GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-16-2012, 02:12   #1
Metal Angel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 790
FiveseveN for the military

I was just thinking about it today, seems like there is a thread every couple months about what handgun/caliber the military should use as their sidearm. Seems like everyone argues for 9mm, .40smith, or .45acp... Why not 5.7mm? I know it's a tiny bullet, but it pierces armor- something the military could actually make use of. And it's not like any handgun caliber is much of a man stopper anyway, especially when hollow points are not an option. The lower recoil would be helpful to the smaller soldiers and "non-gun people" soldiers, and capacity is exceptional.

And my main motive- I want FiveseveNs and 5.7x28 to get cheaper
Metal Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 02:33   #2
ParisArms
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 249
It was actually made for the military. The contest was a replacement caliber that could be fired from both a handgun and rifle with a minimum of 20 round capacity. The 5.7 beat HK's proposal but HK protested and the whole thing was scraped.
ParisArms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 05:57   #3
eyelikeglasses
Hooah, Hooah.
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The Sunshine State
Posts: 1,776
I hear some of those high speed kinda guys have used them with great results out to 100 meters or so.
eyelikeglasses is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 08:52   #4
Decguns
Senior Member
 
Decguns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NC
Posts: 2,540
Back in 1989-90, I was in on the NATO testing of the 5.7MM & the P90. The idea being the P90 was superior to the 9MM for gate guards and such. The round could penetrate body armor and deliver a hail of projectiles quite quickly. Recoil was light. The performance of the AP ammo on body armor and helmets was impressive. But no one was interested. The controls on the P90 were not intuitive. Years later, when we played with the 5-7 pistol, we were left scratching our heads as to the weird placement of the controls.

FN was trying to solve problem whith the 5.7 which no longer existed. Armies had left the submachinegun behind in favor of the assault rifle. If a gate guard required more punch than his M9, then he had an M16. Logistics really doomed the 5.7 for military service. The 9MM is the defacto World standard military cartridge. Everyone uses it. Keeping the 9MM proved a smart move when we invaded Iraq, and ammo was in short supply. We were able to purchase 9MM NATO locally from Israel and later the UAE.

As much as arm chair generals beat their chests about a new military cartridge, the fact is the 9MM is here to stay. It's easy to shoot, easy to train, cheap and available everywhere.
__________________
Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet

Last edited by Decguns; 07-16-2012 at 08:52..
Decguns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 21:20   #5
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,168
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
5.7 doesn't really penetrate any real armor. The only stuff it goes through is soft, pistol only body armor.

That said, there's also AP ammo for 9mm and 40, 45 etc that performs similarly to 5.7. So if you're really concerned about body armor, why not stick with a normal caliber, and get the AP when/if you need it.



Lastly, just about everyone who's actually used a 5.7 first hand, seems to not be very impressed with the performance.
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 21:27   #6
crazymoose
Nonentity
 
crazymoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
5.7 doesn't really penetrate any real armor. The only stuff it goes through is soft, pistol only body armor.

That said, there's also AP ammo for 9mm and 40, 45 etc that performs similarly to 5.7. So if you're really concerned about body armor, why not stick with a normal caliber, and get the AP when/if you need it.



Lastly, just about everyone who's actually used a 5.7 first hand, seems to not be very impressed with the performance.
Very true. The Russians have been doing some interesting work on 9x19 pistol and hot AP ammo combos. The Gsh-18 in particular I find mechanically very interesting:

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/rus/gsh-1-e.html
__________________
Do not mistake precedent for justification.

Doubt is an unpleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. Voltaire
crazymoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 21:51   #7
Foxtrotx1
Senior Member
 
Foxtrotx1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 4,025
The 5.7 may pierce soft armor, but that is all it does well.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913
__________________
Tin Foil Free Zone.

Eagle Scout.
Foxtrotx1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 22:42   #8
lunarspeak
Senior Member
 
lunarspeak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: north carolina
Posts: 1,575
ive shot the 5.7...nothing speciel....but i do believe your idea is flawed if by some chance in heck the 5.7 round and firearms were adopted by our armed forces id bet the prices would skyrocket
lunarspeak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 23:24   #9
Metal Angel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunarspeak View Post
ive shot the 5.7...nothing speciel....but i do believe your idea is flawed if by some chance in heck the 5.7 round and firearms were adopted by our armed forces id bet the prices would skyrocket
I disagree. The Berretta 92 is probably the best value combat handgun you can get. What other quality metal frame gun will run you less than 600 bones? The answer to that question is the CZ-75. What do these two firearms have in common besides high value quality? They are both widely used military firearms. How about the cartridge they are chambered in? Is it pretty expensive because the military hogs it all? Nope. It also happens to be the highest value cartridge you can get because of copious production due to military use.

Like you, I doubt the Five seveN will ever have the words "standard issue" in front of it, but if it did, it would come way down in price, and so would it's respective chambering.
Metal Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 08:35   #10
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,666
Quote:
Years later, when we played with the 5-7 pistol, we were left scratching our heads as to the weird placement of the controls.
Amen or +11 or whatever the Internet World does for agreement these days.

I poo-poohed the idea to start with, but first saw one demonstrated and was prepared to be open minded.
Then I found the safety and lost all interest.
__________________
I have a few facts and a lot of opinions.

Last edited by Jim Watson; 07-17-2012 at 08:38..
Jim Watson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 08:44   #11
Sturmgewehre
Senior Member
 
Sturmgewehre's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 686
I don't believe the 5.7 is a better solution as compared to the 9mm, .40 or .45 ACP. If our military used the P90, perhaps it would make a little more sense. From a Special Operations standpoint, I can see some interest in the caliber... but for general issue to troops, the 9mm is still the way to go, IMHO. All of our allies use it. Heck, even our enemies use it. It's already supported by countless manufacturers both in terms of ammo production and in weapons production.

The 5.7 and the 4.6x30 have a small foothold in the military/LEO communities with several countries using the P90 and fewer using the MP7... but for some reason it hasn't really boomed like I thought it might back in the early 2000's when NATO was looking for a PDW system. I don't know if it's the caliber as much as the concept of a PDW not gaining much momentum.
__________________
Military Arms Channel: The best firearms and gear reviews on the nations best network, YouTube.
Sturmgewehre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 09:10   #12
Shipwreck-The-Sequel
Beretta 92 Nut!
 
Shipwreck-The-Sequel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hockey City, Texas
Posts: 2,385
The P90 was really a middleground between a handgun and battle rifle. I'd rather have a P90 (if I was in the military) over a handgun for sure.
__________________
-
Visit: Texas Gun Forum!!!!
Shipwreck-The-Sequel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 09:36   #13
fnfalman
Chicks Dig It
 
fnfalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: California & New Mexico, US
Posts: 54,774


If I were to carry a carbine, then it'd be in 5.56mm. Same bulk, bigger and more powerful caliber. I can't believe I just said that about a 5.56mm round - powerful caliber.
__________________
Can you dig it?
fnfalman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 14:52   #14
TumblingFTW
Registered User
 
TumblingFTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Angel View Post
I was just thinking about it today, seems like there is a thread every couple months about what handgun/caliber the military should use as their sidearm. Seems like everyone argues for 9mm, .40smith, or .45acp... Why not 5.7mm? I know it's a tiny bullet, but it pierces armor- something the military could actually make use of. And it's not like any handgun caliber is much of a man stopper anyway, especially when hollow points are not an option. The lower recoil would be helpful to the smaller soldiers and "non-gun people" soldiers, and capacity is exceptional.

And my main motive- I want FiveseveNs and 5.7x28 to get cheaper
You can thank H&K and their self interests for why the 5.7x28mm platform wasn't adopted by NATO. Everybody else wanted it. And for good reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParisArms View Post
It was actually made for the military. The contest was a replacement caliber that could be fired from both a handgun and rifle with a minimum of 20 round capacity. The 5.7 beat HK's proposal but HK protested and the whole thing was scraped.
Completely correct!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decguns View Post
Back in 1989-90, I was in on the NATO testing of the 5.7MM & the P90. The idea being the P90 was superior to the 9MM for gate guards and such. The round could penetrate body armor and deliver a hail of projectiles quite quickly. Recoil was light. The performance of the AP ammo on body armor and helmets was impressive. But no one was interested. The controls on the P90 were not intuitive. Years later, when we played with the 5-7 pistol, we were left scratching our heads as to the weird placement of the controls.

FN was trying to solve problem whith the 5.7 which no longer existed. Armies had left the submachinegun behind in favor of the assault rifle. If a gate guard required more punch than his M9, then he had an M16. Logistics really doomed the 5.7 for military service. The 9MM is the defacto World standard military cartridge. Everyone uses it. Keeping the 9MM proved a smart move when we invaded Iraq, and ammo was in short supply. We were able to purchase 9MM NATO locally from Israel and later the UAE.

As much as arm chair generals beat their chests about a new military cartridge, the fact is the 9MM is here to stay. It's easy to shoot, easy to train, cheap and available everywhere.
Actually, H&K doomed the 5.7 for military service. NATO is concerned arm chair generals?

There is actually a very real use for a compact, high capacity, high rate of fire, armor penetrating, sub-machine gun, in close quarters combat. Lots of special forces around the world are using either the 5.7 or 4.6 and are very happy with it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
5.7 doesn't really penetrate any real armor. The only stuff it goes through is soft, pistol only body armor.

That said, there's also AP ammo for 9mm and 40, 45 etc that performs similarly to 5.7. So if you're really concerned about body armor, why not stick with a normal caliber, and get the AP when/if you need it.

Lastly, just about everyone who's actually used a 5.7 first hand, seems to not be very impressed with the performance.
5.7 penetrates the highest levels of soft armor (CRISAT or Level IIIa) out to 200m. It will also penetrate some hard armor with aftermarket ammunition.

Realistically speaking, there is no armor piercing armor ammo for 9, .40, and .45. And the ammo that has been tested has been shown to cause inferior tissue damage to the 5.7

And in regards to "everyone who's actually used a 5.7 first hand seems to not be very impressed", please provide documentation of those reports. Worldwide, the 5.7 platform continues to surge and recently in the U.S. sales of 5.7 have exploded.

This was taken directly from FNH's website:

Q: I’m having a hard time finding 5.7x28mm ammunition. Is there a shortage?

A: The SS195LF and the SS197SR are two types of 5.7x28mm ammunition distributed commercially in the U.S. They are both fully compatible with the FN Five-seveN® pistol and the FN PS90 carbine. During the past few months, the U.S. market has experienced intermittent shortages of both rounds due to an unexpected and overwhelming increase in sales of the Five-seveN and the PS90, as well as a nationwide shortage of ammunition in general. Production levels were recently increased and a new supply is expected to be available shortly. Please visit www.fnhusa.com or follow us on Facebook to receive future updates. In the meantime, we apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused and appreciate your patience while we work to resolve this issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxtrotx1 View Post
The 5.7 may pierce soft armor, but that is all it does well.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913
Not that old tired link again.... *sigh*


His full title is Dr. Gary K. Roberts, DDS (note that he is a dentist, not a trauma surgeon). I am not aware of any credible independent source online that clearly acknowledges DocGKR as an authority on the subject of wound ballistics, let alone gunshot wounds in actual human bodies.

He spends a lot of time posting on the internet, and he definitely has a cult-like following on a few internet forums. He has certainly done extensive testing with bullets in ballistic gelatin, and some LE/military organizations have consulted him over the years, but that hardly puts him head-and-shoulders above the other individuals that are typically mentioned in these sorts of discussions. For example, a 28-year veteran of Houston, PD SWAT that I will mention later, who has actually shot people with guns (including the P90), and served three terms as president of the TTPOA (Texas Tactical Police Officers Association).

Furthermore, the individual in question (DocGKR) has not even tested any 5.7x28mm load introduced in the last 15-20 years. What he thinks about an ammo type not offered to civilians (SS190) or an ammo type discontinued 20 years ago (SS90) is utterly irrelevant to a discussion on current 5.7x28mm loads.

Not to mention, two days after the Fort Hood shooting occurred, this same individual was already touting the early media reports that said the killer was stopped by a female police officer who had been shot with 5.7x28mm rounds.

Of course, we now know that the early news reports were inaccurate and that is not what actually happened; despite her bravery, the female police officer in question was incapacitated (and nearly died) from a hit to the leg, and the killer was actually stopped by a second (male) police officer while she was lying on the ground severely wounded.

All of this despite the fact that DocGKR had never even tested either of the ammunition types used by the Fort Hood shooter (SS192, SS197SR); not to mention the misinformation campaign (with regards to this caliber) that he has been pushing for years on forums all over the internet.

More recently, he tried to discount one of EA's 5.7x28mm loads (which he has never even tested) by simply scrutinizing a blurry photo of it that he found on the internet. The man is clearly not impartial; he made up his mind on this caliber about 15 years ago when he shot gelatin with the SS90 prototype cartridge.

Anyway, you likely haven't read any of those (ancient) papers cited at the end of his article. Half of them discuss a 23-grain plastic-core prototype cartridge (SS90) that was discontinued 20 years ago. The two or three other papers on that list (discussing SS190) are irrelevant from the get-go, in light of the massive amount of verifiable information available on the caliber's performance in actual human bodies (as opposed to a simulant).

Papers aside, nothing else in that article was substantiated in any way. Even the picture in the post is extremely outdated (the projectile pictured is the SS90 prototype). Also, the statement that the 5.7x28mm performs "at best" like a .22 LR or .22 WMR is provably wrong and idiotic and further supports the popular opinion amongst 5.7x28mm owners, that Dr. Roberts is either heavily biased, or wholly ignorant on the subject, or a mixture of both.


As far as Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb and their comments on the efficacy of the 5.7x28mm platform; those two individuals have zero experience with the 5.7x28mm (either in testing or in shootings), so their opinions have been formed by what they have read and heard about the caliber; nothing more, nothing less.

Let's look at some actual verifiable accounts from people that have been in shootings with the P90 and see what they have to say:

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/arti ... spx?ID=309

I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon.

<snip>

The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets.

<snip>

If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.

-- Sandy Wall of HPD (see below)



http://warriorsos.blogspot.com/2010/10/ ... -wall.html

Sandy Wall retired from Houston Police Department after 28-years. He served for 22 years on SWAT, and was a three-term president with the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association (TTPOA). He is currently the Training Director for Safariland Training Group. Sandy is the founder of the Less Lethal Solutions, Inc. and the inventor of "The Wall Banger."



http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tac ... firepower/

S.W.A.T. team commander Capt. Mohamed Lostan of the Passaic County Sheriff’s Dept. in NJ is a particularly enthusiastic supporter of the handgun and cartridge. “While our department issues .40-cal. pistols, our S.W.A.T. team is allowed to carry any handgun they want to use as long as they purchase it themselves and qualify with it, In fact, I was the first one on the team to carry the Five-seveN, although now several others do as well,” he continued. Lostan definitely knows his way around firearms. In addition to his 23 years with the sheriff’s department and current position he also served in the U.S. Army in the 3rd Division Recon Unit and the 82nd Airborne Division.

“I was so impressed by the 5.7×28mm cartridge used in the P90 that I asked permission for S.W.A.T. team members to be able to carry Five-seveN pistols if we purchased them on our own.”

Two more examples:

http://web.archive.org/web/200209030...c529800ad.html (Summary: Duluth, GA police with FN Five-seveN pistols shot and killed a man holed up in his garage shooting at them with a .357 Magnum revolver)

http://www.dui1.com/DuiCaseLawDetail829.htm (Summary: Sioux Falls, SD police officer with a P90 shot a man in the arm through a bedroom door and he dropped his weapon and surrendered)

The best known case involving U.S. police would still be the aforementioned shooting in Houston, TX, which is supported by the article from Sandy Wall, who noted that the SS190 bullet performed well (as confirmed by autopsy) and compared its performance to a 9x19mm 115-grain JHP +P+.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
Amen or +11 or whatever the Internet World does for agreement these days.

I poo-poohed the idea to start with, but first saw one demonstrated and was prepared to be open minded.
Then I found the safety and lost all interest.
When drawn from the holster, the trigger finger (which should be pointing straight out) aligns perfectly with the safety. Manipulating the safety on the Five-seveN requires no adjustment of the grip, which can't be said for the majority of handguns out there (save for the Glocks of course).

For someone used to activating another safety system (1911) it will take a bit of practice to get used to, but when muscle memory is retrained, you will find your ability to draw, take the weapon off safe, and acquire your target is just as fast or faster than any other pistol platform on the market.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipwreck-The-Sequel View Post
The P90 was really a middleground between a handgun and battle rifle. I'd rather have a P90 (if I was in the military) over a handgun for sure.
This guy gets it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
If I were to carry a carbine, then it'd be in 5.56mm. Same bulk, bigger and more powerful caliber. I can't believe I just said that about a 5.56mm round - powerful caliber.
On the battlefield, you need a full size rifle. I would prefer a .308 over a 5.56. In close quarters combat, you need something as compact as possible, as accurate as possible, as quiet as possible, and as little muzzle flash as possible. Armor piercing, high capacity, and high rate of fire are all bonuses. The 5.7 platform fits these criteria perfectly.

Those that would modify the 5.56 platform to a short barrel version find they are left with blinding muzzle flash, ear-splitting noise, aim affecting recoil, and muzzle energy figures very close to a PS90. That's right, with EA ammunition loaded in a PS90, there is only a few hundred ft-lbs of energy separating the PS90 from a short-barreled 5.56.. MINUS the noise and muzzle flash, and recoil.
__________________
Two military and one trauma surgeon, having operated on more than one thousand gunshot wounds, claim that a torso hit using EA's S4 civilian ammo fired from the FiveseveN pistol, is unsurviveable unless it took place just outside the operating room.
TumblingFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 15:04   #15
fnfalman
Chicks Dig It
 
fnfalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: California & New Mexico, US
Posts: 54,774


Quote:
Originally Posted by TumblingFTW View Post
On the battlefield, you need a full size rifle. I would prefer a .308 over a 5.56. In close quarters combat, you need something as compact as possible, as accurate as possible, as quiet as possible, and as little muzzle flash as possible. Armor piercing, high capacity, and high rate of fire are all bonuses. The 5.7 platform fits these criteria perfectly.

Those that would modify the 5.56 platform to a short barrel version find they are left with blinding muzzle flash, ear-splitting noise, aim affecting recoil, and muzzle energy figures very close to a PS90. That's right, with EA ammunition loaded in a PS90, there is only a few hundred ft-lbs of energy separating the PS90 from a short-barreled 5.56.. MINUS the noise and muzzle flash, and recoil.
For close quarter combat, I prefer a hand grenade through the window or door. Or shoot through the walls with my FAL.

The P90 sure looks cool with the Stargate troopers though.
__________________
Can you dig it?
fnfalman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 15:23   #16
Foxtrotx1
Senior Member
 
Foxtrotx1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 4,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by TumblingFTW View Post
You can thank H&K and their self interests for why the 5.7x28mm platform wasn't adopted by NATO. Everybody else wanted it. And for good reason.



Completely correct!



Actually, H&K doomed the 5.7 for military service. NATO is concerned arm chair generals?

There is actually a very real use for a compact, high capacity, high rate of fire, armor penetrating, sub-machine gun, in close quarters combat. Lots of special forces around the world are using either the 5.7 or 4.6 and are very happy with it.




5.7 penetrates the highest levels of soft armor (CRISAT or Level IIIa) out to 200m. It will also penetrate some hard armor with aftermarket ammunition.

Realistically speaking, there is no armor piercing armor ammo for 9, .40, and .45. And the ammo that has been tested has been shown to cause inferior tissue damage to the 5.7

And in regards to "everyone who's actually used a 5.7 first hand seems to not be very impressed", please provide documentation of those reports. Worldwide, the 5.7 platform continues to surge and recently in the U.S. sales of 5.7 have exploded.

This was taken directly from FNH's website:

Q: I’m having a hard time finding 5.7x28mm ammunition. Is there a shortage?

A: The SS195LF and the SS197SR are two types of 5.7x28mm ammunition distributed commercially in the U.S. They are both fully compatible with the FN Five-seveN® pistol and the FN PS90 carbine. During the past few months, the U.S. market has experienced intermittent shortages of both rounds due to an unexpected and overwhelming increase in sales of the Five-seveN and the PS90, as well as a nationwide shortage of ammunition in general. Production levels were recently increased and a new supply is expected to be available shortly. Please visit www.fnhusa.com or follow us on Facebook to receive future updates. In the meantime, we apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused and appreciate your patience while we work to resolve this issue



Not that old tired link again.... *sigh*


His full title is Dr. Gary K. Roberts, DDS (note that he is a dentist, not a trauma surgeon). I am not aware of any credible independent source online that clearly acknowledges DocGKR as an authority on the subject of wound ballistics, let alone gunshot wounds in actual human bodies.

He spends a lot of time posting on the internet, and he definitely has a cult-like following on a few internet forums. He has certainly done extensive testing with bullets in ballistic gelatin, and some LE/military organizations have consulted him over the years, but that hardly puts him head-and-shoulders above the other individuals that are typically mentioned in these sorts of discussions. For example, a 28-year veteran of Houston, PD SWAT that I will mention later, who has actually shot people with guns (including the P90), and served three terms as president of the TTPOA (Texas Tactical Police Officers Association).

Furthermore, the individual in question (DocGKR) has not even tested any 5.7x28mm load introduced in the last 15-20 years. What he thinks about an ammo type not offered to civilians (SS190) or an ammo type discontinued 20 years ago (SS90) is utterly irrelevant to a discussion on current 5.7x28mm loads.

Not to mention, two days after the Fort Hood shooting occurred, this same individual was already touting the early media reports that said the killer was stopped by a female police officer who had been shot with 5.7x28mm rounds.

Of course, we now know that the early news reports were inaccurate and that is not what actually happened; despite her bravery, the female police officer in question was incapacitated (and nearly died) from a hit to the leg, and the killer was actually stopped by a second (male) police officer while she was lying on the ground severely wounded.

All of this despite the fact that DocGKR had never even tested either of the ammunition types used by the Fort Hood shooter (SS192, SS197SR); not to mention the misinformation campaign (with regards to this caliber) that he has been pushing for years on forums all over the internet.

More recently, he tried to discount one of EA's 5.7x28mm loads (which he has never even tested) by simply scrutinizing a blurry photo of it that he found on the internet. The man is clearly not impartial; he made up his mind on this caliber about 15 years ago when he shot gelatin with the SS90 prototype cartridge.

Anyway, you likely haven't read any of those (ancient) papers cited at the end of his article. Half of them discuss a 23-grain plastic-core prototype cartridge (SS90) that was discontinued 20 years ago. The two or three other papers on that list (discussing SS190) are irrelevant from the get-go, in light of the massive amount of verifiable information available on the caliber's performance in actual human bodies (as opposed to a simulant).

Papers aside, nothing else in that article was substantiated in any way. Even the picture in the post is extremely outdated (the projectile pictured is the SS90 prototype). Also, the statement that the 5.7x28mm performs "at best" like a .22 LR or .22 WMR is provably wrong and idiotic and further supports the popular opinion amongst 5.7x28mm owners, that Dr. Roberts is either heavily biased, or wholly ignorant on the subject, or a mixture of both.


As far as Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb and their comments on the efficacy of the 5.7x28mm platform; those two individuals have zero experience with the 5.7x28mm (either in testing or in shootings), so their opinions have been formed by what they have read and heard about the caliber; nothing more, nothing less.

Let's look at some actual verifiable accounts from people that have been in shootings with the P90 and see what they have to say:

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/arti ... spx?ID=309

I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon.

<snip>

The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets.

<snip>

If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.

-- Sandy Wall of HPD (see below)



http://warriorsos.blogspot.com/2010/10/ ... -wall.html

Sandy Wall retired from Houston Police Department after 28-years. He served for 22 years on SWAT, and was a three-term president with the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association (TTPOA). He is currently the Training Director for Safariland Training Group. Sandy is the founder of the Less Lethal Solutions, Inc. and the inventor of "The Wall Banger."



http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tac ... firepower/

S.W.A.T. team commander Capt. Mohamed Lostan of the Passaic County Sheriff’s Dept. in NJ is a particularly enthusiastic supporter of the handgun and cartridge. “While our department issues .40-cal. pistols, our S.W.A.T. team is allowed to carry any handgun they want to use as long as they purchase it themselves and qualify with it, In fact, I was the first one on the team to carry the Five-seveN, although now several others do as well,” he continued. Lostan definitely knows his way around firearms. In addition to his 23 years with the sheriff’s department and current position he also served in the U.S. Army in the 3rd Division Recon Unit and the 82nd Airborne Division.

“I was so impressed by the 5.7×28mm cartridge used in the P90 that I asked permission for S.W.A.T. team members to be able to carry Five-seveN pistols if we purchased them on our own.”

Two more examples:

http://web.archive.org/web/200209030...c529800ad.html (Summary: Duluth, GA police with FN Five-seveN pistols shot and killed a man holed up in his garage shooting at them with a .357 Magnum revolver)

http://www.dui1.com/DuiCaseLawDetail829.htm (Summary: Sioux Falls, SD police officer with a P90 shot a man in the arm through a bedroom door and he dropped his weapon and surrendered)

The best known case involving U.S. police would still be the aforementioned shooting in Houston, TX, which is supported by the article from Sandy Wall, who noted that the SS190 bullet performed well (as confirmed by autopsy) and compared its performance to a 9x19mm 115-grain JHP +P+.




When drawn from the holster, the trigger finger (which should be pointing straight out) aligns perfectly with the safety. Manipulating the safety on the Five-seveN requires no adjustment of the grip, which can't be said for the majority of handguns out there (save for the Glocks of course).

For someone used to activating another safety system (1911) it will take a bit of practice to get used to, but when muscle memory is retrained, you will find your ability to draw, take the weapon off safe, and acquire your target is just as fast or faster than any other pistol platform on the market.




This guy gets it.



On the battlefield, you need a full size rifle. I would prefer a .308 over a 5.56. In close quarters combat, you need something as compact as possible, as accurate as possible, as quiet as possible, and as little muzzle flash as possible. Armor piercing, high capacity, and high rate of fire are all bonuses. The 5.7 platform fits these criteria perfectly.

Those that would modify the 5.56 platform to a short barrel version find they are left with blinding muzzle flash, ear-splitting noise, aim affecting recoil, and muzzle energy figures very close to a PS90. That's right, with EA ammunition loaded in a PS90, there is only a few hundred ft-lbs of energy separating the PS90 from a short-barreled 5.56.. MINUS the noise and muzzle flash, and recoil.
Good lord that's a lot of kool-aid!

EA, you mean this company?

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1342282
__________________
Tin Foil Free Zone.

Eagle Scout.
Foxtrotx1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 15:33   #17
Shipwreck-The-Sequel
Beretta 92 Nut!
 
Shipwreck-The-Sequel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hockey City, Texas
Posts: 2,385
Great post, Tumbling!
__________________
-
Visit: Texas Gun Forum!!!!
Shipwreck-The-Sequel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 15:54   #18
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,666
Quote:
When drawn from the holster, the trigger finger (which should be pointing straight out) aligns perfectly with the safety. Manipulating the safety on the Five-seveN requires no adjustment of the grip, which can't be said for the majority of handguns out there (save for the Glocks of course).

For someone used to activating another safety system (1911) it will take a bit of practice to get used to, but when muscle memory is retrained, you will find your ability to draw, take the weapon off safe, and acquire your target is just as fast or faster than any other pistol platform on the market.
I get the idea. In fact I went through it with the P7 squeezecocker, probably the handiest of any gun outside the Glock and other Convulsive Response designs. But it was all P7 or all Other Gun. I could not put in any time with a DA or SAO and maintain any proficiency with the P7. I was not willing to dedicate my life to the P7 so I sold it and am content with my 1911, PM&P, Sig-Sauer, and revolver.

There is a red hot Five-seveN afficianado hereabouts. He even whined until we let him shoot it in IDPA. But he has no facility with the draw and unsafe, he is slow into action with it. Are there better shooters with one? No doubt, but I am not encouraged by what I see here.
__________________
I have a few facts and a lot of opinions.
Jim Watson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 16:25   #19
Metal Angel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 790
Wow, thanks for such an extensive informative post Tumbling!

I just read a little on the Fort Hood report. The lady officer who tried to stop the shooter had her femur SHATTERED by the 5.7mm. To those who compare the 5.7 to a .22mag... I highly doubt a .22mag could shatter such a ridgid bone. I wonder if a 9mm could even do that.

Fnfalman-
A 5.56 and 5.7 are almost identical in size, and by the time you shorten an AR15 (or whatever) to the length of a P90, you lose all the velocity advantage of the 5.56. In fact, going off of BBTIs website, the short barrel 5.56 comes down to about 22-2300 fps, which is exactly what the 5.7 is. And, now you have a huge deafening fireball coming out the end of a bucking rifle.

No experience either way here, I don't fight for a living, but it sure seems like the P90 would be a better option in that scenario.
Metal Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 16:30   #20
Metal Angel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
I get the idea. In fact I went through it with the P7 squeezecocker, probably the handiest of any gun outside the Glock and other Convulsive Response designs. But it was all P7 or all Other Gun. I could not put in any time with a DA or SAO and maintain any proficiency with the P7. I was not willing to dedicate my life to the P7 so I sold it and am content with my 1911, PM&P, Sig-Sauer, and revolver.

There is a red hot Five-seveN afficianado hereabouts. He even whined until we let him shoot it in IDPA. But he has no facility with the draw and unsafe, he is slow into action with it. Are there better shooters with one? No doubt, but I am not encouraged by what I see here.
Honestly I don't care one way or another about the firearm itself... It's cool and I'd like to have one but I would be just as happy to have a Glock chambered in 5.7x28.
Metal Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 17:00   #21
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,168
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Angel View Post
Wow, thanks for such an extensive informative post Tumbling!

I just read a little on the Fort Hood report. The lady officer who tried to stop the shooter had her femur SHATTERED by the 5.7mm. To those who compare the 5.7 to a .22mag... I highly doubt a .22mag could shatter such a ridgid bone. I wonder if a 9mm could even do that.
What do you think a 9mm to the femur is going to do bounce off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Angel View Post
Fnfalman-
A 5.56 and 5.7 are almost identical in size, and by the time you shorten an AR15 (or whatever) to the length of a P90, you lose all the velocity advantage of the 5.56. In fact, going off of BBTIs website, the short barrel 5.56 comes down to about 22-2300 fps, which is exactly what the 5.7 is. And, now you have a huge deafening fireball coming out the end of a bucking rifle.

No experience either way here, I don't fight for a living, but it sure seems like the P90 would be a better option in that scenario.
How short are you going on the barrel and what loads to get those results?

Most of the PSD M-4's I saw when working VIP's by the SS and .mil were in the area of 10.5-12.5 and throwing 55 grain at close to 3K fps.

Even the 75 grain out of a 12.5 is still going 2400-2450 fps.


There is quite a substantial difference between 5.7 and 5.56 in terms of terminal effectiveness. And thats part of the reason that the P90 and 5.7 has never really gone anywhere.
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 17:59   #22
Metal Angel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
What do you think a 9mm to the femur is going to do bounce off?
Nope. But the muscles in your thigh are dense and thick, so the bullet will expend a lot of energy just getting to the femur. Once it's there, what will it do? Pop a 9mm hole through? Deflect? Shatter it? I don't know. That's why I said "I wonder". I do know that pistol calibers don't do well against bone sim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
How short are you going on the barrel and what loads to get those results?

Most of the PSD M-4's I saw when working VIP's by the SS and .mil were in the area of 10.5-12.5 and throwing 55 grain at close to 3K fps.

Even the 75 grain out of a 12.5 is still going 2400-2450 fps.


There is quite a substantial difference between 5.7 and 5.56 in terms of terminal effectiveness. And thats part of the reason that the P90 and 5.7 has never really gone anywhere.
Allowing a 7.5" AR15 into the same compact PDW class as a P90 is being very generous. The P90 only has a 9" barrel and it's a bullpup. So no, I am not considering your 12.5" M4 the same category as a P90. I'm looking at barrel lengths 7-8", 45-55gr. I'm well aware that 5.56 is a substantial round out of a long barrel.

Last edited by Metal Angel; 07-17-2012 at 18:01..
Metal Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 18:21   #23
fnfalman
Chicks Dig It
 
fnfalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: California & New Mexico, US
Posts: 54,774


Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Angel View Post
Allowing a 7.5" AR15 into the same compact PDW class as a P90 is being very generous. The P90 only has a 9" barrel and it's a bullpup. So no, I am not considering your 12.5" M4 the same category as a P90. I'm looking at barrel lengths 7-8", 45-55gr. I'm well aware that 5.56 is a substantial round out of a long barrel.
What's the length of a collapsed stock short barreled M16 compared to the P90?

Even if the P90 is shorter, so what? I'm not into the bodyguard business, concealment isn't an issue with me. People have been using M4s for CQB nearly ten years or more now. They have no problem with maneuvering inside houses and hallways.
__________________
Can you dig it?
fnfalman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 18:27   #24
vafish
Senior Member
 
vafish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Commonwealth of Virginia
Posts: 23,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by TumblingFTW View Post
.....

The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets.

<snip>

....

You spent all that time typing that to tell us there is one verifiable shooting and in that one case the 5.7 performed about like a 9mm 115 +P+?



And they say Glock owners drink Kool Aide. What the heck do 5.7 owners drink?

The 5.7 will never see widespread use in the American military.

Even non-combat soldiers get an M4 these days eliminating the need for a "PDW" like the P90.

Handguns are secondary weapons and the military is not going to dump the 9mm.
__________________
"If your plan is for one year, plant rice.
If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years,
educate children." -- Confucius

Last edited by vafish; 07-17-2012 at 18:33..
vafish is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 18:33   #25
Metal Angel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by vafish View Post
You spent all that time typing that to tell us there is one verifiable shooting and in that one case the 5.7 performed about like a 9mm 115 +P+?



And they say Glock owners drink Kool Aide. What the heck do 5.7 owners drink?
The point is it can penetrate armor and then do what a 9mm +p+ hp can do. 9mm can only do one or the other. No 9mm load will do both.
Metal Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:47.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 692
206 Members
486 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42