Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-04-2012, 00:29   #81
Merkavaboy
Code-7A KUZ769
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In The State Of Fruitloops (CA)
Posts: 5,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by pisc1024 View Post
I would say you are right based on the useless link provided by Murkyboi.
It did say this: in his useless link. That would lead me to believe that Mas can't be a police prosecutor due to the fact that he is not a Bar Certified attorney.


Really? And how is it that you know what his quals are?

I'll concede that point to you since he may retired from LE work in NH and concentrating on training, shooting and working cases as an expert witness when needed. (I don't think he's the golfing type).
__________________
"I spent the last two years of high school in a daze....attended classes sparingly, drank beer heavily, and tried drugs enthusiastically."
Barack Obama
One Bad Ass Mistake America
Merkavaboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 04:37   #82
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 13,099


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
Not one bit. Besides Cor-Bon DPX that is my carry load in my 357 Snubbies.
It's among the best.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 04:58   #83
RangeRover
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pisc1024

What exactly is a police prosecutor???

Wow, you two must be the pride of your Hillbilly Klans:

http://www.pstc.nh.gov/TrainingCalendar.pdf

Page 10. (Psst: that's a "1" and a "0" put together).
Thank you for providing the link that proves me correct. A police prosecutor doesn't have to even be an attorney. Did you notice the class size was 24 there so I'm guessing there are numerous police prosecutors in NH. That credential doesn't impress me. It kind of scares me as a matter of fact. On a constitutional basis, I'm a little worried that the same agency that arrests people also acts as the prosecutor. What's next, in times of tight budgets lets have police prosecutors and police judges too.

Your comment he spends his time being an expert witness doesn't impress me. Please re-read your screed about the "experts" and global warming. All of them can say they are expert witnesses as well and you did a nice job of putting them down.
RangeRover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 05:04   #84
RangeRover
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 47
To the OP, sorry for getting off track. The XPB bullet is good to go. It's on Doc's list.
RangeRover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 08:31   #85
481
Senior Member
 
481's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Need I go on?
No.

Once again, you've proven conclusively that you are incapable of comprehending anything you read- no matter how simple it might be.

Your most recent display of intellectual dishonesty is one of the most self-embarassing things that I've ever seen you do and for that, you have my pity.

Last edited by 481; 07-04-2012 at 08:33..
481 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 12:23   #86
pisc1024
Senior Member
 
pisc1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
[/b]

Really? And how is it that you know what his quals are?

I'll concede that point to you since he may retired from LE work in NH and concentrating on training, shooting and working cases as an expert witness when needed. (I don't think he's the golfing type).
I don't really care what his creds are; you’re the one who brought it up. Now that you mention it though, what are your creds again????
pisc1024 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 12:50   #87
DEADEYEGUY
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,347
Load has a good street reputation. I carried it years ago when some of the more modern rounds (HST, Rangers, Gold Dots were sometimes hard to find. They have the velocity on many of the 115gr. +P+ loads. Lots of energy.
But in the test mediums I shot them in they were bad for fragmentation and not the 12"-14" the F.B.I. likes. Shot some into two pine boards one and they fragmented like all hell but didn't go through the second board. But on a frontal shot with no barriers they would probably do a fine job. If the get 8" of penetration on a frontal shot that will usually get you to vitals.
DEADEYEGUY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 13:06   #88
RangeRover
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEADEYEGUY View Post
Load has a good street reputation. I carried it years ago when some of the more modern rounds (HST, Rangers, Gold Dots were sometimes hard to find. They have the velocity on many of the 115gr. +P+ loads. Lots of energy.
But in the test mediums I shot them in they were bad for fragmentation and not the 12"-14" the F.B.I. likes. Shot some into two pine boards one and they fragmented like all hell but didn't go through the second board. But on a frontal shot with no barriers they would probably do a fine job. If the get 8" of penetration on a frontal shot that will usually get you to vitals.
Was it the XPB bullet? I believe that is the one used in their DPX line. That is the one I assume the OP is refering to.
RangeRover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 14:08   #89
RangeRover
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
In the five years I've been a handgun owner and Glock Talk member I've read many comments from Mas Ayoob, and if memory serves his first choice in 9mm ammo is Winchester 127-grain +P+ with a very close second choice of Speer Gold Dot 124-grain +P.

He's also said good things about other ammos like the Federal 115-grain +P+ 9BPLE, etc ..., but I don't recall his ever specifically endorsing CorBon ammo although he may have --- I just don't remember it if he has.

I do know Mas Ayoob tells his audience that they should conduct their own investigations using their own firearms to determine which rounds best suit their own criteria. He is asked his opinion and he gives it; after that it's up to the individual to make his/her own determinations.

It's the individual's life that may someday be in jeopardy and nobody can do his/her homework for him/her in preparation for that event if and when it ever occurs.
Are there any standard pressure loads in 9mm whose terminal ballistics Mas believes is acceptable. I suspect not. For all the criticism Roberts gets, both loads you mentioned are on his approved list.
RangeRover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 17:57   #90
unit1069
Senior Member
 
unit1069's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So. Central US
Posts: 8,829
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangeRover View Post
Are there any standard pressure loads in 9mm whose terminal ballistics Mas believes is acceptable. I suspect not. For all the criticism Roberts gets, both loads you mentioned are on his approved list.
I'm not Mas Ayoob's spokesman but I do recall that he's written that at least one modern standard pressure 147-grain self-defense JHP round has achieved a good degree of street cred. I can't say for sure what that round is but it might be the round issued to LAPD and he may have mentioned more than just one round in this weight.

Aside from that the idea I get from reading his input is that Mas relies on what LEO issue rounds have proved themselves over a period of time, not necessarily whether the round is standard pressure, +P, or +P+. Speaking for myself I think most of the LEO comments made here and on other web sites indicate that a preponderance of issue ammo is of the +P variety, resulting in the most verifiable data.

About Roberts' list: I have not come across any verified successful shootings for some of the rounds he lists, like the Federal 135-grain Tactical Bonded +P. If there's nothing more than just calibrated gel tests to recommend this particular round (and/or others on that list) then I'll lean strongly toward self-defense rounds that have established a verifiable record.
__________________
Rocket Scientist

Last edited by unit1069; 07-04-2012 at 18:28..
unit1069 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 18:10   #91
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 15,350
Quote:
Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
He's also said good things about other ammos like the Federal 115-grain +P+ 9BPLE, etc ..., but I don't recall his ever specifically endorsing CorBon ammo although he may have --- I just don't remember it if he has.
He did, back in like the '90s. You can see him doing so on some old YouTube videos in this series:

cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 18:34   #92
pisc1024
Senior Member
 
pisc1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 635
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
He did, back in like the '90s. You can see him doing so on some old YouTube videos in this series:

Massad Ayoob - Shoot To Live - 1/8 - YouTube
That was an interesting video that I have never seen. To be quite frank, his background is a little underwhelming. I had always thought that he was at some point in his life a full time officer. He pretty much spent his life writing, and studying about other people’s incidents. I loved the part where he said that he would "only take a clean case". Not sure what that means, but it sounds to me like the PBA in the South East, from personal experience I can say those dudes are garbage.

Last edited by pisc1024; 07-04-2012 at 20:18..
pisc1024 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 23:41   #93
spcwes
Senior Member
 
spcwes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by pisc1024 View Post
That was an interesting video that I have never seen. To be quite frank, his background is a little underwhelming. I had always thought that he was at some point in his life a full time officer. He pretty much spent his life writing, and studying about other people’s incidents. I loved the part where he said that he would "only take a clean case". Not sure what that means, but it sounds to me like the PBA in the South East, from personal experience I can say those dudes are garbage.
What I know of the man is he has spent a good chunk of years studying SD and shootings and trying to help the community along.

The clean case he is speaking of would be one in which crimes were not committed and the shooter has folks trying to railroad them in essence. People need to stop preaching about the man to be honest.

Mass has never once as far back as I can remember said this is "the way it should be done" but more of a "this is A way it can be done" and take it with a broad stroke on what that is meaning.

He studies "shootings" in the literal term and has a crap load of info and real life research on the topic. He IS an expert witness and is recognized as one and testifies on behalf of not only law enforcement but civilians both that are involved in good shoots. That is something not many of the "professionals" in the shooting/training industry can say and I admire it to be honest.

And regardless of how some folks have gone down a childish rant calling names and flinging mud I would be damn glad to have him in a court room defending me or giving expert testimony on my behalf for shooting someone.

I dare say this but I think it needs to be said, some of you folks in this thread need to stop acting like whinny little kids and have adult polite conversations. If you don't agree with someone on a topic they post do so politely or don't at all.
__________________
"We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American perception that each individual is accountable for his/her actions." -Ronald Reagan-

Last edited by spcwes; 07-04-2012 at 23:41..
spcwes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2012, 09:32   #94
isp2605
Senior Member
 
isp2605's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: IL
Posts: 4,987
Quote:
Originally Posted by spcwes View Post
Not my question but I will answer it for my side. 5 Officer involved shootings I have assisted investigations on, 6 outside department shootings.
That's nice. For reference I was case agent on 4 of our shootings in just one weekend. The worst part about that weekend was trying to keep the brass updated and keeping them straight which shooting was which.
Over an 8 yr period I was on or supervising the shooting team I was involved in the investigation of quite a few. These weren't "assisting" these were working the cases. Lost count over the years when including all the other agencies we were called in to do their shooting cases. A lot of agencies will call us in to do their cases as an outside agency. These aren't "assisting" investigations. These are shooting cases we investigate start to finish. I can't think of a time when we didn't have 2-3 active cases minimum going. Most of the time between our shootings and other agencies we had a number of cases going on.

Quote:
Is it ok if I continue to post on this topic sir?
Sure you can. At least you have some actual experience assisting instead of most who have never seen a hole in a body or wouldn't have a clue about a shooting investigation.

Quote:
So all in all a round getting to the center of the problem regardless of arms, legs, sheetrock, glass, denim, leather, latex or what ever else you can think is probably what you want to see out of your SD ammo.
No shooting situation will ever be like the last one or like the next one. People don't wear the same clothes as everyone else, not everyone drives the exact same year and make of car, not all sheetrock is the same, not all glass is the same, not all leather is the same, not all angles where rds hit are the same. With each of those factors being different then combining all those factors a shoot will never be like the last or like the next.

As I explained to the OP off list, just saying a rd hit someone COM doesn't tell me a thing about the shooting, neither whether it failed nor performed. I need to know exactly where it entered, angle, what it hit going in, what it hit while in, where it ended up. I gave him 2 examples which happened on the same shooting. One of our guys was hit in the head with a 115 BPLE. He dropped but immediately got back up and came up with his shotgun. People hear that and think the BPLE must be a failure. However, it's not until you look at the actual hit that you can understand what happened. It was a grazing wound that hit along side his skull. Left a good scar but it wasn't a stopping hit.
But after he got back up he took a 2nd rd in the wrist which traveled along his forearm and exited near his elbow. That one took him down out of action. Uninformed people will think how can a hit in the arm be a stopping shot. Think of hitting your funny bone really hard then multiply that many many times over. Lots of nerve damage along with cutting the movement of the arm took him out.
So in that 1 shooting we had a head shot that didn't stop but an extremity shot that did. It's not until you study what is hit and what is in those areas of the body that a person can really understand what occurred.
In that same shooting the bad guy took a 12 ga slug thru and thru across his chest. The slug nearly removed one arm as it hit the bone, entered his chest taking out a rib, went thru both lungs and clipped the top of his heart, took out another rib on exit, removed most of the bicept muscle in the other arm. The BG dropped in place but for a few seconds he still had enough fight left that he tried getting to his dropped BHP. Had he not lost the use of both arms could he have continued the fight? We'll never know. I ended up case agent on that one too.
__________________
183rd FBINA

Last edited by isp2605; 07-05-2012 at 09:45..
isp2605 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2012, 13:15   #95
pisc1024
Senior Member
 
pisc1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 635
Quote:
Originally Posted by spcwes View Post
What I know of the man is he has spent a good chunk of years studying SD and shootings and trying to help the community along.

The clean case he is speaking of would be one in which crimes were not committed and the shooter has folks trying to railroad them in essence. People need to stop preaching about the man to be honest.

Mass has never once as far back as I can remember said this is "the way it should be done" but more of a "this is A way it can be done" and take it with a broad stroke on what that is meaning.

He studies "shootings" in the literal term and has a crap load of info and real life research on the topic. He IS an expert witness and is recognized as one and testifies on behalf of not only law enforcement but civilians both that are involved in good shoots. That is something not many of the "professionals" in the shooting/training industry can say and I admire it to be honest.

And regardless of how some folks have gone down a childish rant calling names and flinging mud I would be damn glad to have him in a court room defending me or giving expert testimony on my behalf for shooting someone.

I dare say this but I think it needs to be said, some of you folks in this thread need to stop acting like whinny little kids and have adult polite conversations. If you don't agree with someone on a topic they post do so politely or don't at all.
I was surprised when I saw that video. I have listened for years as people have put him on a pedestal, and I guess I just thought that he had more time in LE. That's all, my post wasn't a swipe at him or anyone else, just a post from someone who was a little surprised. It's understandable how it could be taken as more than that though.
As for the clean case, yes I understand what that is, and I understand his reasoning behind it. I guess it is about perspective, and it is nice I'm sure to be able to pick and choose your cases. As for him being an expert witness, I personally don't find that to be a huge deal. It's cool that he has that on his résumé. That's just me though, once again not a personal swipe at him or anyone else. All that said, I agree with you, I would be happy to have him defend me in court too.

As for the childish antics, that is a byproduct of being on an internet chat forum. I don’t like it much, but I deal with it. If it gets to the point where I don’t want to deal with it anymore then I just leave.
pisc1024 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2012, 07:54   #96
spcwes
Senior Member
 
spcwes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by pisc1024 View Post
I was surprised when I saw that video. I have listened for years as people have put him on a pedestal, and I guess I just thought that he had more time in LE. That's all, my post wasn't a swipe at him or anyone else, just a post from someone who was a little surprised. It's understandable how it could be taken as more than that though.
As for the clean case, yes I understand what that is, and I understand his reasoning behind it. I guess it is about perspective, and it is nice I'm sure to be able to pick and choose your cases. As for him being an expert witness, I personally don't find that to be a huge deal. It's cool that he has that on his résumé. That's just me though, once again not a personal swipe at him or anyone else. All that said, I agree with you, I would be happy to have him defend me in court too.

As for the childish antics, that is a byproduct of being on an internet chat forum. I don’t like it much, but I deal with it. If it gets to the point where I don’t want to deal with it anymore then I just leave.
Pisc,

The qoute above was not meaning the entire response was directed at you bud. Sorry to have made it seem that way. You are by far not the worst in the thread with the child like responses. There are folks fighting on here and what not.

I am just saying that because of biased opinions in regards to terminal ballistics (my choice is better herrrrrdeeerrrrr) that a man or several men in that case are having years of investigations and studies discounted when most doing the name calling and **** talking did their research by reading the information posted by others.

These are good places to talk it over and work through these topics.
__________________
"We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American perception that each individual is accountable for his/her actions." -Ronald Reagan-
spcwes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2012, 16:05   #97
Coffee Dog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 534
Quote:
Originally Posted by spcwes View Post
Pisc,

The qoute above was not meaning the entire response was directed at you bud. Sorry to have made it seem that way. You are by far not the worst in the thread with the child like responses. There are folks fighting on here and what not.

I am just saying that because of biased opinions in regards to terminal ballistics (my choice is better herrrrrdeeerrrrr) that a man or several men in that case are having years of investigations and studies discounted when most doing the name calling and **** talking did their research by reading the information posted by others.

These are good places to talk it over and work through these topics.
AMEN! I totally support you!
Coffee Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2012, 20:15   #98
pisc1024
Senior Member
 
pisc1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 635
Quote:
Originally Posted by spcwes View Post
Pisc,

The qoute above was not meaning the entire response was directed at you bud. Sorry to have made it seem that way. You are by far not the worst in the thread with the child like responses. There are folks fighting on here and what not.

I am just saying that because of biased opinions in regards to terminal ballistics (my choice is better herrrrrdeeerrrrr) that a man or several men in that case are having years of investigations and studies discounted when most doing the name calling and **** talking did their research by reading the information posted by others.

These are good places to talk it over and work through these topics.
No worries, I didn't think that it was directed at me, I was just pointing out a tactic that has worked for me from time to time. I agree with you 100%, some people get their panties in a twist about something that someone posted on an internet forum for no good reason. I have always been of the mind that if a particular load works for you then go for it. I have my opinions, strong ones at that, and sometimes am not above getting dragged into a childish debate. My opinions, like yours seem to be, are based on real life experiences, I guess that is why they are strong ones. It is a character flaw of mine I guess. I just get a little miffed when people disregard good solid repeatable data that doesn’t jive with their perspective with no solid reasoning behind it. Some people seem to have a particular distain for specific groups or government entities based on some perceived wrong doing in the past.

Last edited by pisc1024; 07-06-2012 at 20:16..
pisc1024 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2012, 18:52   #99
Rick305
ra1sales.com
 
Rick305's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 493
My g19 is loaded with 115gr +p CorBon high velocity JHP 's (older box -- store had both)

Not the DPX -- my box is "high velocity"
__________________
19
Rick305 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2012, 10:21   #100
Coffee Dog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 534
Thank you everyone for the information you have given to me on my thread!
Coffee Dog is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:01.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 924
257 Members
667 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31