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Old 07-03-2012, 17:32   #1
Walt_NC
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Old Testament: Love it or leave it?

Christians, help me out. I have found that many of the Christians that I meet hold widely varying positions on the validity of the Old Testament. So what's the deal. Is it or is it not the word of God? Is it any more or less valid than the New Testament?
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Old 07-03-2012, 18:04   #2
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Yes the OT is the word of God and it all points to Jesus.
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Old 07-03-2012, 21:43   #3
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It's just as important as the new, as it shows all His prophecies coming true.

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Old 07-03-2012, 21:44   #4
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Just as important as the NT

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Old 07-03-2012, 21:45   #5
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How could you take Jesus at His word without the Old Testament
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Old 07-03-2012, 23:31   #6
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It all still applies, except the bad stuff.
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Old 07-04-2012, 02:03   #7
G23Gen4TX
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Yes the OT is the word of God and it all points to Jesus.
How is that?
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Old 07-04-2012, 06:05   #8
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Yes the OT is the word of God and it all points to Jesus.
How do you get from the genocidal tribal war god of the OT to the pacifist god of the NT?
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Old 07-04-2012, 06:37   #9
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How is that?

Look it up. There are 200ish prophecies Jesus fulfilled.

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Old 07-04-2012, 06:50   #10
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Christians, help me out. I have found that many of the Christians that I meet hold widely varying positions on the validity of the Old Testament. So what's the deal. Is it or is it not the word of God? Is it any more or less valid than the New Testament?
I consider that the OT and NT together comprise the Bible. Neither is complete without the other. I do not subscribe to a dictation theory of inspiration. I understand that there is in the OT, as there is in the NT, material that pertains to a particular place/time as well as material that is of eternal significance. I read the OT in the light of Christ. Where there is a conflict, I consider that Jesus is the final and last word of God on the matter and act accordingly. In fact, I'd be willing to say that if everyone were a "red letter" Christian, the supposed concerns expressed and other red herrings occasionally noted by some would be of not real consequence.
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Old 07-04-2012, 07:28   #11
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Look it up. There are 200ish prophecies Jesus fulfilled.

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Such as? Can you name and justify one?
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Old 07-04-2012, 08:13   #12
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1 Who has believed what we have heard?[a]
And who has the arm of the LORD(A) been revealed to?(B)
2 He grew up before Him like a young plant(C)
and like a root out of dry ground.
He didnít have an impressive form
or majesty that we should look at Him,
no appearance that we should desire Him.(D)
3 He was despised and rejected by men,(E)
a man of suffering who knew what sickness was.(F)
He was like someone people turned away from;[b]
He was despised, and we didnít value Him.


4 Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses,
and He carried our pains;(G)
but we in turn regarded Him stricken,
struck down by God,(H) and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced because of our transgressions,(I)
crushed because of our iniquities;(J)
punishment(K) for our peace was on Him,
and we are healed by His wounds.(L)
6 We all went astray like sheep;(M)
we all have turned to our own way;
and the LORD has punished Him
for[c] the iniquity(N) of us all.(O)

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet He did not open His mouth.
Like a lamb led to the slaughter
and like a sheep silent before her shearers,
He did not open His mouth.(P)
8 He was taken away because of oppression and judgment;
and who considered His fate?[d]
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
He was struck because of my peopleís rebellion.
9 They[e] made His grave with the wicked
and with a rich man at His death,(Q)
although He had done no violence
and had not spoken deceitfully.(R)
10 Yet the LORD was pleased(S) to crush Him severely.[f](T)
When[g] You make Him a restitution offering,(U)
He will see His seed, He will prolong His days,
and by His hand, the LORDís pleasure will be accomplished.(V)
11 He will see it[h] out of His anguish,
and He will be satisfied with His knowledge.
My righteous(W) Servant(X) will justify many,(Y)
and He will carry their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give Him[i] the many as a portion,
and He will receive[j] the mighty as spoil,
because He submitted Himself to death,(Z)
and was counted among the rebels;(AA)
yet He bore the sin of many(AB)
and interceded for the rebels.(AC)

Who does this sound like? This is certainly one pretty specific prophecy that was fulfilled and not denied by even the jews. Josephus(jewish historian captured by the romans) even recorded it. I have a bunch more sitting in front of me. You asked for one. It's justified by outside sources that gain nothing for recording it. I too didn't believe in Jesus or God at one point and studied it from a skeptic pov. The evidence is just to compelling to ignore if one gives it an honest look at some point. I consider myself lucky, in that, I wasn't raised to "just believe". I'm the type to ask the hard questions. Not to mention, we are called to "test all things" in the bible and to give a defense to our faith.
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Old 07-04-2012, 08:18   #13
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
Such as? Can you name and justify one?
If you have a serious interest, you can find not only those O.T. passages (usually messanic in nature) that refer/point to Jesus as well as how many of those O.T. passages are lived out/full-filled by Jesus in the N.T. era. There are numerous multiple online sources available. Many study Bibles will have list of such O.T. passages along with the corresponding N.T. references. If you only want to debate, wait for someone to provide you the information. If you want to know the answer to your question, consult one of the sources at your convenience.
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Old 07-04-2012, 08:20   #14
Vic Hays
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droid noob View Post
1 Who has believed what we have heard?[a]
And who has the arm of the LORD(A) been revealed to?(B)
2 He grew up before Him like a young plant(C)
and like a root out of dry ground.
He didn’t have an impressive form
or majesty that we should look at Him,
no appearance that we should desire Him.(D)
3 He was despised and rejected by men,(E)
a man of suffering who knew what sickness was.(F)
He was like someone people turned away from;[b]
He was despised, and we didn’t value Him.


4 Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses,
and He carried our pains;(G)
but we in turn regarded Him stricken,
struck down by God,(H) and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced because of our transgressions,(I)
crushed because of our iniquities;(J)
punishment(K) for our peace was on Him,
and we are healed by His wounds.(L)
6 We all went astray like sheep;(M)
we all have turned to our own way;
and the LORD has punished Him
for[c] the iniquity(N) of us all.(O)

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet He did not open His mouth.
Like a lamb led to the slaughter
and like a sheep silent before her shearers,
He did not open His mouth.(P)
8 He was taken away because of oppression and judgment;
and who considered His fate?[d]
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
He was struck because of my people’s rebellion.
9 They[e] made His grave with the wicked
and with a rich man at His death,(Q)
although He had done no violence
and had not spoken deceitfully.(R)
10 Yet the LORD was pleased(S) to crush Him severely.[f](T)
When[g] You make Him a restitution offering,(U)
He will see His seed, He will prolong His days,
and by His hand, the LORD’s pleasure will be accomplished.(V)
11 He will see it[h] out of His anguish,
and He will be satisfied with His knowledge.
My righteous(W) Servant(X) will justify many,(Y)
and He will carry their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give Him[i] the many as a portion,
and He will receive[j] the mighty as spoil,
because He submitted Himself to death,(Z)
and was counted among the rebels;(AA)
yet He bore the sin of many(AB)
and interceded for the rebels.(AC)

Who does this sound like? This is certainly one pretty specific prophecy that was fulfilled and not denied by even the jews. Josephus(jewish historian captured by the romans) even recorded it. I have a bunch more sitting in front of me. You asked for one. It's justified by outside sources that gain nothing for recording it. I too didn't believe in Jesus or God at one point and studied it from a skeptic pov. The evidence is just to compelling to ignore if one gives it an honest look at some point. I consider myself lucky, in that, I wasn't raised to "just believe". I'm the type to ask the hard questions. Not to mention, we are called to "test all things" in the bible and to give a defense to our faith.
This describes the Jesus of the New Testament. This is the Jesus that we all need. This is just not the Jesus that most people want.

The New Testament is the Old Testament explained.

I Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
10:7 Neither be you idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10:10 Neither murmur you, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
10:11 Now all these things happened to them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the world are come.
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John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Last edited by Vic Hays; 07-04-2012 at 08:35..
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Old 07-04-2012, 08:22   #15
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Plainly, it sets the stage for the arrival of Christ.

If you reject any part of the Bible why would you accept any of it?
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Old 07-04-2012, 08:41   #16
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Plainly, it sets the stage for the arrival of Christ.

If you reject any part of the Bible why would you accept any of it?
True, and the New Testament writers, including Christ were constantly referring to the Old. It is what they had and the basis of the New.

Also, has anyone tried to build a two story house without the first floor?
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:21   #17
Vic Hays
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The Old Testament and the New Testament are two witnesses.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three score days, clothed in sackcloth.
11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceeds out of their mouth, and devours their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
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John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:47   #18
FCoulter
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
Such as? Can you name and justify one?
Just a few to keep you busy.

http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_28prophecies.pdf
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:50   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droid noob View Post
1 Who has believed what we have heard?[a]
And who has the arm of the LORD(A) been revealed to?(B)
2 He grew up before Him like a young plant(C)
and like a root out of dry ground.
He didnít have an impressive form
or majesty that we should look at Him,
no appearance that we should desire Him.(D)
3 He was despised and rejected by men,(E)
a man of suffering who knew what sickness was.(F)
He was like someone people turned away from;[b]
He was despised, and we didnít value Him.


4 Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses,
and He carried our pains;(G)
but we in turn regarded Him stricken,
struck down by God,(H) and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced because of our transgressions,(I)
crushed because of our iniquities;(J)
punishment(K) for our peace was on Him,
and we are healed by His wounds.(L)
6 We all went astray like sheep;(M)
we all have turned to our own way;
and the LORD has punished Him
for[c] the iniquity(N) of us all.(O)

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet He did not open His mouth.
Like a lamb led to the slaughter
and like a sheep silent before her shearers,
He did not open His mouth.(P)
8 He was taken away because of oppression and judgment;
and who considered His fate?[d]
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
He was struck because of my peopleís rebellion.
9 They[e] made His grave with the wicked
and with a rich man at His death,(Q)
although He had done no violence
and had not spoken deceitfully.(R)
10 Yet the LORD was pleased(S) to crush Him severely.[f](T)
When[g] You make Him a restitution offering,(U)
He will see His seed, He will prolong His days,
and by His hand, the LORDís pleasure will be accomplished.(V)
11 He will see it[h] out of His anguish,
and He will be satisfied with His knowledge.
My righteous(W) Servant(X) will justify many,(Y)
and He will carry their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give Him[i] the many as a portion,
and He will receive[j] the mighty as spoil,
because He submitted Himself to death,(Z)
and was counted among the rebels;(AA)
yet He bore the sin of many(AB)
and interceded for the rebels.(AC)

Who does this sound like? This is certainly one pretty specific prophecy that was fulfilled and not denied by even the jews. Josephus(jewish historian captured by the romans) even recorded it. I have a bunch more sitting in front of me. You asked for one. It's justified by outside sources that gain nothing for recording it. I too didn't believe in Jesus or God at one point and studied it from a skeptic pov. The evidence is just to compelling to ignore if one gives it an honest look at some point. I consider myself lucky, in that, I wasn't raised to "just believe". I'm the type to ask the hard questions. Not to mention, we are called to "test all things" in the bible and to give a defense to our faith.
Yes, that points to a Messiah but is says nothing about Jesus being the Messiah. As far as I know, there is nothing in the Old Testament that points to Jesus as the Messiah. To get there you have to start with the assumption and work backwards. That's what the New Testament does. If you don't believe me, ask the Jews.

Messianic thinking is common in cultures that seem themselves being destroyed by outside forces and realize there is nothing they can do about it. The current government of Iran believes its is preparing the way the Messiah.
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:53   #20
muscogee
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Once again, those quotes require a real stretch of logic to say they point to Jesus.
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