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Old 06-08-2012, 15:07   #1
txgunguy
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New 20sf, had a fte UPDATE

Just took it out. In the first 20 rounds I had a fail to extract. Round went off, pulled the trigger again and got a click. I was using underwood ammo 180gr fmj. I ejected the mag, and when i racked the slide, the empty case came out. The gun is stock right now. Do I need a heavier recoil spring when shooting hot ammo like this? What could cause this besides the slide moving too fast?

Update:
Had 3 FTEjects this afternoon 6/14. It only did this with 165gr ammo. Pics included in later post.
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Old 06-08-2012, 15:34   #2
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Perhaps the one round was slightly out of spec with an over-sized case. For a new gun test or before a competition, some shooters will remove the barrel and drop in every cartridge from the ammo box for a barrel check. It should drop in freely, all the way, and drop out freely when the barrel is inverted.
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Old 06-08-2012, 15:52   #3
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Perhaps the one round was slightly out of spec with an over-sized case. For a new gun test or before a competition, some shooters will remove the barrel and drop in every cartridge from the ammo box for a barrel check. It should drop in freely, all the way, and drop out freely when the barrel is inverted.
I'm thinking the round may not have had a full charge. It did not have the recoil the other rounds did. The extractor had a grip on the case, so I think the only way that round didn't extract was that it short stroked or the case was out of spec. All other rounds fed fine. Federal 10mm, Underwood 165gr gold dot, 180gr gold dot, and the 180gr tmj. This one round was the only one that did it. The case didn't seem to be out of spec so I'm leaning toward a bad charge.
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Old 06-08-2012, 16:56   #4
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Congrats on the G20.
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Old 06-08-2012, 17:19   #5
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Congrats on the G20.
Thanks but I'm not really happy about the fte lol
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Old 06-08-2012, 18:16   #6
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Sounds like a very unusual squib load to me, since you noticed a marked difference in recoil, too. You should always clear the gun, field strip, and check to make sure the barrel is not obstructed when this happens before continuing to shoot.

I would note this as most likely being a one-off anomaly and continue on with my break-in. If you don't have any more problems in the next 200-300 rds, then I'd say it was just an under-charged load and not worry about it. It might be best to try running a couple hundred rounds of some other type of ammo to be sure it's not a bad ammo lot causing the problem, as there could be more than one in there.

Congratulations on the new G20SF!
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Old 06-08-2012, 18:55   #7
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Sounds like a very unusual squib load to me, since you noticed a marked difference in recoil, too. You should always clear the gun, field strip, and check to make sure the barrel is not obstructed when this happens before continuing to shoot.

I would note this as most likely being a one-off anomaly and continue on with my break-in. If you don't have any more problems in the next 200-300 rds, then I'd say it was just an under-charged load and not worry about it. It might be best to try running a couple hundred rounds of some other type of ammo to be sure it's not a bad ammo lot causing the problem, as there could be more than one in there.

Congratulations on the new G20SF!
I did some digging and a member on the smith & wesson forum had this same thing happen with Underwood ammo. The members there seem to think the extractor slipped off the case due to the early unlocking of the gun. He explained it as the case has not finished expanding and is stuck to the chamber wall while the slide begins to move back.

I really think this is exactly what happened because I have a perfect brass marking on the OUTSIDE of the extractor. The only way that would have got there was if it came off the round because I never drop a round in the chamber.

So the case was in the chamber, the extractor slipped off, no new round was chambered, and the extractor was slammed back onto the original case in the chamber.

The guy on the S&W forum said he got a heavier recoil spring and it fixed his issues. I planned to do this anyway. It doesn't make sense to me to have the same recoil spring weight for a 9mm and full power 10mm. Evidently this can happen with hot 10mm ammo, which Underwood definitely is.
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Old 06-08-2012, 19:30   #8
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I am going to try this on my 20SF as well. What weight are you going with? I am thinking a 20 pound spring weight.
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Old 06-08-2012, 19:50   #9
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I am going to try this on my 20SF as well. What weight are you going with? I am thinking a 20 pound spring weight.
Did you have an FTE as well? I see alot of people recommending 22# springs. I may get a that for these hot Underwood loads.
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Old 06-08-2012, 20:14   #10
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Picture of the case maybe? Sounds like the slide was not imparted enough energy from the round to even get past the case length ... put the empty case right back in the chamber (i.e. light charge).

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Old 06-08-2012, 21:16   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txgunguy View Post
Did you have an FTE as well? I see alot of people recommending 22# springs. I may get a that for these hot Underwood loads.
I had a few failure to extracts.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:00   #12
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Dude!! you are overthinking this. it sounds really simple to me. most likely a dud round.

In ANY event a new gun will take a bit of shooting to get all the parts settled in and smoothed out a bit before it will run a peak efficiency. IME at least 200 rounds of good ammo thru most guns will do the trick.

personally I wont give a gun the holy trinity of awesome good to go-ness until around 500-1000 rounds and I will do what I can to induce failures so I can see where it's limits are. a man needs to know his weapon if he is gonna count on it for anything other than just playing.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:04   #13
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If a full power 10 load can push 700 fpe I'm sure it can make it's way out of the chamber.

Something else is wrong.
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Old 06-09-2012, 05:01   #14
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Killer,
I understand breaking in a new gun, but I've never had to break in a glock before. I'm going to get a heavier recoil spring and go to the range again next week. If it doesn't happen again, I'm going to attribute it to a bad round.
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Old 06-09-2012, 05:04   #15
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Picture of the case maybe? Sounds like the slide was not imparted enough energy from the round to even get past the case length ... put the empty case right back in the chamber (i.e. light charge).
This is what I thought at first. The case looks normal. The round went off but didnt recoil like normal. It was definitely loud so it was not a squib. Possibly not enough charge to cycle the slide.
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Old 06-09-2012, 05:27   #16
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Last night the SS recoil springs were on sale at glockmeister for $20. I log on this morning, and they are back to $24.
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:45   #17
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just my .02, i tried a heavier spring (a 19lb with a steel guide rod) because i was using Underwood 200 Grain, and it instantly ruined my reliability, Fail to loads mostly, Failed to ejects, stove piped a few, that was just the first 10rnds! i put the OEM plastic/15lb spring back in, and it was FLAWLESSLY functional!

I'm on the side of you may be overlooking this way too deeply, even brand new manufactures produce the occasional lemon, and i think you got 1.... before spending 40$ on another spring/rod, dump a couple more boxes down range (maybe some mood stabilizers too) and go from their my man.

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Old 06-09-2012, 07:16   #18
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just my .02, i tried a heavier spring (a 19lb with a steel guide rod) because i was using Underwood 200 Grain, and it instantly ruined my reliability, Fail to loads mostly, Failed to ejects, stove piped a few, that was just the first 10rnds! i put the OEM plastic/15lb spring back in, and it was FLAWLESSLY functional!

I'm on the side of you may be overlooking this way too deeply, even brand new manufactures produce the occasional lemon, and i think you got 1.... before spending 40$ on another spring/rod, dump a couple more boxes down range (maybe some mood stabilizers too) and go from their my man.
Thats very strange. Everything I've read, 10mm guys swear by using heavier recoil springs.
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:20   #19
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Killer,
I understand breaking in a new gun, but I've never had to break in a glock before. I'm going to get a heavier recoil spring and go to the range again next week. If it doesn't happen again, I'm going to attribute it to a bad round.
Typically in the 10mm glocks, NOTHING is gonna be as reliable as the stock rsa.
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:45   #20
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Thats very strange. Everything I've read, 10mm guys swear by using heavier recoil springs.
In this case I am stumped why you would think that making it MORE difficult to extract or SLOWING the extraction down would be a solution to a failure to extract?

Heavier springs are used to increase the time it takes to extract and eject the case when very heavy loads are used. the main drawback to using a lighter spring is that the frame gets battered when you are using loads over SAAMI spec pressures consistently.

Factory recoil spring and guide actually have a lot of advantages IMO, so unless you are flinging brass into the next county or seeing the frame get damaged at the front contact area, then the spring is NOT your issue.
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:49   #21
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Killer,
I understand breaking in a new gun, but I've never had to break in a glock before. I'm going to get a heavier recoil spring and go to the range again next week. If it doesn't happen again, I'm going to attribute it to a bad round.
newer glocks and in fact MOST new guns are made with different manufacturing processes that make them modular. this modularity means that they all undergo some break-in during the first few rounds. You may not have thought you were breaking in a glock before but you were in fact doing so just by shooting. just because you didnt have issues didnt mean it wasnt happening.

I seriously doubt there is anything wrong with your gun, just clena it up and lube it then go back to shooting it. this is not a full fledged internet emergency... you had a dud.

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Old 06-09-2012, 09:11   #22
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I'm thinking the round may not have had a full charge. It did not have the recoil the other rounds did. The extractor had a grip on the case, so I think I'm leaning toward a bad charge.
Would not give it a second thought, you answered your own question. If it felt different, it was. If it felt under charged, it was. It happens!

If you have a good reliable scale, weigh a magazine full, and shoot them. If everything runs as supposed to, keep weighing until you find one that is 5+ grains lighter than the others. Then shoot the lighter ones and see if they run. From that point on, weigh each and every round in a box, and mark the lighter weighing ones with a black felt tip on the primer. Make sure to shoot them at the range, so if there is a mishap again, you'll know the culprit. This should instill the confidence back in your G20, and your choice of ammo.
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:25   #23
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I did some digging and a member on the smith & wesson forum had this same thing happen with Underwood ammo. The members there seem to think the extractor slipped off the case due to the early unlocking of the gun. He explained it as the case has not finished expanding and is stuck to the chamber wall while the slide begins to move back.

I really think this is exactly what happened because I have a perfect brass marking on the OUTSIDE of the extractor. The only way that would have got there was if it came off the round because I never drop a round in the chamber.

So the case was in the chamber, the extractor slipped off, no new round was chambered, and the extractor was slammed back onto the original case in the chamber.

The guy on the S&W forum said he got a heavier recoil spring and it fixed his issues. I planned to do this anyway. It doesn't make sense to me to have the same recoil spring weight for a 9mm and full power 10mm. Evidently this can happen with hot 10mm ammo, which Underwood definitely is.
I think you may be correct on the extractor slipping over the brass rim. We were just discussing this phenomenon over on the 10mm reloading forum. Check out the last 8-10 posts on this thread:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1404729

I shoot a Wolff uncaptured 22# spring and rod guide in my G20 (you can get them as a set for under $30) with everything including my .40 S&W conversion barrel, and it's 100% reliable. I even CCW my G20 with this spring and guide rod. For me, there are really only 2 minor downsides to running the heavier spring, harder to rack the slide (could be a difference maker in a gunfight if you are wounded) and the recoil impulse is slightly higher. Competition shooters also claim it slows down quick follow-up shots, which I do believe it probably does if you're shooting the way they do, but I don't. I thought the whole point of shooting the 10mm is that you don't need no steenking follow-up shot!

One other thing to consider if you are worried about spending the $30 on the spring and guide rod is there could be a problem with your extractor and/or your extractor spring. Take a look at my avatar pic. That's my trigger safety from my G20 after appx. 250 rounds. Obviously a defective plating process from the factory, and Glock wouldn't send me a new one (said they could only have a certified Glock armorer do the swap, which would have cost me more in gas to get to one than the part was worth, so I bought and replaced it myself). I'm guessing that, like every manufacturer these days, they are sub-contracting some of their small parts and springs out to other vendors to save money. It's possible that your extractor spring is bad from the factory, or that your extractor has a defect such that it's not properly grabbing the rim of the brass. You may want to check on that first.

Honestly though, when you get this ironed out, I think you will be impressed with the G20. It's an incredible platform for the 10mm. Good luck and be safe!
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:47   #24
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Is this still ONE FTE, or do you have a trend of FTE's?
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Old 06-09-2012, 12:55   #25
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Sounds like a fluke to me.

The only thing the stock RSA did for me was batter the frame a tad and made the brass fly out of sight and allow the pistol to unlock a tad faster than I like. Seems to be a Glock trait judging by the smeared primers seen laying around everywhere in once shot brass.

Put in a 22# spring and SS guide rod and all is well. No battering, No brass flying out of sight and nice clean primer strikes. Also shoot a 5.15" LW Barrel. Chambers and extracts great! Don't need no sloppy $2.00 whore loose chamber in my otherwise wonderful pistol.

The only way I could see a extractor slipping off the brass would be if the hot load bulged the brass a hair thus pushing the brass up and back a tad causing the extractor to have a slam grab on the edge of the brass.

Just shoot the crap out of it and move on.
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