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Old 07-01-2012, 19:47   #21
Merkavaboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Per usual, I see we have the 12" fanatics here that seem to forget that Fed. BPLE and Winchester RA9115HP+ worked for years w/o problems. The 12" figure is meaningless. It is an abritary figure dreamed up by the FBI. Period.

FWIW, I believe Trooper Coates was using 140 gr. Win. Silvertips of an earlier generation.
Tiro, once again people fail to understand that penetration is NOT the be-all-end-all of SD handgun ammunition. If it were then everybody would be using FMJ/solid bullets. Period.

People also fail (refuse?) to understand that the 9mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP loads were (and continue to be) the best street proven street stoppers long before the 40S&W and 357Sig ever existed and long before bullets like Golden Sabers and HST were ever designed.

In ballistic jello both the 9/115+P+ and 357/125 fail to meet the FBI/IWBA minimum of 12"-18" depth. Absolutely documented and street proven loads that were completely ignored by the FBI during their ballistic testing after the '86 Miami incident. (The 9/115+P+ was even scored as a ZERO in their testing; how obtuse is that?).

Now look at the 9mm load that the FBI did pick to replace their duty ammo, the Win 147JHP OSM subsonic load. This load (unlike the 9/115+P+) racked up a history of erratic expansion and deadly excessive overpenetration with subsequent poor stopping ability.

The FBI's acceptance and issuance of the OSM load was made based on a worse case scenario where deep(er) and barrier penetration may be required at the exclusion of all other scenarios in which deep and/or barrier penetration is not the norm.

The death of Trooper Coates is extremely tragic and it was not the failure of his ammo that led to his death. By turning away from his threat he exposed his left side where his ballistic panel didn't cover. If he had retreated while still facing forward towards his attacker, that one single .22 bullet would most likely hit his vest rather than his exposed unprotected side.

If you watch the video of the Ohio Trooper shootout with the Kehoe brothers you will see the proper way to back pedal while still facing the attacker and returning fire while taking full advantage of one's body armor.

Proper training and proper use of tactics goes a long way in keeping one alive. Unfortunately proper tactics were not employed on April 11, 1986 and FBI agents were murdered and crippled because of it. One single Win 115STHP was NOT at fault and the FBI had to find a scapegoat to blame.
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Old 07-01-2012, 20:05   #22
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Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
12-18" wasn't just a number someone pulled out of their a**.

And ask the military how effective 9mm ball is.
One cannot simply compare the military to civilian LE and armed citizens, they are two completely ROE's. 9mm FMJ/SP/solids are dismal failures when deployed by LE/civilians. Years ago ISP was involved in a OIS in which the BG took 33 hits with the old W-W 100JSP "Power Point", including hits to the head/face (he was completely blinded by those shots and was still trying to reload when he was finally taken down by a 2nd 12GA slug, and all the 9mm bullets had completely penetrated his body).

In military combat the troops can care less if their 9mm bullets completely penetrate their attackers. With LE/civilians, its an almost absolute necessity that those bullets that strike an attacker not exit and become a threat to others down range.
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Old 07-01-2012, 20:05   #23
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
People also fail (refuse?) to understand that the 9mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP loads were (and continue to be) the best street proven street stoppers long before the 40S&W and 357Sig ever existed and long before bullets like Golden Sabers and HST were ever designed.
May I ask where you are coming up with these statistics?
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Old 07-01-2012, 20:16   #24
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Merkava, I agree with a lot of what you said. Almost all of it, in fact. I also agree that Trooper Coates took a .22 round through the armpit of his vest, and this tragic event possibly could have been prevented.

But also, Blackburn took 5 .357 magnum hits to COM. This tells me the ammo didn't do the job that day.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-troo...-hunter-coates

As pointed out, the Silvertip 145 grain didn't do the job.

Personally, I believe we need adequate penetration along with expansion. I agree with you, in that expansion is extremely important given enough penetration.

If we had a crystal ball, we could pick the right ammo for the shooting scenerio will will run into before we go to work. Today I will pick 230 grain HST in .45 because I know I will have to shoot through Platt's bicep (FBI Miami shooting). On another day I will be shooting COM into the Miami flesh eater so I will pick a .357 Sig 125 grain at 1350, or the vaunted Federal 125 grain .357mag round. I could also break out the 12 gauge because I know I will only get one shot, or whatever.

As I said in the other thread, I am a strong proponent of going along with what is proven, or sticking close to what is proven. This is why I recommended the .357 Sig to my agency for duty use. The .40 cal 165 grainers have reportedly been faring well in shootings also.
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Old 07-01-2012, 22:54   #25
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Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
May I ask where you are coming up with these statistics?
Have you ever heard of reading and research? Thats what i have been doing for nearly 40 years now regarding ammunition and LE/civilian SD issues. Here, let me post something fairly current for your consumption:

"For many years, the “Illinois State Police load” – a 115-grain standard JHP launched at some 1,300 feet per second (fps) – proved itself to be the most decisive man-stopper available. It still works great. Federal’s version of this load, the 9BPLE, is standard issue for the DeKalb County lawmen, on the tough turf that surrounds and encompasses of Atlanta, Georgia.
These guys get into so many firefights that they’ve drawn political heat for “shooting too many people.” They have proven that when they shoot people with a 115-grain JHP doing 1,300 fps out of their issue Beretta service pistols, the bad guys go down and stop trying to kill them."

One cartridge stands above all others in this caliber in the history of American law enforcement: the 125-grain semi-jacketed hollow point loaded to a velocity in the 1,400 fps range (from a 4-inch barrel). Some experts argue whether the wide-mouthed Federal version of this load, or the scallop-jacket Remington version that originally popularized the 125-grain .357 among cops, is the single best of the breed.
It seems to be an argument akin to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The Winchester 125-grain Magnum load does not have either of those features, but worked every bit as well for such departments as the Maine State Police when they carried .357 revolvers.
When departments such as City of Indianapolis Police Department, and the state troopers of Kentucky and Indiana issued that load, there were literally tons of bad guys shot with 125-grain Magnums, and they tended to go down “right now.” Texas Department of Public Safety personnel were known to refer to this round’s “lightning bolt effect,” and I knew Kentucky troopers who called it “the magic bullet".


http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...om-the-street/

If you're still in doubt, go to the Gate SD forum and ask Mas Ayoob directly. He's been studying, researching and reporting on such topics for decades. He had Carte Blanche access to ISP's OIS incidents thanks to ISP's FOP. Still don't believe the worthiness of the 9mm 115JHP+P+, drop a PM/email to isp2605 and ask him about his dept's use of this round and it's effectiveness as a LE load.
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Old 07-01-2012, 23:14   #26
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4949shooter, we all know that there are horror stories of people taking multiple handgun bullets and failing to stop: the Skoakie IL officer who shot his attacker 17 times with 45/230GDHP's, the officer who shot a would-be murderer at nearly point-blank range COM with 40/180 Hydra-Shoks (3 shots rapid succession didn't even phase the attacker so he shot 3 more rounds, with 3 bullets exiting the attacker and one failing to even expand), and even an incident in a city not 15 miles away from me involving an old woman armed with a shotgun who was hit by a 3-round burst from an MP5 COM and not going down).

Stuff happens, but as we learn from the past (with some of the lessons written in blood) some bullets work better than others, and some working tremendously better than others.
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Old 07-01-2012, 23:49   #27
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I'm not big on the 9mm or Corbon ammo. With that said, if I had to carry a 9mm this round would be on my very short list of carry ammo but not in a full size gun. I would choose this round only for a short barrel auto.

I feel it has too little penetration out of the longer barrel length (Due to it's violent expansion at the higher velocity.) I assume that it would do better from a short barrel.

I still prefer Gold Dot's and Ranger T-Series in a heavier bullet weight!
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Old 07-02-2012, 00:59   #28
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Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
...The FBI established this as a benchmark based on many critieria. It is a viable measure...

This is the same FBI that used the flawed Computer Man that gave them the flawed 147 gr. HP and conveniently overlooked a literal ton of good shoots by the Boder Patrol using BPLE. The same FBI that botched thousands of lab specimens in the past. It's a Gov't agency and anyone having worked for one knows they are full of dead timber and many merely flying the "brown bomber" to get to a pension. They are not infallible & to be frank are rarely involved in shootouts. They are still mainly accountants. The days of Jelly Bryce are long gone.

ATF's Fast & Furious is a superb example of Gov't bureacracy. It's over a year and we still don't know who officially ordered it.

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...Also keep in mind that some rounds, like the 115+P+ GD penetrate IIRC around 11-12 inches give or take...

It's an excellent round.
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Old 07-02-2012, 06:37   #29
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Have you ever heard of reading and research?
Why do you have the attitude? I asked a legitimate question and I'm getting a Jr. High School snarky response. It isn't appreciated.

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Thats what i have been doing for nearly 40 years now regarding ammunition and LE/civilian SD issues.
I can appreciate your interest in research, but the quality of the material you're researching will affect the validity of your conclusion. Based upon your comments, I suspected Mas as a possible source. I figured it was either him or Marshal.

To begin with, I like some of Mas's work. His 'Cute Lawyer Tricks' should be mandatory academy training. Some of his work with ammunition is fine, some of it is not. I'm not going to go into a lengthy dissertation here as to the accuracy of some of his 'reports'. Others have done that in detail.

Reply to Massad Ayoob's Kooky Screed

Again, some of his stuff is fine, quite a bit is not. He was/is a big proponent of the OSS mantra. I find it difficult in this day and age to believe people still follow the OSS line, some taking it as gospel. This may piss off a lot of people that still think OSS is a valid piece of data. But it isn't. Again, volumes have been written to debunk it. It isn't science as it doesn't fit the definition of science i.e. it isn't testable or repeatable for each shooting in-and-of-itself using the same exact environment from each shooting.

If you've read this far, let me state it another way for those serious about wanting to know fact from fiction. OSS, and a lot of what Mas puts forth, was based on several UNREALISTIC criteria. For example, and this is the part many people don't know about or choose to ignore; these shootings were allegedly all UNOBSTRUCTED FRONTAL UPPER TORSO SHOTS. That is a major point. Many times, and I mentioned just one above in another post, a 115 does NOT have the sectional density to penetrate through an obstacle i.e. a limb or barrier, and still reach a vital/CNS. You cannot catalog an alleged unobstructed upper torso shot and then state it has a 'street record' of such-n-such %. That is intellectual dishonesty. You can state that in that shootings that meet your exact criteria a certain round performed X% of the time. But that is meaningless as far as a total street record.

Multiple shootings were discarded to reach a % number within this artificial criteria. At one time, the Corbon 115 had something like 32 shootings and a 93% OSS record. How many shootings were discarded because they didn't meet the criteria? Why were many of the alleged sources not reported? Police shootings are public record after the investigation is complete. Yet in many instances, many things never 'added up' i.e. mis-reporting the actual facts of a shooting. But lets use the 32 shootings above. What if there were actually 73 shootings total, but the other 39 did not meet the artificially induced criteria i.e they were obstructed shots (which the majority of shootings are). Lets say that in those 39 shootings there was a failure to stop i.e. the round did not penetrate deep enough to hit a vital/CNS. This dramatically affects this 93% number!

It doesn't mean the 115 is useless. Doesn't mean it bounces off bad guys. But it does mean you're going to have to hope for an unobstructed upper torso shot in order to get the best benefit from this round. Yes, it is possible for it to go through a limb and still reach a vital....but it is NOT as likely as a 124 or 147 due to sectional density. And remember, adding the +P or +P+ is only going to DECREASE penetration on many rounds.

Does anyone want to bet their life on getting an unobstructed upper torso shot? Seriously!

Also, the artificial criteria of OSS dictated the bad guy did not go past 10 feet before falling down. But falling down within an artificially circle is not the same as being incapacitated. A bad guy on the ground that is conscious can still return fire.

Maybe OSS and Mas are still getting a lot of play in gun magazines? I hope not. Stating that the 115 9mm and the 124 .357mag have the best 'street record' based upon Mas and/or OSS is misleading, irresponsible and flat out incorrect. Not looking to bust your chops, not looking for a flame war. But that type of statement is unsupported and wrong.

I've been in five deadly force incidents. I've researched the science and the psuedo-science. I've been in surgery taking custody of rounds taken out of bad guys. I've interviewed shooting victims in the hospital and jail and read the reports from those in the morgue. I've tested more rounds than I can remember. The 9mm 115 is NOT the best choice, does NOT have the best street record, and has FAILED more times than I can count due to lack of penetration.

If anyone reading this thread is on the fence, I encourage you to read Mas's offering and the OSS (one-stop-shot) material. Then read the material explaining in greater detail why it isn't reliable and explaining the testing that is reliable and the vast majority of agencies follow. This way you can make an informed decision for yourself. Do NOT get your gun info from magazines or gun boards. Don't even take what I say as gospel until you check it out for yourselves with an open mind and some common sense.

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Old 07-02-2012, 06:45   #30
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
This is the same FBI that used the flawed Computer Man that gave them the flawed 147 gr. HP...
Your lumping in different eras of research and testing that spanned 20+ years. Your premise isn't valid.

The 115+P+ GD is an excellent round because it is bonded, therefore it doesn't shed it's jacket, therefore it penetrates deeper than an un-bonded round.

As I've said many times, expansion is the icing on the cake but penetration IS the cake. A round that expands less but hits a vital/CNS is more apt to stop the fight than a round that opens beautifully but fails to penetrate deep enough to hit anything vital. I can't believe that this is even a point of argument or debate.

As pointed out above, a shallow penetrating round like a CB 115 is fine on unobstructed upper torso shots where nothing interferes with it penetrating deep enough to hit a vital/CNS. But if it has to go through a limb it has a REAL problem. I'm not going to depend on an unobstructed upper torso shot. It would be great, but I'm not going to depend on it. I've been doing this for far too long to know better.
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Old 07-02-2012, 07:23   #31
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Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
To begin with, I like some of Mas's work. I'm not going to go into a lengthy dissertation here as to the accuracy of some of his 'reports'. Others have done that in detail.

Reply to Massad Ayoob's Kooky Screed
Wasn't that kooky reply to the "kooky screed" written by a guy who got booted off this forum for his obvious personal agenda against Ayoob...?

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Old 07-02-2012, 07:36   #32
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I carry this round in my carry weapon. Its a FAST round, and when you're at the range it definitely has that 'crack' and deliver, rather then the bang of the range ammo.
It has great expansion, and I definitely trust carrying it.
That or Winchester Rangers.
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Old 07-02-2012, 07:56   #33
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Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
Your lumping in different eras of research and testing that spanned 20+ years. Your premise isn't valid.

The 115+P+ GD is an excellent round because it is bonded, therefore it doesn't shed it's jacket, therefore it penetrates deeper than an un-bonded round.

As I've said many times, expansion is the icing on the cake but penetration IS the cake. A round that expands less but hits a vital/CNS is more apt to stop the fight than a round that opens beautifully but fails to penetrate deep enough to hit anything vital. I can't believe that this is even a point of argument or debate.

As pointed out above, a shallow penetrating round like a CB 115 is fine on unobstructed upper torso shots where nothing interferes with it penetrating deep enough to hit a vital/CNS. But if it has to go through a limb it has a REAL problem. I'm not going to depend on an unobstructed upper torso shot. It would be great, but I'm not going to depend on it. I've been doing this for far too long to know better.
This pretty much says it all. This exact conversation is going on in about 3 different threads here. In the handgun world the bullet must penetrate and must always penetrate. It can go as fast as a hand gun round can travel but must penetrate. Ideal penetration does not come from frag rounds but from bonded as Dave stated here.

If you desire a +p+ 115gr load use the Gold Dots model. The one they make is a proven bonded hollow point design and gets 1300fps out of a 4” barrel. Trust me you want to have EVERY edge you can during a violent encounter and having sub-par ammo is not the street you want to walk down first.
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:03   #34
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Wasn't that kooky reply to the "kooky screed" written by a guy who got booted off this forum for his obivious personal agenda against Ayoob...?
I didn't know Dodson was ever a member here? I just picked that one (there are many) off the top of my head as I remember reading many articles from the site.
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:10   #35
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This pretty much says it all. This exact conversation is going on in about 3 different threads here. In the handgun world the bullet must penetrate and must always penetrate. It can go as fast as a hang gun round can travel but must penetrate. Ideal penetration does not come from frag rounds but from bonded as Dave stated here.

If you desire a +p+ 115gr load use the Gold Dots model. The one they make is a proven bonded hollow point design and gets 1300fps out of a 4” barrel. Trust me you want to have EVERY edge you can during a violent encounter and having sub-par ammo is not the street you want to walk down first.
+1

And I would like to add to the part I underlined in your quote. Due to factors we can't control (tunnel vision, loss of manual dexterity, auditory exclusion, dim light etc) we need to concentrate on factors we can control. Being able to clear a malfunction quickly under duress. Being able to load, rack and shoot your firearm one-handed (you may be injured or sweeping a loved one to cover etc). Experience shooting from different positions, different environments etc.

Remember, we don't rise to the occasion, we sink to the level of our training.

Stay safe.
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Old 07-02-2012, 09:42   #36
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If I recall the Illinois State Police developed that load (+P+ 115 Grn 9mm HP). It worked very well for them. It worked very well for the Border Patrol. I really do not care what it does in Jello, it works on the street.

Why do these threads always degenerate into thrashing the messenger? Mas and M&S merely collected the data and analyzed it. So M&S set restrictions that would allow them to create a metric of measurement.
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:12   #37
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If I recall the Illinois State Police developed that load (+P+ 115 Grn 9mm HP). It worked very well for them. It worked very well for the Border Patrol. I really do not care what it does in Jello, it works on the street.
And it also had failures with both due to lack of penetration. We cannot just look at successes and then decree the round 'works on the street'. Just as we can't look at only the dismal failures and decree 'the round sucks'. There is more to the totality of the situation.

It 'can' work, but there are rounds that 'can' work better and under less than ideal circumstances.

As far as Mas and M&S, nothing against them personally. I think there have been instances of 'embellishment'...but well, we all do that don't we? As far as their research, it is only sound within the narrow range of criteria they set. Outside of that criterion, it is unsound. One cannot, objectively, look at OSS and draw a conclusion as to what is 'best' on the street. It would be a subjective opinion at best and not an opinion based upon the totality of evidence available.

Bottom line, a 115 (+P/+P+) that violently expands, shedding its jacket and with limited penetration 'could' be the bomb on an unobstructed frontal torso shot. But a limb or barrier in front that the round has to pass through, or a cross-torso shot....well, I just don't like your chances of survival. Carry it if you like. I prefer a round that will penetrate deeper under less than ideal circumstances. Today we have rounds that will expand (all things being equal) AND penetrate deep enough to hit a vital/CNS. It makes sense to carry that type of round and train properly.

If I were going to carry a 9mm (a 9mm is my HDG) and I was going to use a 115 (standard, +P or +P+) it would be a bonded bullet like GD for the reasons we've been discussing. What I do load with is either 124+P GD or 124 PDX1. Before we started carrying the G21 with 230 GD's, we carried 9mm with the 124+P GD. It never failed due to lack of penetration and I don't recall it not expanding to some degree depending upon what it hit.
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:34   #38
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If I recall the Illinois State Police developed that load (+P+ 115 Grn 9mm HP). It worked very well for them. It worked very well for the Border Patrol. I really do not care what it does in Jello, it
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And it also had failures with both due to lack of penetration. We cannot just look at successes and then decree the round 'works on the street'. Just as we can't look at only the dismal failures and decree 'the round sucks'. There is more to the totality of the situation.
Please provide details of the shootings the ISP had that were failures. I don't recall any. But then what do I know. I was in IA at the time we carried the +P+ where I was investigating, supervising, and/or reviewing all our shootings where the W-W 115 +P+ was used. I was also on the street and was there when that rd was used a few times. If you have info I never saw then I'd like to see it. It wasn't in any of our reports.

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I think there have been instances of 'embellishment' ...but well, we all do that don't we?
That's why I'm asking for details and particulars.
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:30   #39
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Please provide details of the shootings the ISP had that were failures. I don't recall any. But then what do I know. I was in IA at the time we carried the +P+ where I was investigating, supervising, and/or reviewing all our shootings where the W-W 115 +P+ was used. I was also on the street and was there when that rd was used a few times. If you have info I never saw then I'd like to see it. It wasn't in any of our reports.


That's why I'm asking for details and particulars.
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Old 07-02-2012, 12:09   #40
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Jeeezo pete folks, ANY handgun load can fail, period. They all have, including the almighty "bonded" magic bullets that some worship as the know all,end all,be all of handgun bullets. I'm in LE as well, I have seen used the 357/125 combo and the 9mm and 40. The 357 is absolute dynamite on a 2 legged threat so take that not enough of this and that a put it where it belongs, with the rest of the BS. I've seen 9BP and 9BPLE used, BP was spotty but BPLE was dynamite just like the 357. I've seen what organs looked like post shooting with these high velocity loads, shredded. Large folks, small folks it didn't matter, these 2 loads in particular penetrated deep enough to instantly stop(kill) these folks time and again. They still will, the bottom line is this, if you want to run CB 115, run it, shoot it accurately and keep shooting until said threat is no longer a threat,period.
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Last edited by 9mm +p+; 07-02-2012 at 12:11..
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