GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-30-2012, 20:20   #1
Coffee Dog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 534
How potent is Corbon's 9mm-115+P???

I have a Glock 19 and was considering buying a couple
boxes of Corbon's 9mm- 115+P for home defense!

Does any shooter on Glock Talk have any experience with this round? And how is this round's street record?
Coffee Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2012, 21:36   #2
Tiro Fijo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,103
Very. As well, Corbon is making their own 'in house' bullet for it now (no more Sierras) that gets better penetration but still retains the same violent expansion. I would carry this round anywhere with complete & utter confidence.
Tiro Fijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2012, 23:32   #3
9mm +p+
Senior Member
 
9mm +p+'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: KS
Posts: 2,419
If you want street cred, cheaper than dirt has Federal 9BPLE 115 for $17.49 a box, it has decades of use behind it.
__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum
9mm +p+ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 05:16   #4
Deputydave
Senior Member
 
Deputydave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Very. As well, Corbon is making their own 'in house' bullet for it now (no more Sierras) that gets better penetration but still retains the same violent expansion. I would carry this round anywhere with complete & utter confidence.
I didn't know this change had been made, but glad they made it. We tested the Corbon 115 +P w/Sierras years ago (probably late 90's). The expansion was without a doubt fantastic. Penetration wasn't always ideal though as the jacket often shed off. Don't ever remember one failing to open though, even through very thick clothing.

I was very impressed with the +P+ rounds using the GD bullet. Though not generally a fan of the light-for-caliber rounds these days, the +P+ GD opened up like a starfish and still got pretty damn good penetration. Don't quote me, but I want to say around the 12-14 inch mark.

What type of round is Corbon using now?

Last edited by Deputydave; 07-01-2012 at 05:17..
Deputydave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 07:32   #5
ABNAK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
What type of round is Corbon using now?

They had trouble getting Sierra's so they now manufacture their own Sierra-like, old fashioned cup-and-core JHP's.

They wanted to duplicate the terminal ballistics of the Sierra bullets and roll their own with that in mind.
__________________
"...there's a man with a gun over there, tellin' me I got to beware..."

11C2P '83-'87
ABNAK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 07:39   #6
Deputydave
Senior Member
 
Deputydave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
They had trouble getting Sierra's so they now manufacture their own Sierra-like, old fashioned cup-and-core JHP's.

They wanted to duplicate the terminal ballistics of the Sierra bullets and roll their own with that in mind.
Thank you. IIRC, the Sierra/Corbon got about 9 inches or so of penetration. I'm assuming these would be about the same?

Like I mentioned, great expanders but would like a few more inches of penetration. On second thought....that sounds a little pornographic

Last edited by Deputydave; 07-01-2012 at 07:40..
Deputydave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 07:46   #7
Coffee Dog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 534
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
Thank you. IIRC, the Sierra/Corbon got about 9 inches or so of penetration. I'm assuming these would be about the same?

Like I mentioned, great expanders but would like a few more inches of penetration. On second thought....that sounds a little pornographic
Thank-you for your post!
I have a Gov't job where I see a much higher percent of people becoming obese (350+ pounds) and I am seriously wondering if 9 inches of penetration would be enough?
Anybody have any insight on this?

Last edited by Coffee Dog; 07-01-2012 at 07:47..
Coffee Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 08:02   #8
Coffee Dog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 534
Here's an interesting demonstration video on Corbon's jhp ammo!

Coffee Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 08:05   #9
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,807


Quote:
Originally Posted by 229 Eagle View Post
Thank-you for your post!
I have a Gov't job where I see a much higher percent of people becoming obese (350+ pounds) and I am seriously wondering if 9 inches of penetration would be enough?
Anybody have any insight on this?
The Trooper Coates shooting.


The killer, Richard Blackburn, took hits from Coates' .357 revolver which apparently did not penetrate enough. Blackburn is/was a large man. I am not sure to this date what load Coates had in his revolver, or what was issued/mandated by the South Carolina Highway Patrol at the time.

South Carolina now carries Glock 37's.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS

Last edited by 4949shooter; 07-01-2012 at 08:06..
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 08:07   #10
Deputydave
Senior Member
 
Deputydave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by 229 Eagle View Post
Thank-you for your post!
I have a Gov't job where I see a much higher percent of people becoming obese (350+ pounds) and I am seriously wondering if 9 inches of penetration would be enough?
Anybody have any insight on this?
Here is something to consider: on an unobstructed, frontal, upper torso shot, 9 inches of penetration would reach most vitals. However, speaking from a L.E. perspective, obstructions such as a limb are the norm and not the exception. For example, a person is coming at you for an attack, their arms are probably going to be up and in front of their body (holding a gun, knife, broken bottle etc) over their COM. That is extra depth that needs to be taken into account. Additionally, a cross-torso shot will add considerable depth to the shot in terms of reaching vitals whether through the limb or shoulder. And of course any other type of obstruction such as a wall, door etc. Just some things to think about.

Last edited by Deputydave; 07-01-2012 at 08:09..
Deputydave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 08:21   #11
Merkavaboy
Code-7A KUZ769
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In The State Of Fruitloops (CA)
Posts: 5,305
Corbon specifically designed their 115JHP+P to duplicate Federal's and Winchester's 115+P+ loads in a civilian package. And that's exactly what they got.
__________________
"I spent the last two years of high school in a daze....attended classes sparingly, drank beer heavily, and tried drugs enthusiastically."
Barack Obama
One Bad Ass Mistake America
Merkavaboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 09:21   #12
ABNAK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
Thank you. IIRC, the Sierra/Corbon got about 9 inches or so of penetration. I'm assuming these would be about the same?

There's a guy on here who works for Cor Bon (can't remember his name). He emailed me that the expansion/fragmentation should be about the same so I'd venture to guess the penetration should close too. I only asked about the expansion part and am surmising here.

I have some in 125gr 357Sig and 165gr .40, but haven't tested them (yet).
__________________
"...there's a man with a gun over there, tellin' me I got to beware..."

11C2P '83-'87

Last edited by ABNAK; 07-01-2012 at 09:22..
ABNAK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 09:42   #13
Coffee Dog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 534
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
Here is something to consider: on an unobstructed, frontal, upper torso shot, 9 inches of penetration would reach most vitals. However, speaking from a L.E. perspective, obstructions such as a limb are the norm and not the exception. For example, a person is coming at you for an attack, their arms are probably going to be up and in front of their body (holding a gun, knife, broken bottle etc) over their COM. That is extra depth that needs to be taken into account. Additionally, a cross-torso shot will add considerable depth to the shot in terms of reaching vitals whether through the limb or shoulder. And of course any other type of obstruction such as a wall, door etc. Just some things to think about.
Being a former Marine MP I have a high desire to survive any
possible lethal encounters> Thank-you for your insight because I am not going to gamble my life or family's lives that the intruder will not extend their arms extra and all I need is 9 inches! I am considering Gold Dot's 124+p which gives aprox. 12 to 13 inches of penertration.
This added measure of penertration helps eliminate
an arm, etc getting in the path of your target!
Thank-you for your experience!
Semper Fi Till The Day I Die!

Last edited by Coffee Dog; 07-01-2012 at 09:43..
Coffee Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 09:47   #14
Coffee Dog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 534
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
The Trooper Coates shooting.

Volume 1 Program 4 Preview Trooper Coates Murder - YouTube

The killer, Richard Blackburn, took hits from Coates' .357 revolver which apparently did not penetrate enough. Blackburn is/was a large man. I am not sure to this date what load Coates had in his revolver, or what was issued/mandated by the South Carolina Highway Patrol at the time.

South Carolina now carries Glock 37's.
Thank-you also Sir for allowing me to see bettween the lines-
that 9 inches just might not be enough penertration!
Thank-you for your service!


P.S. I have a Sig 229 with a .357sig barrel & Corbon's .357sig-125gr. jhp

Last edited by Coffee Dog; 07-01-2012 at 09:49..
Coffee Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 09:48   #15
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,807


Quote:
Originally Posted by 229 Eagle View Post
Thank-you also Sir for allowing me to see bettween the lines-
that 9 inches just might not be enough penertration!
Thank-you for your service!
You are most welcome, Sir.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 10:08   #16
Deputydave
Senior Member
 
Deputydave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
There's a guy on here who works for Cor Bon (can't remember his name). He emailed me that the expansion/fragmentation should be about the same so I'd venture to guess the penetration should close too. I only asked about the expansion part and am surmising here.

I have some in 125gr 357Sig and 165gr .40, but haven't tested them (yet).
Thank you. I would think that both those rounds would do very well on both expansion and penetration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 229 Eagle
Thank-you for your insight because I am not going to gamble my life or family's lives that the intruder will not extend their arms extra and all I need is 9 inches! I am considering Gold Dot's 124+p which gives aprox. 12 to 13 inches of penertration.
This added measure of penertration helps eliminate
an arm, etc getting in the path of your target!
Thank-you for your experience!
You're very welcome. As a side note, prior to switching to the .45ACP (in a G21), our agency used the 124+P GD (in a Beretta). It did very well in numerous shootings. I don't ever recall of one failing to expand in a shooting and in fact have been one of the Deputies at the hospital taking chain-of-evidence custody of rounds taken out of the badguy in surgery. They had all expanded very well. Of the few 'shoot-throughs' we had where a round exited the body, the spent rounds were found within the clothing on the exit wound side of the body or on the ground a few feet away from the body. It is an exceptional round and balls-on accurate.
Deputydave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 13:44   #17
Tiro Fijo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,103
Per usual, I see we have the 12" fanatics here that seem to forget that Fed. BPLE and Winchester RA9115HP+ worked for years w/o problems. The 12" figure is meaningless. It is an abritary figure dreamed up by the FBI. Period.

FWIW, I believe Trooper Coates was using 140 gr. Win. Silvertips of an earlier generation.
Tiro Fijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 14:35   #18
Deputydave
Senior Member
 
Deputydave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Per usual, I see we have the 12" fanatics here that seem to forget that Fed. BPLE and Winchester RA9115HP+ worked for years w/o problems. The 12" figure is meaningless. It is an abritary figure dreamed up by the FBI. Period.

FWIW, I believe Trooper Coates was using 140 gr. Win. Silvertips of an earlier generation.
I don't think 'fanatic' is the best label. The FBI established this as a benchmark based on many critieria. It is a viable measure. Our agency used the 115 prior to the 124+P GD's in the very early 90's. Success varied pretty widely. IIRC, the round was one of Remingtons. Another smaller agency in the area also used 115 as well. I remember taking custody of a prisoner they had shot 12 times, 6 upper arm and 6 upper/lower leg (subject was bladed to them at the time of the shooting). The bone in the upper arm, the upper leg and calf were shattered. The subject was immobilized (i.e. fell down and couldn't stand up) which ended the attack (butcher knife). However, none of the rounds exited the limbs to enter the torso. Had the subject had a firearm instead of the knife, he could have continued to fire.

I mention this to illustrate that we will not always get the perfect, unobstructed upper torso shot. Too be honest, you probably won't due to many factors. 12 inches was settled on as a benchmark to allow for penetration through a limb and still reach vitals without over-penetration on an unobstructed shot. It isn't magic, nor do I think many tout it as such. Have 115's/+P/+P+ stopped attackers? Yes they have. Have they also failed? Yes they have. Is under-penetration a factor in some/many of those shootings? Yes. Would a few more inches of penetration made a difference in those shootings? I don't know, but it probably wouldn't have made the BG feel better.

A way to look at things like this is as follows; a life/death situation which requires you to use deadly force is going to put all sorts of stressors on you, both mental and physical. All sorts of negative things could be against you; injury, adrenaline dump, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion etc. A lot of these factors are just beyond our control. So to me, it makes sense to stack the deck, as much as possible, in our favor ahead of time. Would I refuse to use a 115 (+P/+P+)? Of course not. Any port in a storm so-to-speak. But if I can load with a round that penetrates a bit deeper as a choice, that is preferable.

Also keep in mind that some rounds, like the 115+P+ GD penetrate IIRC around 11-12 inches give or take.
Deputydave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 18:04   #19
WinterWizard
Senior Member
 
WinterWizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,297
Penetration is the most important factor in ballistics. Period. I'd rather have ball ammo than something that only penetrates 8-9 inches. 12 inches in bare gel is minimum. 15 inches is better. Remember that 9 inches is under ideal conditions. It doesn't take into consideration barriers, like metal, wood, limbs, bone, etc. 9 inches is weak.

Last edited by WinterWizard; 07-01-2012 at 18:04..
WinterWizard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 18:50   #20
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,408
12-18" wasn't just a number someone pulled out of their a**.

And ask the military how effective 9mm ball is.
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 19:47   #21
Merkavaboy
Code-7A KUZ769
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In The State Of Fruitloops (CA)
Posts: 5,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Per usual, I see we have the 12" fanatics here that seem to forget that Fed. BPLE and Winchester RA9115HP+ worked for years w/o problems. The 12" figure is meaningless. It is an abritary figure dreamed up by the FBI. Period.

FWIW, I believe Trooper Coates was using 140 gr. Win. Silvertips of an earlier generation.
Tiro, once again people fail to understand that penetration is NOT the be-all-end-all of SD handgun ammunition. If it were then everybody would be using FMJ/solid bullets. Period.

People also fail (refuse?) to understand that the 9mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP loads were (and continue to be) the best street proven street stoppers long before the 40S&W and 357Sig ever existed and long before bullets like Golden Sabers and HST were ever designed.

In ballistic jello both the 9/115+P+ and 357/125 fail to meet the FBI/IWBA minimum of 12"-18" depth. Absolutely documented and street proven loads that were completely ignored by the FBI during their ballistic testing after the '86 Miami incident. (The 9/115+P+ was even scored as a ZERO in their testing; how obtuse is that?).

Now look at the 9mm load that the FBI did pick to replace their duty ammo, the Win 147JHP OSM subsonic load. This load (unlike the 9/115+P+) racked up a history of erratic expansion and deadly excessive overpenetration with subsequent poor stopping ability.

The FBI's acceptance and issuance of the OSM load was made based on a worse case scenario where deep(er) and barrier penetration may be required at the exclusion of all other scenarios in which deep and/or barrier penetration is not the norm.

The death of Trooper Coates is extremely tragic and it was not the failure of his ammo that led to his death. By turning away from his threat he exposed his left side where his ballistic panel didn't cover. If he had retreated while still facing forward towards his attacker, that one single .22 bullet would most likely hit his vest rather than his exposed unprotected side.

If you watch the video of the Ohio Trooper shootout with the Kehoe brothers you will see the proper way to back pedal while still facing the attacker and returning fire while taking full advantage of one's body armor.

Proper training and proper use of tactics goes a long way in keeping one alive. Unfortunately proper tactics were not employed on April 11, 1986 and FBI agents were murdered and crippled because of it. One single Win 115STHP was NOT at fault and the FBI had to find a scapegoat to blame.
__________________
"I spent the last two years of high school in a daze....attended classes sparingly, drank beer heavily, and tried drugs enthusiastically."
Barack Obama
One Bad Ass Mistake America

Last edited by Merkavaboy; 07-01-2012 at 19:49..
Merkavaboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 20:05   #22
Merkavaboy
Code-7A KUZ769
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In The State Of Fruitloops (CA)
Posts: 5,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
12-18" wasn't just a number someone pulled out of their a**.

And ask the military how effective 9mm ball is.
One cannot simply compare the military to civilian LE and armed citizens, they are two completely ROE's. 9mm FMJ/SP/solids are dismal failures when deployed by LE/civilians. Years ago ISP was involved in a OIS in which the BG took 33 hits with the old W-W 100JSP "Power Point", including hits to the head/face (he was completely blinded by those shots and was still trying to reload when he was finally taken down by a 2nd 12GA slug, and all the 9mm bullets had completely penetrated his body).

In military combat the troops can care less if their 9mm bullets completely penetrate their attackers. With LE/civilians, its an almost absolute necessity that those bullets that strike an attacker not exit and become a threat to others down range.
__________________
"I spent the last two years of high school in a daze....attended classes sparingly, drank beer heavily, and tried drugs enthusiastically."
Barack Obama
One Bad Ass Mistake America

Last edited by Merkavaboy; 07-01-2012 at 20:07..
Merkavaboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 20:05   #23
Deputydave
Senior Member
 
Deputydave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
People also fail (refuse?) to understand that the 9mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP loads were (and continue to be) the best street proven street stoppers long before the 40S&W and 357Sig ever existed and long before bullets like Golden Sabers and HST were ever designed.
May I ask where you are coming up with these statistics?
Deputydave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 20:16   #24
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,807


Merkava, I agree with a lot of what you said. Almost all of it, in fact. I also agree that Trooper Coates took a .22 round through the armpit of his vest, and this tragic event possibly could have been prevented.

But also, Blackburn took 5 .357 magnum hits to COM. This tells me the ammo didn't do the job that day.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-troo...-hunter-coates

As pointed out, the Silvertip 145 grain didn't do the job.

Personally, I believe we need adequate penetration along with expansion. I agree with you, in that expansion is extremely important given enough penetration.

If we had a crystal ball, we could pick the right ammo for the shooting scenerio will will run into before we go to work. Today I will pick 230 grain HST in .45 because I know I will have to shoot through Platt's bicep (FBI Miami shooting). On another day I will be shooting COM into the Miami flesh eater so I will pick a .357 Sig 125 grain at 1350, or the vaunted Federal 125 grain .357mag round. I could also break out the 12 gauge because I know I will only get one shot, or whatever.

As I said in the other thread, I am a strong proponent of going along with what is proven, or sticking close to what is proven. This is why I recommended the .357 Sig to my agency for duty use. The .40 cal 165 grainers have reportedly been faring well in shootings also.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS

Last edited by 4949shooter; 07-01-2012 at 20:18..
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 22:54   #25
Merkavaboy
Code-7A KUZ769
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In The State Of Fruitloops (CA)
Posts: 5,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
May I ask where you are coming up with these statistics?
Have you ever heard of reading and research? Thats what i have been doing for nearly 40 years now regarding ammunition and LE/civilian SD issues. Here, let me post something fairly current for your consumption:

"For many years, the “Illinois State Police load” – a 115-grain standard JHP launched at some 1,300 feet per second (fps) – proved itself to be the most decisive man-stopper available. It still works great. Federal’s version of this load, the 9BPLE, is standard issue for the DeKalb County lawmen, on the tough turf that surrounds and encompasses of Atlanta, Georgia.
These guys get into so many firefights that they’ve drawn political heat for “shooting too many people.” They have proven that when they shoot people with a 115-grain JHP doing 1,300 fps out of their issue Beretta service pistols, the bad guys go down and stop trying to kill them."

One cartridge stands above all others in this caliber in the history of American law enforcement: the 125-grain semi-jacketed hollow point loaded to a velocity in the 1,400 fps range (from a 4-inch barrel). Some experts argue whether the wide-mouthed Federal version of this load, or the scallop-jacket Remington version that originally popularized the 125-grain .357 among cops, is the single best of the breed.
It seems to be an argument akin to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The Winchester 125-grain Magnum load does not have either of those features, but worked every bit as well for such departments as the Maine State Police when they carried .357 revolvers.
When departments such as City of Indianapolis Police Department, and the state troopers of Kentucky and Indiana issued that load, there were literally tons of bad guys shot with 125-grain Magnums, and they tended to go down “right now.” Texas Department of Public Safety personnel were known to refer to this round’s “lightning bolt effect,” and I knew Kentucky troopers who called it “the magic bullet".


http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...om-the-street/

If you're still in doubt, go to the Gate SD forum and ask Mas Ayoob directly. He's been studying, researching and reporting on such topics for decades. He had Carte Blanche access to ISP's OIS incidents thanks to ISP's FOP. Still don't believe the worthiness of the 9mm 115JHP+P+, drop a PM/email to isp2605 and ask him about his dept's use of this round and it's effectiveness as a LE load.
__________________
"I spent the last two years of high school in a daze....attended classes sparingly, drank beer heavily, and tried drugs enthusiastically."
Barack Obama
One Bad Ass Mistake America
Merkavaboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:59.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,320
336 Members
984 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42