Did the Apostle Paul Teach A Righteousness Without Law-Keeping?

FCoulter · 07-08-2012, 07:49

Can a Christian be justified apart from obedience to God’s commandments?

http://cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_withoutlaw.pdf

Tilley · 07-08-2012, 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCoulter

Can a Christian be justified apart from obedience to God’s Commandments?

Only by faith in Jesus Christ.

FCoulter · 07-09-2012, 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tilley

Only by faith in Jesus Christ.

So what you are saying is, if a christian has faith he doesnt has to obey Gods laws. Correct?

Brasso · 07-09-2012, 06:58

Faith without works is dead.

Now, since Scripture CANNOT be broken, what do you do with that?

Roering · 07-09-2012, 10:33

Colossians 2:16-19

Therefore do not let anyone (FCoulter, Brasso) judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone (FCoulter, Brasso) who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person (FCoulter, Brasso) also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they (FCoulter, Brasso) are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. They (FCoulter, Brasso) have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

FCoulter · 07-09-2012, 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roering

Colossians 2:16-19

Therefore do not let anyone (FCoulter, Brasso) judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone (FCoulter, Brasso) who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person (FCoulter, Brasso) also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they (FCoulter, Brasso) are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. They (FCoulter, Brasso) have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

. I expect no less from someone whom worships the whore of Rev.

Roering · 07-09-2012, 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCoulter

. I expect no less from someone whom worships the whore of Rev.

Matthew 5:11
Blessed are you when people (FCoulter) insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Schabesbert · 07-09-2012, 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCoulter

Can a Christian be justified apart from obedience to God’s commandments?

http://cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_withoutlaw.pdf

THE WORKS OF THE LAW
James Akin

FCoulter · 07-09-2012, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roering

Matthew 5:11
Blessed are you when people (FCoulter) insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

I didnt mean it as an insult. I was metely stating what I along with millions see, and unfortunately you and other catholics dont see it.

Schabesbert · 07-09-2012, 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCoulter

I didnt mean it as an insult. I was metely stating what I along with millions see, and unfortunately you and other catholics dont see it.

Yes, there are millions that are deceived.

Ro 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.
18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded.

Tit 1:10 For there are many insubordinate men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially the circumcision party;

High-Gear · 07-09-2012, 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCoulter

. I expect no less from someone whom worships the whore of Rev.

Where can I find this whore of which you speak. She sounds cool!

Actually I find it funny when Christians can't agree about how their imaginary friend wants them to worship him and result to name calling. Classy!

One would think an all powerful, all knowing being would have made his word crystal clear, rather than speaking in riddle and alegory causing thousands of interpretations. Those interpretations conveniently serving the interests of those who interpreted them.

FCoulter · 07-09-2012, 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by High-Gear

Where can I find this whore of which you speak. She sounds cool!

Actually I find it funny when Christians can't agree about how their imaginary friend wants them to worship him and result to name calling. Classy!

One would think an all powerful, all knowing being would have made his word crystal clear, rather than speaking in riddle and alegory causing thousands of interpretations. Those interpretations conveniently serving the interests of those who interpreted them.

Its not name calling, its the title Jesus gave to them. If you want to know their location, look up vatican city.

God did make it clear... Satan through man (pope) has decieved and made it unclear to many.

Brasso · 07-09-2012, 15:49

Quote:

Therefore do not let anyone (FCoulter, Brasso) judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

...these are a shadow of things TO come, but the body of Messiah.

Blasphemy, blasphemy....changing the Word of God like that.

Col 2:16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.
Col 2:18 Let no one deprive you of the prize, one who takes delight in false humility and worship of messengers, taking his stand on what he has not seen, puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the Body – nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments – grows with the growth of Elohim.

So you provided false passages, and then accused us of something that doesn't exist. I have no idea what the last part has to do with anything as we have never told anyone to worship angels. The 7th Day Adventists however do believe that "Jesus" is the arch angel Michael. Does that count?

I can't help if I don't believe God lied and flip flopped on His Word. You can believe whatever you like.

Let's see how the Aramaic, the oldest NT texts in existence read:

Col 2:16

Let no one therefore judge you about food and drink, or about the distinctions of festivals and new moons and Shabbats which were shadows of the things then future, but the body of the Mashiyach.

And let's not forget that the Collosians weren't Jews. They were pagans. Unless you believe that pagans were keeping God's Holy Days? You do know that they had their own pagan "holy" days right? So it's the pagans that they aren't supposed to be judged by in keeping God's days. Only the body of Messiah, the assembly, is to judge them in these things. Why would anyone care what a pagan thought anyway?

Schabesbert · 07-09-2012, 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by High-Gear

One would think an all powerful, all knowing being would have made his word crystal clear, rather than speaking in riddle and alegory causing thousands of interpretations. Those interpretations conveniently serving the interests of those who interpreted them.

He never intended for His written word to stand alone, knowing that any writing could be misinterpreted, purposefully or otherwise. Look at our CONUS as a prime example.

That's why our country's founders were wise enough to have an authoritative institution to determine the application of the Constitution.

God, as one would expect, is wiser yet: He instituted His Church for that purpose, and also granted it the aid of His Holy Spirit to ensure that it wouldn't teach error.

Schabesbert · 07-09-2012, 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brasso

...these are a shadow of things TO come, but the body of Messiah.

Yes.
It's one of the tasks of the Body of Christ (i.e., the Church) to determine things like which day should be set apart for worship.

Thanks for the clarification!

G26S239 · 07-09-2012, 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brasso

...these are a shadow of things TO come, but the body of Messiah.

Blasphemy, blasphemy....changing the Word of God like that.

Col 2:16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.
Col 2:18 Let no one deprive you of the prize, one who takes delight in false humility and worship of messengers, taking his stand on what he has not seen, puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the Body – nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments – grows with the growth of Elohim.

So you provided false passages, and then accused us of something that doesn't exist. I have no idea what the last part has to do with anything as we have never told anyone to worship angels. The 7th Day Adventists however do believe that "Jesus" is the arch angel Michael. Does that count?

I can't help if I don't believe God lied and flip flopped on His Word. You can believe whatever you like.

Let's see how the Aramaic, the oldest NT texts in existence read:

Col 2:16

Let no one therefore judge you about food and drink, or about the distinctions of festivals and new moons and Shabbats which were shadows of the things then future, but the body of the Mashiyach.

And let's not forget that the Collosians weren't Jews. They were pagans. Unless you believe that pagans were keeping God's Holy Days? You do know that they had their own pagan "holy" days right? So it's the pagans that they aren't supposed to be judged by in keeping God's days. Only the body of Messiah, the assembly, is to judge them in these things. Why would anyone care what a pagan thought anyway?

Brasso are you Jewish or Christian?

Roering · 07-09-2012, 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCoulter

I didnt mean it as an insult.

Sure you did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCoulter

I was metely stating what I along with millions see,

I love how people who come up with such crazy conspiracy theories always think there is this multitude of people who think the way they do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCoulter

and unfortunately you and other catholics dont see it.

The day I believe that Christ was either kidding or lying about sticking with and guiding the Church he set up I'll let you know. Till then we will just have to disagree on this one.

hotrodcummins12v · 07-09-2012, 17:48

Its amazing that the people who always think that the bible is a book of contradictions, are the people who never read it. You take single texts and pair them with other single texts and don't take in to account the whole book written around it. You hear what others tell you and believe it because you have no true knowledge of the facts. Unbelievers say well what about the "turn the other cheak" vs. the "eye for and eye"? There is a time for price and a time for war. It is so hard for unbelievers to shun the idea of a god but go crazy prepping for a ridiculous zombie apocalypse... silly. I've personally seen demons cast out of people and have felt the presence of God. The existence is real to me because I allow myself to see it rather than ignore it. I'm not saying that there isn't any Hippocrate Christians. Of course there is. Its never easy to walk a straight and narrow path when you lose sight of what truely matters. I don't understand why some people just insist on starting drama because they are simply misinformed, or God didn't answer a prayer for them when quite frankly, they aren't following the guidelines to have their prayers answered. To those that think, God is a god of love and he will forgive me no matter what since I'm a good person. I urge you to read Jeremiah. You will learn the true God. The God that spares numeruos times his loyal servant and brought vengeance and destruction to his enemies. Before you bash Christians for their beliefs, make sure you study the manual on Christianity first before you pick a battle on a subject in which you know nothing about. That is all.

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High-Gear · 07-09-2012, 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotrodcummins12v

. I've personally seen demons cast out of people and have felt the presence of God. The existence is real to me because I allow myself to see it rather than ignore it.

Really? Did you video tape it? Please tell me how you tell the difference between someone possessed by a deamon or who speaks to god from a person suffering from mental illness?

Vic Hays · 07-09-2012, 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCoulter

Can a Christian be justified apart from obedience to God’s commandments?

http://cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_withoutlaw.pdf

If you could be justified by keeping the law God would owe you justification. No one can be justified by keeping the law.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
4:5 But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Brasso · 07-09-2012, 20:58

Well, let's keep our terms defined for what they are.

We are JUSTIFIED by the blood of the lamb. And the just will live by faith. Faith without works is dead. The justified will live by obeying God.

This doesn't mean you are saved by works, but that you do works because you are saved. The Torah AND the Testimony.

And I'm neither Jew nor Christian. I'm Messianic. I believe both halves of the book.

Animal Mother · 07-09-2012, 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

God, as one would expect, is wiser yet: He instituted His Church for that purpose, and also granted it the aid of His Holy Spirit to ensure that it wouldn't teach error.

No teaching of the Roman Catholic Church has ever been an error?

Vic Hays · 07-09-2012, 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animal Mother

No teaching of the Roman Catholic Church has ever been an error?

It must be true because they say so so it must be true.

Just a little circular.

Vic Hays · 07-09-2012, 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brasso

Well, let's keep our terms defined for what they are.

We are JUSTIFIED by the blood of the lamb. And the just will live by faith. Faith without works is dead. The justified will live by obeying God.

This doesn't mean you are saved by works, but that you do works because you are saved. The Torah AND the Testimony.

And I'm neither Jew nor Christian. I'm Messianic. I believe both halves of the book.

It is basic Christianity that all are sinners and therefore unjustifiable. Jesus is worthy and therefore He can justify us by His sacrifice for us.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live to God.
2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Tilley · 07-10-2012, 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCoulter

So what you are saying is, if a christian has faith he doesnt has to obey Gods laws. Correct?

No, I am answering your question. I am justified by faith in Jesus. There is nothing I can ever do to earn salvation.

Let me repeat that...there is nothing I can ever do that will justify me before God.