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Old 07-03-2012, 07:36   #61
spcwes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isp2605 View Post
Guess you missed my question to you. I'll repeat it. "So how many shootings have you investigated on which to base your belief?"
Not my question but I will answer it for my side. 5 Officer involved shootings I have assisted investigations on, 6 outside department shootings.

Reviewed over 100 Officer involved shootings that I was privy to review autopsy on and to include incident files. Was in the same room during I think 16 autopsies now and talked with people or read case files on 50-60 non fatal shootings regarding incident, caliber and training (civilian, LE, Military or just well trained).

Is it ok if I continue to post on this topic sir?

Also on the same note folks have mentioned several times that looking for specific data like un-obstructed COM hits to account for the success of a round is biased info as most shootings (yes, most look it up yourself) do not see these hits.

So all in all a round getting to the center of the problem regardless of arms, legs, sheetrock, glass, denim, leather, latex or what ever else you can think is probably what you want to see out of your SD ammo
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Old 07-03-2012, 13:47   #62
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
I suppose shooting inanimate blocks of gelatinized animal protein which is NOTHING equal to real human flesh, blood and bones, under environmentally controlled conditions at set distances, temperature ann angles within a labratory is somehow more "real" or "authentic" than actual street shootings?

[/b]

Okay so you have a problem with this. Do you also feel the same about Eugene Walberg's study from 1991 regarding the Win OSM 147JHP subsonic? Hate to tell you but he used a similar criteria. But Walberg's problem is that the Coroner CHERRY PICKED EACH AND EVERY BULLET FOR HIM, bullets that stayed in the body which never hit bone, in order to PROVE that his theory that ballistic gel is similar to human tissue. We know from history and actual shootings (reported by M&S, Ayoob and even isp2605) that this load was a poor LE/SD round with failures to expand and deadly overpenetration. Walberg wouldn't DARE to include such facts in his report because that would completely INVALIDATE his conclusion. And we know that Walberg's bullets were Cherry Picked because even the famous DocGKR ADMITTED THIS FACT in a thread on the Beretta Forum on this same topic (115JHP+P). Dare you to accuse DocGKR of lying.



If so, are you going to accuse Walborg of the same "intellectual dishonesty" too. Yet he went even further by not including shots that would completely invalidate his hypothesis. Excluding evidence that will invalidate one's hypothesis is considered fraudulent by others (just like the "global warming" scientist that manufactured his "data" to support the theory of man-made global warming), except in this case his fraud was overlooked by his "peers" in the name of science and rightousness.



Walberg again did the same thing.


Please post your creds so we can judge whether you are worthy to question Walberg's knowledge.
The difference between Walberg's study and M/S "study" is that you can definitively repeat Walberg's findings, yet there is not a snowball's chance in hell you could do the same with the M/S findings.
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Old 07-03-2012, 14:52   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
As with any round, if it penetrates deep enough to hit something important then it has done everything on its end. If you have put it in the correct spot, you've done everything on your end. However, I remind everyone of Murphy's law.

I like .357 and this was my first off-duty. But as with the 115+P+ 9mm, it isn't magic. I remind everyone of the female LAPD officer shot through the heart with a .357 round. She survived and returned fire, killing her attacker with 3 rounds of 147 subsonic 9MM.

If a 125 .357 goes deep enough then it 'can' be effective. But it is not a certainty. Same with any round. Too many variables.
I agree no round will give us 100% certain stops.

Which .357 magnum load was the female officer shot with? Was it a 125 @1450? This would obviously make difference as there are many loads for the .357 magnum.
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Old 07-03-2012, 16:28   #64
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post

Okay so you have a problem with this. Do you also feel the same about Eugene Walberg's study from 1991 regarding the Win OSM 147JHP subsonic? Hate to tell you but he used a similar criteria. But Walberg's problem is that the Coroner CHERRY PICKED EACH AND EVERY BULLET FOR HIM, bullets that stayed in the body which never hit bone, in order to PROVE that his theory that ballistic gel is similar to human tissue. We know from history and actual shootings (reported by M&S, Ayoob and even isp2605) that this load was a poor LE/SD round with failures to expand and deadly overpenetration. Walberg wouldn't DARE to include such facts in his report because that would completely INVALIDATE his conclusion. And we know that Walberg's bullets were Cherry Picked because even the famous DocGKR ADMITTED THIS FACT in a thread on the Beretta Forum on this same topic (115JHP+P). Dare you to accuse DocGKR of lying.
Hmm…

After you and your little buddy got your pee-pees smacked in this thread-

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18975037&postcount=44

for misrepresenting Wolberg’s research as something other than what it was and accusing him of lying when in fact he was forthcoming with his methodology it seems like you guys are both back again with the same old, same old.

I've reposted it below for those who wish to see the disingenuous, but simplistic argument being pushed by these two "members".

Just because you don't understand the article that you refer to doesn't mean that it is untrue; it just means that you don't understand it.



Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
...a study started by Eugene Wolberg with the San Diego Police Department. The study compared bullet performance in ballistic gelatin vs. autopsy results from actual police shootings. The findings from autopsies very closely correlated to those in ballistic gelatin. However, all head wounds and bone hits were eliminated.
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler...hester_9mm.pdf

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92500
That's it? That's all you have?

Did you even bother to read the article that you've cited?

Gee, I hope that this wasn't the "bombshell" quote that Merkavaboi was planning to drop.

It is common and accepted practice for researchers to select the parametric and data constraints for their case studies. If this were viewed as reason to discredit his or anyone else's research and findings, then almost every research article that has ever been written and its findings would have to be thrown out. In fact, parameter constraint selection is established as a sound practice within the scientific research community and to attempt to portray it as some sort of dishonesty is an act of intellectual dishonesty itself. So long as it is done honestly and openly (Wolberg explains the constraints of his data selection on the first page of the article cited above) and the reasons for such constraint can be shown to be valid, then it is a valid practice.

Wolberg does this on the first page of the article stating:

"It should be noted that all head wounds, and bone hits were eliminated; this study deals only with shots that penetrated soft-tissue of the torso and did not hit bone."

In case you missed it, Wolberg was attempting to establish a correlation for the behavior of expanding projectiles in soft tissue and calibrated ordnance gelatin which is a soft tissue analog. Therefore, he eliminated the data that included hits to bony tissue and the cranium since the correlative relationship being investigated is one involving projectile behavior in soft tissue and a soft tissue analog, not that of calibrated ordnance gelatin to bony tissues. Wolberg states (also on the article's first page) that only shots that remained within the bodies of those being autopsied were considered for this correlative study:

"Only shots into the torso that remained in the body for their entire penetration depth were included in the study."

This constraint, is justifiable also, because in order to compare total penetration depths in both mediums the entire wound track must be measured. Projectiles that exited the bodies of those in the available test population cannot be used because the projectile's wound track was not captured in its entirety. Wolberg's disclaimer states clearly and in plain language on the first page of his research article and the language quoted above is taken directly from his article. That he elected to inform the reader of the constraints that he employed speaks volumes to the man's character.

Portraying Wolberg as being dishonest, when in fact he wasn't, is a lie itself and anyone doing so stoops to the lowest form of argument that there is- deception.

Anyone wishing to read Wolberg's article for themselves-

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler...hester_9mm.pdf

may do so and see for themselves the text that I have quoted from the article and that it is presented clearly and plainly in Wolberg's article (cited above by Tiro Fijo) for all to see.
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Old 07-03-2012, 17:32   #65
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Originally Posted by 481 View Post
Hmm…

After you and your little buddy got your pee-pees smacked in this thread-

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18975037&postcount=44

for misrepresenting Wolberg’s research as something other than what it was and accusing him of lying when in fact he was forthcoming with his methodology it seems like you guys are both back again with the same old, same old...

Just when I thought the thread couldn't get any worse, we have the resident "expert" from M4carbine.net now posting.
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Old 07-03-2012, 17:42   #66
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Once again Caliber Corner has produced one of the most retarded threads in the history of man.

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Old 07-03-2012, 18:03   #67
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Just when I thought the thread couldn't get any worse, we have the resident "expert" from M4carbine.net now posting.
Yep, the rational and truthful discussion of research conducted by highly educated professionals does seem to be sort of a bummer for you and your little buddy's agenda, doesn't it?
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Old 07-03-2012, 18:04   #68
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Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
I agree no round will give us 100% certain stops.

Which .357 magnum load was the female officer shot with? Was it a 125 @1450? This would obviously make difference as there are many loads for the .357 magnum.
My apologies, I don't remember what the article cited as the type of .357 round. This would have been about 23+ years ago give or take. I remember it was suppose to be one of those bump-n-rob jobs, but the perps didn't know it was a police officer in her POV. She wasn't wearing a vest though. It happened almost in front of her home and her roommate was also LAPD (dispatcher) who witnessed the event and called for help. The officer killed her attacker before passing out and survived emergency surgery. As far as I know, she returned to duty after a lengthy rehab.
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Old 07-03-2012, 18:17   #69
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Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Which .357 magnum load was the female officer shot with? Was it a 125 @1450? This would obviously make difference as there are many loads for the .357 magnum.
She was shot with a Winchester 110-grain jhp. She still has a few frags from the bullet in her chest. One of her return fire 9mm rounds hit the suspect in the neck and dropped him.

She's a sergeant in training now.

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Old 07-03-2012, 19:15   #70
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Please post your creds so we can judge whether you are worthy to question Mas' knowledge. Then I'll invite him to this thread so he can provide YOU with his long list creds that allows him to be a police prosecutor in his state, a firearms instructor and an expert witness.

As for Evan, he has stated (like many others) that the current modern 147JHP's are light-years ahead of the original 147 loads that were dismal failures from the 1980's. Don't put words in his mouth and make statements out of context.
It wasn't me who brought up Mas as someone whose opinion should be valued and not questioned. I was correct in everything I posted. Grantham NH has 3000 people. Wonder how many criminals and shootings he has encounted there. He certainly was an may still be a distributor for Corbon. Does that make him partial to light and fast bullets? I doubt he was a police prosecutor. Did you get that from his Wickipedia page? He is not an attorney. Are you impressed he has been an expert witness? I'm not. It doesn't mean anything. I know lots of firearms instructors. You haven't told me anything about him to make me think his word is gospel about anything.




As for Evan, please read the post again before you post. I didn't put words in his mouth. I used the present tense when discussing his feelings about 147gr ammo. By the way, if you agree modern 147gr ammo works well, why the insistence people use +p+?


Finally, as to my credentials, eiither you believe that I'm bluffinng and I've got nothing, or I'm holding a Royal Flush and I'm just trying to draw more people into the pot before I blow them out of the water. (Before anyone tells me how dumb this is, this is a direct quote I stole from Merkavaboy from another thread)
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Old 07-03-2012, 19:17   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
My apologies, I don't remember what the article cited as the type of .357 round. This would have been about 23+ years ago give or take. I remember it was suppose to be one of those bump-n-rob jobs, but the perps didn't know it was a police officer in her POV. She wasn't wearing a vest though. It happened almost in front of her home and her roommate was also LAPD (dispatcher) who witnessed the event and called for help. The officer killed her attacker before passing out and survived emergency surgery. As far as I know, she returned to duty after a lengthy rehab.
No problem. I am glad she survived the encounter. Chalk one up for the good guys (or gals).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman92D View Post
She was shot with a Winchester 110-grain jhp. She still has a few frags from the bullet in her chest. One of her return fire 9mm rounds hit the suspect in the neck and dropped him.

She's a sergeant in training now.
Thank you Keith. I just saw your email on this.
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Old 07-03-2012, 19:50   #72
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Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Does anyone here doubt the effectiveness of the Federal 125 grain .357 magnum at 1400 to 1450?

Not one bit. Besides Cor-Bon DPX that is my carry load in my 357 Snubbies.
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Old 07-03-2012, 20:03   #73
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...I doubt he was a police prosecutor. Did you get that from his Wickipedia page? He is not an attorney.

What exactly is a police prosecutor???
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangeRover View Post
Finally, as to my credentials, eiither you believe that I'm bluffinng and I've got nothing, or I'm holding a Royal Flush and I'm just trying to draw more people into the pot before I blow them out of the water. (Before anyone tells me how dumb this is, this is a direct quote I stole from Merkavaboy from another thread)
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Old 07-03-2012, 20:31   #74
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What exactly is a police prosecutor???


This shows us exactly how ignorant you really are...
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Old 07-03-2012, 21:05   #75
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What exactly is a police prosecutor???
I suspect it's someone who is not an attorney who plays one in podunk jurisdictions to prosecute cases against garden variety criminals. These are towns that have so little crime they don't feel the need to have a real attorney prosecute their criminals for loitering and jaywalking etc.


I dare say you don't see any police prosecutors in cases of any significance.
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Old 07-03-2012, 21:10   #76
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It wasn't me who brought up Mas as someone whose opinion should be valued and not questioned. I was correct in everything I posted. Grantham NH has 3000 people. Wonder how many criminals and shootings he has encounted there. He certainly was an may still be a distributor for Corbon. Does that make him partial to light and fast bullets?
In the five years I've been a handgun owner and Glock Talk member I've read many comments from Mas Ayoob, and if memory serves his first choice in 9mm ammo is Winchester 127-grain +P+ with a very close second choice of Speer Gold Dot 124-grain +P.

He's also said good things about other ammos like the Federal 115-grain +P+ 9BPLE, etc ..., but I don't recall his ever specifically endorsing CorBon ammo although he may have --- I just don't remember it if he has.

I do know Mas Ayoob tells his audience that they should conduct their own investigations using their own firearms to determine which rounds best suit their own criteria. He is asked his opinion and he gives it; after that it's up to the individual to make his/her own determinations.

It's the individual's life that may someday be in jeopardy and nobody can do his/her homework for him/her in preparation for that event if and when it ever occurs.
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Old 07-03-2012, 22:27   #77
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Lets examine what Wolberg's article had to say:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler...hester_9mm.pdf

Page 10 of the Wound Ballistics Review Winter/91:

"Twenty-seven shootings were reviewed."

Wow, only 27 shootings? Seems like too small a number to use to be of any useful significance, right?

"Only shots into the torso that remained in the body for their entire penetration depth were included in this study".

"It should be noted that all head wounds, and bone hits were eliminated; this study deals only with shots that penetrated soft tissue of the torso and did not hit bone."


M&S used the same criteria in their study; only bullets that struck the torso (no head shots, no spine shots and no bone strikes along with the bullet remaining inside the attacker) were used for their study.

Funny that there's no whining from the Wolberg fans about him using the same "unscientific" criteria as M&S used. How hypocritical of you Fackler fanboys.

For years I have claimed that Wolberg's shootings were Cherry-Picked in order to prove his theory that ballistic gel is nearly identical to human tissue. And it wasn't too long ago that I was proven correct by the one and only Dr. Gary K. Roberts (aka: DocGKR on many gun forums:

DocGKR 01-07-2009 16:42.
"Yes, Wolberg was required to discount some OIS incidents from the study; in fact he was only allowed to include the ones that the Medical Examiner stated met the study’s published criteria—“Only shots into the torso that remained in the body for their entire penetration depth were included in this study”.

Beretta Forum, Post #40: http://www.berettaforum.net/vb/showt...t=43985&page=4

What? You don't say! Someone of "authority" confirming my suspicion that the Coroner had to Cherry-Pick shootings in order for Wolberg to prove his theory about ballistic gel and human tissue being nearly equal?

Critical thinking and analysis of Wolberg's study goes beyond what is written in plain sight. We need to look BEYOND what was merely penned by Wolberg and published in the Wound Ballistic Review.

We know that during the time frame in which Wolberg studied the shootings from San Diego SO, that there were more than just "27" perfect shootings for inclusion into his study. We also know that there were a lot more agencies out there that were using the same Win 147JHP subsonic that SDSO was using. I'm sure that such a famous ballistican such as Wolberg (or his buddies) could have accessed even more shooting data from these other agencies.

Well, the problem is that over the last 20+ years of shootings with the Win 147JHP subsonic (and it's cousins made by Rem & Fed) was a erratic street performer, (reported by those who have investigated, analyzed and studied the shootings from these rounds) and was known for its failures to expand and its excessive overpenetration. So, what about those bullets that were overlooked and EXCLUDED from his study, including bullets that either:

1) Didn't expand.
2) Failed to penetrate deeply enough.
3) Overpenetrated and exited the body.

Obviously every single bullet that failed to meet Wolberg's preconceived theory (as listed above but met all other criteria such as no head shots and no bone strikes) had to be excluded from his study, otherwise his study would be completely without merit. Failure to include evidence that contradicts one's hypothesis is pure and simply fraud and deceit.

That's right, FRAUD and DECEIT. No better than so-called global warming "scientists" who fudge their findings and exclude contradictory evidence in order to further their personal agenda and prove that humans are responsible for "global warming". Just like a District Attorney who refuses to release exculpatory evidence to the defense team in order to get a conviction for political gain. Just like NBC who chopped up George Zimmerman's 911 call in the Travon Martin case and aired it in order to dupe people into thinking that Zimmerman is a racist. Need I go on?
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Old 07-03-2012, 22:46   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pisc1024

What exactly is a police prosecutor???


Quote:
Originally Posted by RangeRover View Post
I suspect it's someone who is not an attorney who plays one in podunk jurisdictions to prosecute cases against garden variety criminals. These are towns that have so little crime they don't feel the need to have a real attorney prosecute their criminals for loitering and jaywalking etc.


I dare say you don't see any police prosecutors in cases of any significance.
Wow, you two must be the pride of your Hillbilly Klans:

http://www.pstc.nh.gov/TrainingCalendar.pdf

Page 10. (Psst: that's a "1" and a "0" put together).
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Old 07-03-2012, 23:22   #79
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
This shows us exactly how ignorant you really are...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pisc1024

What exactly is a police prosecutor???




Wow, you two must be the pride of your Hillbilly Klans:

http://www.pstc.nh.gov/TrainingCalendar.pdf

Page 10. (Psst: that's a "1" and a "0" put together).
Why are you so pissy pants?
Oh BTW I checked out what you linked... Let me guess... You didn't bother to read yet another link. Page ten dosn't explain WHAT a police prosacuter IS. That was the question I asked here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pisc1024 View Post
What exactly is a police prosecutor???
Also care to post your creds? Or are you just going to dodge the question and call me more names like a 5 year old?

Last edited by pisc1024; 07-03-2012 at 23:25..
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Old 07-03-2012, 23:24   #80
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I suspect it's someone who is not an attorney who plays one in podunk jurisdictions to prosecute cases against garden variety criminals. These are towns that have so little crime they don't feel the need to have a real attorney prosecute their criminals for loitering and jaywalking etc.


I dare say you don't see any police prosecutors in cases of any significance.
I would say you are right based on the useless link provided by Murkyboi.
It did say this:
Quote:
This course has a prerequisite requirement that the student be a Certified Police
Officer or employed as a NH Bar Certified Attorney working as a Police
Prosecutor.
in his useless link. That would lead me to believe that Mas can't be a police prosecutor due to the fact that he is not a Bar Certified attorney.

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