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Old 07-02-2012, 13:19   #41
fredj338
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Originally Posted by isp2605 View Post
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Originally Posted by Nanuk
If I recall the Illinois State Police developed that load (+P+ 115 Grn 9mm HP). It worked very well for them. It worked very well for the Border Patrol. I really do not care what it does in Jello, it

Please provide details of the shootings the ISP had that were failures. I don't recall any. But then what do I know. I was in IA at the time we carried the +P+ where I was investigating, supervising, and/or reviewing all our shootings where the W-W 115 +P+ was used. I was also on the street and was there when that rd was used a few times. If you have info I never saw then I'd like to see it. It wasn't in any of our reports.


That's why I'm asking for details and particulars.
So are you saying that ISP never had a failure to stop using that round? I find that hard to believe as everything fails at some point, even rifle & SG rounds. Me, I am not a huge fan of ultra fast & light as penetration will suffer on intermediate barriers like a forearm or large guy on a perp shoulder shot. So I favor a bit more bullet wt. Still, it has a proven street record & since 99% of us will never be inviolved in a shooting, if you like it & can shoot it, there ya go. Your ability trumps caliber or bullet design & many that are carrying, including LEO, are lacking quite a bit in the skill dept.
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Old 07-02-2012, 17:08   #42
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No sample of data collection is perfect. None of the stopping power theories are perfect. Though one cannot dispute what has worked in the past, and what continues to work today on the street. Everything else is just a guess.

Question: Does anyone here dispute the effectiveness of the Federal 125 grain .357 magnum at 1400 to 1450?
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Old 07-02-2012, 17:12   #43
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
So are you saying that ISP never had a failure to stop using that round?
Failure to stop? Too many people confuse failure to stop with killing. We in LE aren't in the business of killing people. In every case where the BG was hit they stopped their aggression. That's what a rd is suppose to do.
Obviously a hit in the arm or leg wouldn't necessarily be an incapacitating shot but that doesn't mean those so hit didn't stop either. However, a torso hit was a stopping hit.

Quote:
I find that hard to believe as everything fails at some point, even rifle & SG rounds.
I've seen a .270 hit that didn't stop too. However, what you believe is entirely irrelevant. I'm just reporting all the cases that I was involved with and investigated. I saw quite a few of them over quite a few years. That was my job investigating not only our shootings but we were called in by other agencies to investigate their shootings as well. Remember, your beliefs don't really matter. Beliefs can be based on a lot of things, usually few related to facts. So how many shootings have you investigated on which to base your belief?

Again, I'm asking deputydave to provide the incidents he refers to. I didn't see them. I don't know how many of our shooting cases he reviewed. Is that another "believe" but nothing to show for it?

BTW we did have failure to stop when we were using the 115 Silvertip. Ever hear of that rd? Know of any other shootings where that rd was used and the results didn't go well? FYI, our failure with the Silvertip was 5 yrs prior to the other shooting. We told them the Silvertip wasn't the right rd for the job but they didn't want to look at our shooting investigation/results. They knew better. They had their computer man and RII telling them the Silvertip was the best rd. We knew better. Unfortunately they found out too late. Some lessons are learned harder than others.
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Old 07-02-2012, 17:36   #44
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Failure to stop? Too many people confuse failure to stop with killing. We in LE aren't in the business of killing people. In every case where the BG was hit they stopped their aggression. That's what a rd is suppose to do.
Obviously a hit in the arm or leg wouldn't necessarily be an incapacitating shot but that doesn't mean those so hit didn't stop either. However, a torso hit was a stopping hit.


I've seen a .270 hit that didn't stop too. However, what you believe is entirely irrelevant. I'm just reporting all the cases that I was involved with and investigated. I saw quite a few of them over quite a few years. That was my job investigating not only our shootings but we were called in by other agencies to investigate their shootings as well. Remember, your beliefs don't really matter. Beliefs can be based on a lot of things, usually few related to facts. So how many shootings have you investigated on which to base your belief?

Again, I'm asking deputydave to provide the incidents he refers to. I didn't see them. I don't know how many of our shooting cases he reviewed. Is that another "believe" but nothing to show for it?

BTW we did have failure to stop when we were using the 115 Silvertip. Ever hear of that rd? Know of any other shootings where that rd was used and the results didn't go well? FYI, our failure with the Silvertip was 5 yrs prior to the other shooting. We told them the Silvertip wasn't the right rd for the job but they didn't want to look at our shooting investigation/results. They knew better. They had their computer man and RII telling them the Silvertip was the best rd. We knew better. Unfortunately they found out too late. Some lessons are learned harder than others.
So I am not sure you answered my question in your looong reply; Was there ever a failure to stop w/ that 115gr+P+ round? We all know that means the BG took a COM hit & continued to fight. That's all I aksed, it's an easy question, I don't really need a lecture. BTW, neve mentioned killing, I always hate that answer to a rounds effectiveness. Rocks & sticks can kill but can be poor stoppers. As I stated, anything can fail to cease the BG actions, even high power rifle & SG rounds.
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Old 07-02-2012, 17:54   #45
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So I am not sure you answered my question in your looong reply;
Then I guess you didn't read it then.

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Was there ever a failure to stop w/ that 115gr+P+ round?
Since apparently you either didn't read it, or you read it but it conflicted with your "belief" I'll repeat it.
"Obviously a hit in the arm or leg wouldn't necessarily be an incapacitating shot but that doesn't mean those so hit didn't stop either. However, a torso hit was a stopping hit."

Quote:
We all know that means the BG took a COM hit & continued to fight. That's all I aksed, it's an easy question, I don't really need a lecture.
Lecture? Apparently you need something then because the question was answered and I repeated it above. I know, it conflicts with your 'beliefs'.
I'll repeat and type real slow this time so you can follow along. When we had a torso hit with the W-W 115 +P+, and the 115 BPLE for that matter, we got stops. Even with some extremity hits still stopped.

Guess you missed my question to you. I'll repeat it. "So how many shootings have you investigated on which to base your belief?"

Quote:
Rocks & sticks can kill but can be poor stoppers. As I stated, anything can fail to cease the BG actions, even high power rifle & SG rounds..
Seen both of those fail but not with a good hit. Just saying "it failed" tells absolutely nothing except show that the person saying it doesn't have a clue about shooting dynamics. Where was the hit? Distances involved?
I did a case where a guy took a 12 ga slug broadside. Nearly removed one arm where it took the bone, took out a rib going in, hit both lungs and clipped the top of his heart, took out another rib on exit, hit the upper arm and removed most of the bicept muscle. He dropped immediately but made an attempt to go for his dropped BHP. Failure? He didn't stop immediately and tried getting to his gun.
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Old 07-02-2012, 19:13   #46
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If I recall the Illinois State Police developed that load (+P+ 115 Grn 9mm HP). It worked very well for them. It worked very well for the Border Patrol. I really do not care what it does in Jello, it works on the street.

Why do these threads always degenerate into thrashing the messenger? Mas and M&S merely collected the data and analyzed it. So M&S set restrictions that would allow them to create a metric of measurement.
Good lord, I thought that M&S had been put to bed. Their "research" has been debunked time and time again. If people can't get over that I really don't know what to say. Also I would like to know what Police Department uses M&S data to pick a duty round. Even the USBP is going heavy for cal these days.
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Old 07-02-2012, 19:19   #47
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This is the same FBI that used the flawed Computer Man that gave them the flawed 147 gr. HP and conveniently overlooked a literal ton of good shoots by the Boder Patrol using BPLE. The same FBI that botched thousands of lab specimens in the past. It's a Gov't agency and anyone having worked for one knows they are full of dead timber and many merely flying the "brown bomber" to get to a pension. They are not infallible & to be frank are rarely involved in shootouts. They are still mainly accountants. The days of Jelly Bryce are long gone.

ATF's Fast & Furious is a superb example of Gov't bureacracy. It's over a year and we still don't know who officially ordered it.




It's an excellent round.


I don't know why you have such a hard on when someone mentions the FBI protocols. Did the FBI shoot your dog?. Admit it or not, this IS the standard by which the vast majority of LE agencies use to pick their rounds. This is also the testing that ammo manufacturers DESIGN their rounds around. These facts have made modern rounds much more effective in the LE and civilian self defense scenario. You can't argue with facts.
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Old 07-02-2012, 19:41   #48
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Originally Posted by isp2605 View Post
In every case where the BG was hit they stopped their aggression. That's what a rd is suppose to do.
Obviously a hit in the arm or leg wouldn't necessarily be an incapacitating shot but that doesn't mean those so hit didn't stop either. However, a torso hit was a stopping hit.
No offense, I don't believe you've investigated every single shooting in the state over the entire period of time the round was used. Nor do I believe that every single shot to the arm or leg stopped the aggression of every person shot in your state. If you want to tout this as a magic pill, I'd simply have to ask why the switch to .40 S&W? I mean, if you have a round that has stopped everyone shot 100% of the time no matter where their shot...why would you ever change?
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Old 07-02-2012, 19:58   #49
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As I've said many times, expansion is the icing on the cake but penetration IS the cake.

Good enough for me.
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Old 07-02-2012, 21:25   #50
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I was carrying a 357 mag at the time when our agents were using that load, all I can say is it worked just as well as the 357's we were using to stop bad guys. The one I saw personally with the 9BPLE was DRT, with 1 COM hit.
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Old 07-02-2012, 21:26   #51
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Good lord, I thought that M&S had been put to bed. Their "research" has been debunked time and time again. If people can't get over that I really don't know what to say. Also I would like to know what Police Department uses M&S data to pick a duty round. Even the USBP is going heavy for cal these days.

Debunked by whom? Someone with an agenda say like...Fackler?

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I don't know why you have such a hard on when someone mentions the FBI protocols. Did the FBI shoot your dog?. Admit it or not, this IS the standard by which the vast majority of LE agencies use to pick their rounds. This is also the testing that ammo manufacturers DESIGN their rounds around. These facts have made modern rounds much more effective in the LE and civilian self defense scenario. You can't argue with facts.
It is the standard for sure. However, they have a long history of FUBAR's and following agendas and ignoring historical fact. This has been alluded to in this thread previously. When reality does not fit their belief system or agenda they merely ignore it. Not unlike several posting in this thread who are penetration junkies and when confronted with PRIMARY sources are Doubting Thomases as the facts do not correlate with their belief systems.
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Old 07-02-2012, 21:47   #52
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Debunked by whom? Someone with an agenda say like...Fackler?
You have been in on more than one of those fights on CC. I know that there is nothing that anyone can say to change your mind ref M/S. If you are interested, try www.google.com


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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
It is the standard for sure. However, they have a long history of FUBAR's and following agendas and ignoring historical fact. This has been alluded to in this thread previously. When reality does not fit their belief system or agenda they merely ignore it. Not unlike several posting in this thread who are penetration junkies and when confronted with PRIMARY sources are Doubting Thomases as the facts do not correlate with their belief systems.
So if penetration junkies are wrong for being so, then what is your metric for deciding how a round fairs? Are you trying to get us to believe that we are to take "street cred" as our primary deciding metric? How can you quantify this? Do you just simply say "eh, it worked in a bunch of random situations, it's gotta be good....".
BTW yes penetration is number one ref bullet performance, but most people take the rest into account too, that's why I don't have FMJ's in my gun right now.

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Old 07-02-2012, 22:06   #53
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Ayoob was a policeman in a 2 bit town in New Hampshire. He used to be and maybe still is a Corbon distributor. Please don't tell me he is some kind of an expert or not biased. Even Evan Marshall on his web site talks of how well the 147gr 9mm works.

I pick my carry load because my neighbors friend talked to someone who overheard someone who knows a policeman say it works well. That's street cred.
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Old 07-03-2012, 00:02   #54
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Then I guess you didn't read it then.


Since apparently you either didn't read it, or you read it but it conflicted with your "belief" I'll repeat it.
"Obviously a hit in the arm or leg wouldn't necessarily be an incapacitating shot but that doesn't mean those so hit didn't stop either. However, a torso hit was a stopping hit."


Lecture? Apparently you need something then because the question was answered and I repeated it above. I know, it conflicts with your 'beliefs'.
I'll repeat and type real slow this time so you can follow along. When we had a torso hit with the W-W 115 +P+, and the 115 BPLE for that matter, we got stops. Even with some extremity hits still stopped.

Guess you missed my question to you. I'll repeat it. "So how many shootings have you investigated on which to base your belief?"


Seen both of those fail but not with a good hit. Just saying "it failed" tells absolutely nothing except show that the person saying it doesn't have a clue about shooting dynamics. Where was the hit? Distances involved?
I did a case where a guy took a 12 ga slug broadside. Nearly removed one arm where it took the bone, took out a rib going in, hit both lungs and clipped the top of his heart, took out another rib on exit, hit the upper arm and removed most of the bicept muscle. He dropped immediately but made an attempt to go for his dropped BHP. Failure? He didn't stop immediately and tried getting to his gun.
Wow, for an investigator, your reading skills are muddy. I specified COM hits, I understand wound balistics. I was just asking in your professional position, you stated you never saw a failure then equivocate about what the definition is after I pretty much layed it out. Thanks for trying though, forget I even asked.
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Old 07-03-2012, 00:35   #55
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Why do you have the attitude? I asked a legitimate question and I'm getting a Jr. High School snarky response. It isn't appreciated.



I can appreciate your interest in research, but the quality of the material you're researching will affect the validity of your conclusion. Based upon your comments, I suspected Mas as a possible source. I figured it was either him or Marshal.

To begin with, I like some of Mas's work. His 'Cute Lawyer Tricks' should be mandatory academy training. Some of his work with ammunition is fine, some of it is not. I'm not going to go into a lengthy dissertation here as to the accuracy of some of his 'reports'. Others have done that in detail.

Reply to Massad Ayoob's Kooky Screed

[b]Again, some of his stuff is fine, quite a bit is not. He was/is a big proponent of the OSS mantra. I find it difficult in this day and age to believe people still follow the OSS line, some taking it as gospel. [/b
Apparently you don't have a clear comprehension of either Mas, Evan's or Ed's philosophy; never have I read anywhere where any of the above named people have stated that they believe in shooting a BG once and waiting to see what happens. What M&S h e published is their findings of OSS incidents within a given criteria. They are not proponents of OSS. And if you follow their rightings and their teachings (especially Mas), you would know this.

Quote:
This may piss off a lot of people that still think OSS is a valid piece of data. But it isn't. Again, volumes have been written to debunk it. It isn't science as it doesn't fit the definition of science i.e. it isn't testable or repeatable for each shooting in-and-of-itself using the same exact environment from each shooting.
I suppose shooting inanimate blocks of gelatinized animal protein which is NOTHING equal to real human flesh, blood and bones, under environmentally controlled conditions at set distances, temperature ann angles within a labratory is somehow more "real" or "authentic" than actual street shootings?

Quote:
If you've read this far, let me state it another way for those serious about wanting to know fact from fiction. OSS, and a lot of what Mas puts forth, was based on several UNREALISTIC criteria. For example, and this is the part many people don't know about or choose to ignore; these shootings were allegedly all UNOBSTRUCTED FRONTAL UPPER TORSO SHOTS. That is a major point.


Okay so you have a problem with this. Do you also feel the same about Eugene Walberg's study from 1991 regarding the Win OSM 147JHP subsonic? Hate to tell you but he used a similar criteria. But Walberg's problem is that the Coroner CHERRY PICKED EACH AND EVERY BULLET FOR HIM, bullets that stayed in the body which never hit bone, in order to PROVE that his theory that ballistic gel is similar to human tissue. We know from history and actual shootings (reported by M&S, Ayoob and even isp2605) that this load was a poor LE/SD round with failures to expand and deadly overpenetration. Walberg wouldn't DARE to include such facts in his report because that would completely INVALIDATE his conclusion. And we know that Walberg's bullets were Cherry Picked because even the famous DocGKR ADMITTED THIS FACT in a thread on the Beretta Forum on this same topic (115JHP+P). Dare you to accuse DocGKR of lying.

Quote:
Many times, and I mentioned just one above in another post, a 115 does NOT have the sectional density to penetrate through an obstacle i.e. a limb or barrier, and still reach a vital/CNS. You cannot catalog an alleged unobstructed upper torso shot and then state it has a 'street record' of such-n-such %. That is intellectual dishonesty.
If so, are you going to accuse Walborg of the same "intellectual dishonesty" too. Yet he went even further by not including shots that would completely invalidate his hypothesis. Excluding evidence that will invalidate one's hypothesis is considered fraudulent by others (just like the "global warming" scientist that manufactured his "data" to support the theory of man-made global warming), except in this case his fraud was overlooked by his "peers" in the name of science and rightousness.

Quote:
You can state that in that shootings that meet your exact criteria a certain round performed X% of the time. But that is meaningless as far as a total street record. Multiple shootings were discarded to reach a % number within this artificial criteria.
Walberg again did the same thing.

Quote:
At one time, the Corbon 115 had something like 32 shootings and a 93% OSS record. How many shootings were discarded because they didn't meet the criteria? Why were many of the alleged sources not reported? Police shootings are public record after the investigation is complete. Yet in many instances, many things never 'added up' i.e. mis-reporting the actual facts of a shooting. But lets use the 32 shootings above. What if there were actually 73 shootings total, but the other 39 did not meet the artificially induced criteria i.e they were obstructed shots (which the majority of shootings are). Lets say that in those 39 shootings there was a failure to stop i.e. the round did not penetrate deep enough to hit a vital/CNS. This dramatically affects this 93% number!
Here in CA we have the most liberal Public Records Act in which someone can get almost any govt document. I don't know of ANY Coroner's office that will routinely release ANY autopsy report or any LEA that will release an entire shooting report. Will your agency release to me the entire file of the shootings that you've been involved in???

Quote:
It doesn't mean the 115 is useless. Doesn't mean it bounces off bad guys. But it does mean you're going to have to hope for an unobstructed upper torso shot in order to get the best benefit from this round. Yes, it is possible for it to go through a limb and still reach a vital....but it is NOT as likely as a 124 or 147 due to sectional density. And remember, adding the +P or +P+ is only going to DECREASE penetration on many rounds.
And yet you disbelieve that the 115JHP+P+ has been as effective as many of those "in the know" continue to report? Are you saying that people like Mas and isp2605 are liars or just ignorant, uninformed and biased when it comes to what their experience and knowledge has shown them otherwise? Does "sectional density" disprove that the 115JHP+P/+P+ isn't effective?

Quote:
Does anyone want to bet their life on getting an unobstructed upper torso shot? Seriously!

Also, the artificial criteria of OSS dictated the bad guy did not go past 10 feet before falling down. But falling down within an artificially circle is not the same as being incapacitated. A bad guy on the ground that is conscious can still return fire.

Maybe OSS and Mas are still getting a lot of play in gun magazines? I hope not. Stating that the 115 9mm and the 124 .357mag have the best 'street record' based upon Mas and/or OSS is misleading, irresponsible and flat out incorrect. Not looking to bust your chops, not looking for a flame war. But that type of statement is unsupported and wrong.

I've been in five deadly force incidents. I've researched the science and the psuedo-science. I've been in surgery taking custody of rounds taken out of bad guys. I've interviewed shooting victims in the hospital and jail and read the reports from those in the morgue. I've tested more rounds than I can remember. The 9mm 115 is NOT the best choice, does NOT have the best street record, and has FAILED more times than I can count due to lack of penetration.

If anyone reading this thread is on the fence, I encourage you to read Mas's offering and the OSS (one-stop-shot) material. Then read the material explaining in greater detail why it isn't reliable and explaining the testing that is reliable and the vast majority of agencies follow. This way you can make an informed decision for yourself. Do NOT get your gun info from magazines or gun boards. Don't even take what I say as gospel until you check it out for yourselves with an open mind and some common sense.

Firearms Tactical
And yet you end your comment by posting a link to a GUN BOARD! How hypocritical is THAT!
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Old 07-03-2012, 00:48   #56
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Ayoob was a policeman in a 2 bit town in New Hampshire. He used to be and maybe still is a Corbon distributor. Please don't tell me he is some kind of an expert or not biased. Even Evan Marshall on his web site talks of how well the 147gr 9mm works.

I pick my carry load because my neighbors friend talked to someone who overheard someone who knows a policeman say it works well. That's street cred.
Please post your creds so we can judge whether you are worthy to question Mas' knowledge. Then I'll invite him to this thread so he can provide YOU with his long list creds that allows him to be a police prosecutor in his state, a firearms instructor and an expert witness.

As for Evan, he has stated (like many others) that the current modern 147JHP's are light-years ahead of the original 147 loads that were dismal failures from the 1980's. Don't put words in his mouth and make statements out of context.
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Old 07-03-2012, 00:58   #57
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cor-bon makes good, quality ammo. it is expensive though, not many people can afford $125.00 for 100 rounds every time they go to the range.

i did notice that the cor-bon .44 magnum 165gr. was rated at 1300 fps. putting it squarely in the 10mm field. so you still have to watch what you buy to ensure its what youre wanting to get.
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Old 07-03-2012, 04:26   #58
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i did notice that the cor-bon .44 magnum 165gr. was rated at 1300 fps. putting it squarely in the 10mm field. so you still have to watch what you buy to ensure its what youre wanting to get.
Yes, this is obviously their .44 magnum SD load, which is not to be compared with a 240 grain at 1300 which would be used for bear hunting.

I know I wouldn't wanna be hit with either one.

Back to velocity / penetration. I had asked a question and haven't received an answer, so I'll ask it again,

Does anyone here doubt the effectiveness of the Federal 125 grain .357 magnum at 1400 to 1450?
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Old 07-03-2012, 07:26   #59
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Apparently you don't have a clear comprehension of either Mas, Evan's or Ed's philosophy;
This is an unfounded assumption on your part. Actually, I have a pretty clear understanding of their work. There may be some, but I am unaware of any professional agency that uses their material as the basis of ammunition selection.

Quote:
never have I read anywhere where any of the above named people have stated that they believe in shooting a BG once and waiting to see what happens.
I don't believe anyone other that you have brought this up in this thread.

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What M&S h e published is their findings of OSS incidents within a given criteria.
Correct. A criteria that is artificial, narrow and unrealistic while excluding other shootings that were outside the confines of said criteria. Thus their findings have no basis in the totality of real world shootings.

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I suppose shooting inanimate blocks of gelatinized animal protein which is NOTHING equal to real human flesh, blood and bones, under environmentally controlled conditions at set distances, temperature ann angles within a labratory is somehow more "real" or "authentic" than actual street shootings?
Actually yes. What you've stated above is testable and repeatable. It therefore falls under the definition of science. Whereas arriving at a percentage-of-effectiveness using 'real' shootings under a narrow range of shootings while ignoring other 'real' shootings is not science. It is like having a rubber ruler.

As I've tried many times to explain, to those who can put aside a preconceived conclusion; Your dependence on 'real' street shootings is understandable, be unrealistic. You have not taken into account the totality of shootings with the Corbon 115+P+. You would have to have an understanding of why a particular round succeeded and another failed. And to be realistic, we cannot then define the results under a very unrealistic, narrow set of criteria and then proclaim a 'street effectiveness rating'.
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Do you also feel the same about Eugene Walberg's study from 1991 regarding the Win OSM 147JHP subsonic?
I have not read his study.

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Walberg wouldn't DARE to include such facts in his report because that would completely INVALIDATE his conclusion. And we know that Walberg's bullets were Cherry Picked because even the famous DocGKR ADMITTED THIS FACT in a thread on the Beretta Forum on this same topic (115JHP+P). Dare you to accuse DocGKR of lying.
Are you on drugs? I'm not a member of any Beretta forum. DocGKR is not participating in this thread. The only person bringing up this Walberg...is you. I strongly recommend proof-reading your post before hitting submit. No flame, just a friendly recommendation.

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I don't know of ANY Coroner's office that will routinely release ANY autopsy report or any LEA that will release an entire shooting report.
I cannot comment on your state. Public record means just that...public record. There are several laws on the books concerning this as well. Have you ever tried to research a report or are you just assuming again?

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And yet you disbelieve that the 115JHP+P+ has been as effective as many of those "in the know" continue to report? Are you saying that people like Mas and isp2605 are liars or just ignorant, uninformed and biased when it comes to what their experience and knowledge has shown them otherwise? Does "sectional density" disprove that the 115JHP+P/+P+ isn't effective?
You appear to be reading through the lenses of a preconceived idea. First off, I question the totality of the knowledge of 'those in the know'. Sectional density is a function of bullet penetration-to-caliber-to-weight. On an unobstructed, frontal torso shot the 115+P+ has fared pretty well. But it isn't a 100% stopper as some have touted...nothing is a 100% stopper except death and taxes. Going through a limb or cross-torso...like I said, I don't like your chances. But hey, maybe you'll get lucky.

I hope you never have to put it to the test though.
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Old 07-03-2012, 07:31   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Does anyone here doubt the effectiveness of the Federal 125 grain .357 magnum at 1400 to 1450?
As with any round, if it penetrates deep enough to hit something important then it has done everything on its end. If you have put it in the correct spot, you've done everything on your end. However, I remind everyone of Murphy's law.

I like .357 and this was my first off-duty. But as with the 115+P+ 9mm, it isn't magic. I remind everyone of the female LAPD officer shot through the heart with a .357 round. She survived and returned fire, killing her attacker with 3 rounds of 147 subsonic 9MM.

If a 125 .357 goes deep enough then it 'can' be effective. But it is not a certainty. Same with any round. Too many variables.
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