice Age is coming because scientists said so. What I didn’t know at the time was what methods the scientists were using, if their data analysis was accurate, etc. Turns out they were wrong.
I don’t believe that science and religion (Christianity anyway) are mutually exclusive, nor do any of the Christians I’ve known throughout the years. The same can’t be said for some of the highly-educated people I know.
So back to what I think was the original point of the video, the logical fallacy of attempting to prove a creator. That’s correct, I can’t prove a creator using logic. Nor can I prove that George Washington existed. I do have credible evidence that he did, so I put my trust in those that say he existed. Same for the God of the Bible. There’s enough credible evidence for me that it’s accurate, so I choose to put my faith in what it says. On an aside, I was once an agnostic until I started looking at the evidence myself, but it still required a leap of faith to believe.
One observation I took away from the video was the distaste for someone trying to convince another to come to their way of thinking. What then was the point of the video? If it was made for people that already subscribe to a certain belief system –use of logic in this case – then it seems like a waste of time and effort for the person who created it. If it was to change the mind of someone that doesn’t hold these same beliefs, then that seems hypocritical.
I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind; I doubt I’ve got the power to do that. But if I’m going to be honest with myself about what I know and don’t know, I’ve got to look at the other side of the argument, weigh the evidence, and make a decision. That’s what led me to becoming a believer in the first place. All this talk about concrete evidence being required to believe something seems intellectually dishonest as there are very few things we know with absolute certainty, but we routinely put our trust (faith, if you will) in people and things based on our imperfect assessment of incomplete information. If I hold of a decision until I’ve got all the associated information, I’d never make a decision. Nor would most people.


If you’re interested in logical arguments from the Christian perspective, check out some podcasts from Ravi Zacharias. Hes far more eloquent than I.

Scott
scottz0369 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 20:25   #10
juggy4711
Nimrod Son
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Galveston County, TX
Posts: 3,807
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottz0369 View Post
As a Theist (Christian in particular), I found a couple of things interesting in this video, aside from the contempt for religion in general.
If you want folks to read your posts I'd suggest not using a font and font size that does not hurts folks eyes. Seriously WTF is up with that?

Last edited by juggy4711; 06-06-2012 at 20:26..
juggy4711 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 20:29   #11
juggy4711
Nimrod Son
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Galveston County, TX
Posts: 3,807
As a Deists of sorts I found that down right refreshing.
juggy4711 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 20:41   #12
Kingarthurhk
Isaiah 53:4-9
 
Kingarthurhk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbcooper View Post
http://www.helltruth.com/
__________________
Glock 17, 19, 20SF, 21C, 22, 26, 27, Glock E-Tool, Glock knife
Quod ego haereticus appellari sequere Jesum.
Kingarthurhk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 20:41   #13
Tilley
Man of Steel
 
Tilley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,161
Quote:
Originally Posted by juggy4711 View Post
If you want folks to read your posts I'd suggest not using a font and font size that does not hurts folks eyes. Seriously WTF is up with that?
Don't make him never no mind. We is a troublesome bunch here, but we welcomes us strangers round there parts!

Welcome to RI Scott!
Tilley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 20:46   #14
Kingarthurhk
Isaiah 53:4-9
 
Kingarthurhk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by juggy4711 View Post
If you want folks to read your posts I'd suggest not using a font and font size that does not hurts folks eyes. Seriously WTF is up with that?
Probably a word processor to take care of spelling faux pas. This is a problem I typically have, because I tend to type quickly and off the cuff without the use of a spell checker. This particular board does not have an internal spell checker, and it tends to be the raison d'etre of Atheists to portray Theists as stupid by nit picking their grammar and spelling. Rather than subject himself to such scrutiny, I suspect he has chosen to type his response in a word processor and then paste the contents to a post.
__________________
Glock 17, 19, 20SF, 21C, 22, 26, 27, Glock E-Tool, Glock knife
Quod ego haereticus appellari sequere Jesum.
Kingarthurhk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 21:12   #15
juggy4711
Nimrod Son
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Galveston County, TX
Posts: 3,807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilley View Post
Don't make him never no mind. We is a troublesome bunch here, but we welcomes us strangers round there parts!

Welcome to RI Scott!
What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Probably a word processor to take care of spelling faux pas. This is a problem I typically have, because I tend to type quickly and off the cuff without the use of a spell checker. This particular board does not have an internal spell checker, and it tends to be the raison d'etre of Atheists to portray Theists as stupid by nit picking their grammar and spelling. Rather than subject himself to such scrutiny, I suspect he has chosen to type his response in a word processor and then paste the contents to a post.
Again what? When I misspell a word GT underlines it with red squiggly. If I brush the text and right click it shows options for acceptable spelling or in other words GT has spell check built in.
juggy4711 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 21:49   #16
Syclone538
Senior Member
 
Syclone538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottz0369 View Post
As a Theist (Christian in particular), I found a couple of things interesting in this video, aside from the contempt for religion in general.

The narrator noted (and I’m paraphrasing here; I don’t have a transcript) that our brains are fallible and our limited technology gives us gaps in our understanding. I completely agree with that statement. As science advances, we get new information, which leads to new conclusions. For example, I remember clearly the warnings about the coming Ice Age when I was a kid. Science has advanced, and we now have more to worry about (if scientists are to be believed) from global warming. My experience has been to take science with a grain of salt, especially when it comes to theories. We know the universe exists, and at some point our world and life on it came into being. What we don’t know is how. Until someone can replicate it, any explanation is a theory. I’ve chosen to place my trust in the Bible, and its explanations of how things work. Note that the Bible says that God created the Earth and everything on it. What it doesn’t say is how. At some point in the future, perhaps our understanding of how such a thing could come to be will improve, but I don’t need an ironclad explanation for something to believe in it. I just need a preponderance of evidence to place my trust in something. If we agree that our minds are fallible, and our technology limited, then to put all of our faith in people (who used their minds and technology to come to a particular conclusion) seems to defeat the thesis of this entire video.

Logic is an important skill, but it only goes so far, but at some point, “faith” has to come into play. For example, I flew to Georgia last month. I don’t personally know the pilots, the maintenance crew, or any of the other things that come into play to keep a plane in the air. Now, using evidence of observations and experience, I can make a judgment that everything works correctly the vast majority of the time, but occasionally they don’t. I put my trust, or faith in the pilots, crew, etc. to get me where I want to go safely. Same when it comes to my faith. I don’t claim to understand the mechanics of creation, but there’s enough other information in the Bible that does explain many things (human nature, especially), that I have chosen to put my trust/faith in it.

Another point I agreed with was when the narrator said (again, I’m paraphrasing) that if a person should be honest with (yourself) about what you know and don’t know. Back to my Ice Age example, 30 or so years ago, I (and many others) could have said that I know an Ice Age is coming because scientists said so. What I didn’t know at the time was what methods the scientists were using, if their data analysis was accurate, etc. Turns out they were wrong.

I don’t believe that science and religion (Christianity anyway) are mutually exclusive, nor do any of the Christians I’ve known throughout the years. The same can’t be said for some of the highly-educated people I know.

So back to what I think was the original point of the video, the logical fallacy of attempting to prove a creator. That’s correct, I can’t prove a creator using logic. Nor can I prove that George Washington existed. I do have credible evidence that he did, so I put my trust in those that say he existed. Same for the God of the Bible. There’s enough credible evidence for me that it’s accurate, so I choose to put my faith in what it says. On an aside, I was once an agnostic until I started looking at the evidence myself, but it still required a leap of faith to believe.

One observation I took away from the video was the distaste for someone trying to convince another to come to their way of thinking. What then was the point of the video? If it was made for people that already subscribe to a certain belief system –use of logic in this case – then it seems like a waste of time and effort for the person who created it. If it was to change the mind of someone that doesn’t hold these same beliefs, then that seems hypocritical.

I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind; I doubt I’ve got the power to do that. But if I’m going to be honest with myself about what I know and don’t know, I’ve got to look at the other side of the argument, weigh the evidence, and make a decision. That’s what led me to becoming a believer in the first place. All this talk about concrete evidence being required to believe something seems intellectually dishonest as there are very few things we know with absolute certainty, but we routinely put our trust (faith, if you will) in people and things based on our imperfect assessment of incomplete information. If I hold of a decision until I’ve got all the associated information, I’d never make a decision. Nor would most people.

If you’re interested in logical arguments from the Christian perspective, check out some podcasts from Ravi Zacharias. He’s far more eloquent than I.

Scott
This needs to go in every thread in GTRI, and this looks like a good place to put it.

I'm not sure, but I'm thinking maybe you are under the mistaken impression that most atheists believe there is no god or think they know there is no god. The vast majority of atheists are also agnostic, and simply lack belief in one more god then you lack belief in.

Religious Issues
__________________
Some people want freedom, even for those they disagree with, and some don't.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Quote:
...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...

Last edited by Syclone538; 06-06-2012 at 21:52..
Syclone538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 22:03   #17
ModGlock17
Senior Member
 
ModGlock17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lalaland USA
Posts: 2,626
I would never attempt to rationalize God "into existence" for another. My observations in life and my studies convinced me that it is ONLY possible to find God if you seek God.

If you don't, then I would not waste my time.

Similarly, in my engineering business, I would never waste time with an individual who has no interest in completing a job. Tired of innovations of childish reasoning. Never let people who don't "have the heart" to take your time away from people who "do have hearts!"
ModGlock17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 22:13   #18
Gunhaver
the wrong hands
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,736
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Probably a word processor to take care of spelling faux pas. This is a problem I typically have, because I tend to type quickly and off the cuff without the use of a spell checker. This particular board does not have an internal spell checker, and it tends to be the raison d'etre of Atheists to portray Theists as stupid by nit picking their grammar and spelling. Rather than subject himself to such scrutiny, I suspect he has chosen to type his response in a word processor and then paste the contents to a post.
GT does have a spell checker. That's what all those red underlines are. The only nitpicking of grammar or spelling I've seen here has come from Blast. When we want to portray theists as stupid we don't need to bring grammar or spelling up at all.
Gunhaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 22:17   #19
Gunhaver
the wrong hands
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,736
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Everybody gets to define and interpret hell however they like because it's an imaginary concept. How about commenting on the original video I posted?
Gunhaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 22:19   #20
Kingarthurhk
Isaiah 53:4-9
 
Kingarthurhk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
GT does have a spell checker. That's what all those red underlines are. The only nitpicking of grammar or spelling I've seen here has come from Blast. When we want to portray theists as stupid we don't need to bring grammar or spelling up at all.
My posts don't have a red line for spelling. I've looked for a spell checker without success. Also, for the record I have been chided by Muscogee for spelling and grammar. However, to be fair, I have been on some legally prescribed pain medicine for a rather nasty injury I received.
__________________
Glock 17, 19, 20SF, 21C, 22, 26, 27, Glock E-Tool, Glock knife
Quod ego haereticus appellari sequere Jesum.
Kingarthurhk is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 13:37.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 977
271 Members
706 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31