GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-07-2014, 15:53   #1
FourthPointOfContact
Senior Member
 
FourthPointOfContact's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 526
Arrested for "Carry in Unathorized Location" - Gun Show

A gentleman (SJ) from Georgia was attending a gun show being held at the Farmer's Market, a Georgia Department of Agriculture complex located in Forest Park. The Exhibition Hall is a 26,000 sq ft building that can be rented/leased to private organizations for their venues. The complex has a USDA office, but that building isn't available for rental.

By what means it was determined that the gentleman was carrying isn't known, nor germane. But the result was an arrest for a violation of OCGA 16-11-127.

SJ is being represented by John R. Monroe, who specializes in firearms and second amendment issues.
__________________
"To learn who rules over you, simply find who you are not allowed to criticize" -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
FourthPointOfContact is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 15:57   #2
steve1988
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ft. Meade, MD
Posts: 1,337
That is a reminder that current carry laws can still be complex in relatively free states. I doubt that the gentleman knew that he was breaking the law at all. Lesson of the day: If you are going to carry, you need to factor in the legality of where you are carrying into your situational awareness. Otherwise, things could get expensive.
__________________
Thomas Paine: "...arms...discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. ...Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them."
steve1988 is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 16:33   #3
railfancwb
Senior Member
 
railfancwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Shelbyville, Tennessee TN
Posts: 4,721
Was he carrying a "loaded" gun?

The gun shows I attend, mostly in middle Tennessee, forbid the carrying of loaded guns into the show. The shows have been on government owned fairgrounds, privately owned buildings, and National Guard Armorys.

One presenter has a table where any unloaded guns you wish to carry in are secured with cable ties to prevent loading them inside the premises. Yeah, I know, cable ties are easily removed. The point is to prevent the negligent discharge.

So I wonder if the arrest was related more to violating show rules than to where the show took place.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
"Never give to your friend any power that your enemy may some day inherit." -- Paul Weyrich
railfancwb is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 16:38   #4
ranger1968
Senior Member
 
ranger1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,800
Quote:
Originally Posted by FourthPointOfContact View Post
A gentleman (SJ) from Georgia was attending a gun show being held at the Farmer's Market, a Georgia Department of Agriculture complex located in Forest Park. The Exhibition Hall is a 26,000 sq ft building that can be rented/leased to private organizations for their venues. The complex has a USDA office, but that building isn't available for rental.

By what means it was determined that the gentleman was carrying isn't known, nor germane. But the result was an arrest for a violation of OCGA 16-11-127.

SJ is being represented by John R. Monroe, who specializes in firearms and second amendment issues.
Was he in the USDA office? Do you have a link to any of the documents or the case report?
__________________
Train for the FIGHT! come see us at
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
ranger1968 is online now  
Old 11-07-2014, 16:50   #5
ranger1968
Senior Member
 
ranger1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,800
Nevermind, I found it;

http://www.georgiacarry.com/state/go...2914_FINAL.pdf

This is old news, since this happened some time ago, and the criminal case was already decided, in favor of Mr. Leising (and good for him, looks like the correct outcome, the system worked) , so it's a done deal....

Why wait to post it, and then post it like it just happened; "Man Arrested!" vs "Man Aquitted!" ?
__________________
Train for the FIGHT! come see us at
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
ranger1968 is online now  
Old 11-07-2014, 17:33   #6
FourthPointOfContact
Senior Member
 
FourthPointOfContact's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 526
editing...
__________________
"To learn who rules over you, simply find who you are not allowed to criticize" -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by FourthPointOfContact; 11-07-2014 at 17:33..
FourthPointOfContact is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 17:56   #7
FourthPointOfContact
Senior Member
 
FourthPointOfContact's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 526
Quote:
Originally Posted by railfancwb View Post
Was he carrying a "loaded" gun?
So I wonder if the arrest was related more to violating show rules than to where the show took place.
Loaded or unloaded, openly carried or concealed is immaterial to being a violation of State law.

It was a violation of the gun show rules for him to have a loaded firearm.

He wasn't charged with violating the show's rules.
__________________
"To learn who rules over you, simply find who you are not allowed to criticize" -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
FourthPointOfContact is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 18:03   #8
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 45,571
Blog Entries: 64
Below is the document ranger1968 linked to in his post.

It is a long read, but worth it.

The Judge dismissed all three charges against the gentleman carrying. It wasn't cut and dry, however. Changes in the law after the incident occurred made that easier for the Court.

If you have questions, please address them to the OP.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf LEISING_EXCERPT_102914_FINAL.pdf (72.6 KB, 14 views)
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921

Last edited by RussP; 11-07-2014 at 18:04..
RussP is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 18:10   #9
FourthPointOfContact
Senior Member
 
FourthPointOfContact's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 526
How is a directed verdict not 'cut and dried'?
To quote the presiding judge, "... A motion for directed verdict means that the defense is saying that if you take the evidence produced by the State, construe that evidence in a light most favorable to the State, that they have not proven that these crimes have been committed..."

Typically, a judge orders a directed verdict after finding that no reasonable jury could reach a decision to the contrary.
__________________
"To learn who rules over you, simply find who you are not allowed to criticize" -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by FourthPointOfContact; 11-07-2014 at 18:38..
FourthPointOfContact is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 18:19   #10
ranger1968
Senior Member
 
ranger1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,800
Why did you post it as though it were something that just happened, and never make mention of the fact that the case was disposed?
__________________
Train for the FIGHT! come see us at
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
ranger1968 is online now  
Old 11-07-2014, 18:23   #11
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Deaf Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Texican in Texas (where else?)
Posts: 9,920
In Texas they always put 30.06 signs up at the entrances of Gun Shows so no one can mistake what the law says.

Deaf
__________________
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 18:24   #12
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 45,571
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by FourthPointOfContact View Post
How is a directed verdict not 'cut and dried'?
Typically, a judge orders a directed verdict after finding that no reasonable jury could reach a decision to the contrary.

What change to which law do you think had any effect on this case?
I just read the Court's comments.

Not cut and dry is in reference to the State's charges being affected by the change in the law.

If you have to ask, "What change to which law," I suggest reading the document ranger1968 linked to, that I attached.

Edited to add: The primary was private property owner leasing to private entities.

Could you explain that change in Georgia law for everyone?
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921

Last edited by RussP; 11-08-2014 at 05:25..
RussP is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 18:32   #13
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 45,571
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by FourthPointOfContact View Post
...The complex has a USDA office, but that building isn't available for rental...
I read trough the document three times. I did not read where that was stated as a fact of the case. Would you mind quoting the part referencing it?

Thanks...
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 18:35   #14
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 45,571
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger1968 View Post
Why did you post it as though it were something that just happened, and never make mention of the fact that the case was disposed?
I'll take this one. The date on the document is October 29, 2014, that's pretty recent...

The arrest was made October, 2013.
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921

Last edited by RussP; 11-08-2014 at 04:25..
RussP is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 19:44   #15
FourthPointOfContact
Senior Member
 
FourthPointOfContact's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 526
"... The complex has a USDA office, but that building isn't available for rental."
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
I read trough the document three times. I did not read where that was stated as a fact of the case. Would you mind quoting the part referencing it?
It's not in the document you posted.

The theory had been raised that because government employees could be in the building that it therefore became a 'government building' and hence was an unauthorized location. One law enforcement officer posited that all it took for would be 'a janitor cleaning a restroom on the highway' to make a building off-limits.
__________________
"To learn who rules over you, simply find who you are not allowed to criticize" -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
FourthPointOfContact is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 21:05   #16
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 45,571
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by FourthPointOfContact View Post
"... The complex has a USDA office, but that building isn't available for rental."

It's not in the document you posted.

The theory had been raised that because government employees could be in the building that it therefore became a 'government building' and hence was an unauthorized location. One law enforcement officer posited that all it took for would be 'a janitor cleaning a restroom on the highway' to make a building off-limits.
Obviously there is another document. Do you have a link to that so we might read it?
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 11-07-2014, 21:51   #17
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 45,571
Blog Entries: 64
Since this is a decided case, FourthPointOfContact, what is the importance of the outcome for those with a Georgia weapons carry license?
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921

Last edited by RussP; 11-08-2014 at 04:49..
RussP is offline  
Old 11-08-2014, 05:36   #18
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 45,571
Blog Entries: 64
You know, lets make this easier.

From georgiacarry.org...
Quote:
Court Rejects Criminal Charges For Carrying At Gun Show
Quote:
The State Court of Clayton County has issued a directed verdict of acquittal in a case where a GWL holder was charged with carrying a gun to a gun show. The state charged Jeff Leising with carrying in an unauthorized location, criminal trespass, and reckless conduct based on allegations that Leising, a GWL holder, carried a loaded gun while at a Gun Runners show at the state Farmers Market in Forest Park. After the state rested in the jury trial on the case, Lesing moved for a directed verdict on all counts. After discussion with counsel, the judge agreed that under the evidence introduced, Leising could not be convicted. Included in the court’s ruling were a couple noteworthy findings, including 1) a GWL holder can carry in a government building, even if there is security screening, unless he is notified he fails to clear security and fails to leave.; and 2) private entities leasing public property have no power to ban GWL holders from carrying firearms on the property. A transcript of the directed verdict portion of the trial may be found here.
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 11-08-2014, 05:56   #19
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 45,571
Blog Entries: 64
As to the reckless conduct charge, the Judge asks the State's attorney some questions. Her responses are, well, humorous.

The exchange begins on Page 13, Line 25 of the attached document above. I've removed the Line Numbers for readability:
Quote:
Quote:
MS. JONES-PARKER: As to Count 3, the reckless conduct, Your Honor, I will concede that most of the evidence that I presented that has come out from the 3 officers go to the reckless conduct count. I think that the State has definitely presented a prima facie case on the reckless conduct.

THE COURT: Can the mere carrying of a loaded firearm somewhere in the state of Georgia be considered reckless conduct?

MS. JONES-PARKER: Not just somewhere in Georgia but where there is the selling and exchange of firearms, and where the owners have told you not to do that, not to bring it onto the property.

THE COURT: Why does that make it reckless conduct?

MS. JONES-PARKER: As the evidence that came out, Your Honor, from numerous witnesses, Officer Waltrip indicated that there could be accidental discharge. They wanted to deter accidental discharge.

THE COURT: Can't there be an accidental discharge any time? I suppose it's always possible that a weapon could accidentally discharge. But isn't it true that there are many locations in the state of Georgia where a licensed firearm carrier can carry, legally carry a weapon in close proximity to many people, close quarters to many people, and why would that not be reckless conduct but this could be?

MS. JONES-PARKER: I think that the basic difference between carrying this gun on a crowded MARTA train versus bringing it into a gun show, a loaded firearm into a gun show, will basically boil down -- and I believe that's where he alluded to in his argument -- basically, Your Honor, it boils down to the fact that he was told not to do that, and he received --

THE COURT: Well, that might make it carrying a weapon in an unauthorized location. I agree with that.

MS. JONES-PARKER: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Does it make it reckless conduct though? Just because somebody says you can't, does that make it any more reckless than if it's a place where you can?

MS. JONES-PARKER: I think, Your Honor, the fact that this defendant knew and intentionally decided to go into this gun show, where there is the exchange of firearms and the buying and selling of firearms, knowing that this behavior was not wanted on those premises. I would just rest on the evidence that was presented, that it was reckless in nature.

THE COURT: Let me rule what I'm going to rule at this point. If you wish to address anything else, Mr. Monroe, I'll allow you to close. First of all on the reckless conduct, I grant the motion for directed verdict. I do not believe that the mere carrying of a loaded firearm, in and of itself, can be construed as reckless under any circumstances absent some act committed by the person carrying the loaded firearm that somehow elevates the carrying of the loaded firearm to be reckless: waving it around, discharging it into the air, you know, pointing it at exit signs, something like that. That might be reckless conduct. The mere carrying of a weapon in a facility, in and of itself, I believe, under Georgia law, cannot be considered reckless conduct because that conduct is lawful in the overwhelming majority of locations in the state of Georgia with the exception of the few listed in this statute. And if this carrying of the weapon violates some provision of this statute, then it violates some provision of this statute. But it doesn't make it reckless. Reckless is causing an unjustifiable risk to the safety of persons or property. And the mere carrying of a firearm, under Georgia law I believe, as I read it, would never be considered, in and of itself, reckless. So I'm going to grant a directed verdict as to Count 3.
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 11-08-2014, 06:02   #20
Glockworks
Ready/Aim/Fire
 
Glockworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 848
Blog Entries: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
In Texas they always put 30.06 signs up at the entrances of Gun Shows so no one can mistake what the law says.

Deaf
I wonder why they like thirty ought six enough to put up such as boring sign?
__________________
- Professional actors are paid liars.
- Professional reporters are paid gossips.
- Maybe Israel should just make their country a no
gun zone, this would make them safe, no?
Glockworks is offline  

 
  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 14:21.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,121
325 Members
796 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31