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Old 07-20-2012, 22:19   #1
ancient_serpent
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In light of the CO shootings:

While the recent murders in Colorado are certainly a tragedy, it is important that we maintain a realistic, informed attitude about the statistics involved.
Please note the below listed statistics as you see fit:

"the avoidable amont of human wastage and associated social costs and associated social cost produced in highway crashes is stupendously large, even in the context of all other natinoal publuc health problems and needs - an average of 13,000 crash casualties a day"-
Kelley, A. (1975, February). ARE SOME PUBLIC HEALTH PROBLEMS MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS?. American Journal of Public Health. p. 182.

"Automobile crashes are the leading cause of death for those aged 3 to 33, with 43,005 (118 per day) Americans killed in 2002 alone"-
Clayton, M., Helms, B., & Simpson, C. (2006). ACTIVE PROMPTING TO DECREASE CELL PHONE USE AND INCREASE SEAT BELT USE WHILE DRIVING. Journal Of Applied Behavior Analysis, 39(3), 341-349. doi:10.1901/jaba.2006.153-04

"In-hospital medical errors, on average,cost 195,000 lives and $6 billion a year, according to recent research" - Report: Medical Mistakes Linked to 195,000 Deaths a Year. (2004). Health Management Technology, 25(9), 10.

-in 1990: 40,000 deaths due to tobacco, 300,000 deaths due to diet, activity patterns. Since that time the numbers have gotten worse.
-in 2000, 176,000 due to racial segregation causes, 162,000 to low social support and 133,000 deaths due to individual level poverty.

-Galea, S., Tracy, M., Hoggatt, K. J., DiMaggio, C., & Karpati, A. (2011). Estimated Deaths Attributable to Social Factors in the United States. American Journal Of Public Health, 101(8), 1456-1465. doi:10.2105/AJPH.2010.300086

None of this in intended to slight or make light of the tragedy in Colorado. My single purpose in posting these numbers is to provide perspective on the issue.
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Old 07-21-2012, 06:05   #2
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I knew this was coming.
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Old 07-21-2012, 07:29   #3
ancient_serpent
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Thank you for taking the time to express such a complex idea.
Contrary to what you may think, I did not simply copy statistics from an internet board, nor did I rely on someone elses information to find those numbers. Arming others with knowledge is important. I fail to see how encouraging rational thinking on such an important debate is beating an dead horse.
If you were a leader during your time in the military I would think you capable of appreciating that.
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:36   #4
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Hard not to see the news since I live in CO. Lots of non-information interviews at this point so I went to a few of the national cable shows.

After the usual shock and sorrow statements they started getting down to the gun control stuff. Not much I hadn't heard before but the one most puzzling to me (and it has puzzled me for years) is the limiting of magazine size.

I think it shows lack of knowledge on one hand. How many of us, after all, practice magazine changes. If for nothing else but competition. Not hard to get off 30 rounds with two magazine changes.

What bothers me most about the limited capacity argument though, is the fact that these folks are apparently willing to sacrifice the first few people that the limited number of rounds will hit.

I keep hoping the press will go after the real problem here, which in my opinion is a failure of the mental health industry and the families to find fault with themselves in these sad cases. How often do we have to hear that the family saw it coming or read about the reports in some cases that had been filed about a person's instability?

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Old 07-22-2012, 07:13   #5
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Had any CCW people in there been allowed to carry in there, this might have had a diff outcome. Besides, why no one, as far as we know, tried to tackle the SOB is hard to understand.
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:07   #6
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There was a press conference yesterday but not much info, mostly encouragement and condolences.

What's been on the local news are interviews, lots of them with survivors from the adjoining theaters too. Apparently a couple of ex or current military there understood what to do and tried to get people to stay down and out of the way of shotgun pellets coming thru the wall.

I haven't seen combat since the '60s but I like to think I'd have reacted properly. People that have never been in that type of situation just don't understand how to react, they get that deer in the headlight thing going on. I think the shooter counted on that.

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Old 07-22-2012, 10:30   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient_serpent View Post
Thank you for taking the time to express such a complex idea.
Contrary to what you may think, I did not simply copy statistics from an internet board, nor did I rely on someone elses information to find those numbers. Arming others with knowledge is important. I fail to see how encouraging rational thinking on such an important debate is beating an dead horse.
If you were a leader during your time in the military I would think you capable of appreciating that.
I for one appreciate the time you took. Event if it had been copied and pasted, good information is good information and any information that can be used to show how irrational the gun haters are.... IS.... GOOD..... INFORMATION!

People can and should post and re-post verifiable, helpful statistics every time the haters are on the attack.
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:45   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.1 View Post

I keep hoping the press will go after the real problem here, which in my opinion is a failure of the mental health industry and the families to find fault with themselves in these sad cases. How often do we have to hear that the family saw it coming or read about the reports in some cases that had been filed about a person's instability?

Dave
If the mental health system was working most of the people screaming for gun control would be in rubber rooms.

As for families failing. Over the many years of my life I have come to the conclusion that its not how a child/person is raised. Some really bad apples come from some very good parents/families and some really, really GOOD! people have come from bad or totally lacking parenting/families. People are individuals. The concept of right and wrong has to come for internal sources. Granted being around GOOD people helps.
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:53   #9
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Originally Posted by doglett386 View Post
Had any CCW people in there been allowed to carry in there, this might have had a diff outcome. Besides, why no one, as far as we know, tried to tackle the SOB is hard to understand.
Because we have become a nation of cowards. Take a look at most of the people being interviewed on the news. Next time you go to a theater, if you go, (I go about once every ten years) take a good look at the people around you. I don't see many that "I believe" would come to my wife's rescue if I wasn't there. And I have serious doubts about the ones that look like they MIGHT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.1 View Post

I haven't seen combat since the '60s but I like to think I'd have reacted properly. People that have never been in that type of situation just don't understand how to react, they get that deer in the headlight thing going on.

Dave
^
That alos!!!
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Last edited by Jerry; 07-22-2012 at 10:57..
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:54   #10
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I understand what you mean, Jerry. What I meant was once the family member is pretty much an adult.

We've heard with some of the past shootings that family members, both immediate and extended, recognise problems that go beyond someone just being introverted, for example. And, as we saw in Virginia, the system recognised the problems with the shooter but without pursuing it with the family and getting cooperation, they couldn't get that person in a position where they could be kept from harming others.

Speaking of rubber rooms, I see where Mayor Bloomberg is calling for more gun control!

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Old 07-22-2012, 11:06   #11
Jerry
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Originally Posted by Dave.1 View Post
I understand what you mean, Jerry. What I meant was once the family member is pretty much an adult.

We've heard with some of the past shootings that family members, both immediate and extended, recognise problems that go beyond someone just being introverted, for example. And, as we saw in Virginia, the system recognised the problems with the shooter but without pursuing it with the family and getting cooperation, they couldn't get that person in a position where they could be kept from harming others.

Speaking of rubber rooms, I see where Mayor Bloomberg is calling for more gun control!

Dave
I understand and agree completely. Even when family member see the signs its hard to believe someone you love would do such things. As for others, and family too, its hard to make the decision to do something because if you're wrong the consequences can be, usually are, divesting to ALL.

Yes Bloomberg really is a Looney Tune. I wonder when he's going to be arrested for being complicit is straw purchases. I'm not holding my breath though.
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Last edited by Jerry; 07-26-2012 at 07:20..
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:55   #12
ancient_serpent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
If the mental health system was working most of the people screaming for gun control would be in rubber rooms.
Ok, that's hilarious. And true.
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Old 07-22-2012, 12:55   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
I for one appreciate the time you took. Event if it had been copied and pasted, good information is good information and any information that can be used to show how irrational the gun haters are.... IS.... GOOD..... INFORMATION!

People can and should post and re-post verifiable, helpful statistics every time the haters are on the attack.

You're very welcome. As I said, I used my universities library to look up these stats; I figured the normal ones you see floating around may not have been obtained from a scholarly source and I wanteted to ensure that these were. We are the ambassadors of the firearms world to everyone who isn't. We should do everything we can to be armed with accurate information and be able to present "our" side of the issue intelligently. If this is of help to anyone at all, then it wasn't a waste of time.
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Old 07-25-2012, 11:32   #14
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Most people in this society have been trained to be victims. We have seen self-defense equated with "vigilantism", students in school who defend themselves are punished along with the agressor, and men are told by the media in sit-coms and half the commercials that they are all immature, stupid, inept, doofuses. What do you expect from such indoctrination? Too many "men" whom I know are not really men; they are just middle-aged adolescents.

It is time for the men in this country to each grow a pair and get a length of railroad iron transplanted into their backs to replace the jelly that currently serves them for backbones. And, sadly, I may be among that number. But, I certainly hope not.
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Old 07-25-2012, 14:19   #15
Jerry
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It is time for the men in this country to each grow a pair and get a length of railroad iron transplanted into their backs to replace the jelly that currently serves them for backbones.
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Old 07-25-2012, 21:46   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.1 View Post

After the usual shock and sorrow statements they started getting down to the gun control stuff. Not much I hadn't heard before but the one most puzzling to me (and it has puzzled me for years) is the limiting of magazine size.

I think it shows lack of knowledge on one hand. How many of us, after all, practice magazine changes. If for nothing else but competition. Not hard to get off 30 rounds with two magazine changes.

What bothers me most about the limited capacity argument though, is the fact that these folks are apparently willing to sacrifice the first few people that the limited number of rounds will hit.

Dave

From what I can gather, he had a drum mag in there, I guess that is the Beta that holds 100 rounds? At any rate, I think they were better off that this is what he used since it jammed rather quickly and he couldn't use it any more. From my understanding, these high capacity mags are far less reliable. Had he had multiple 10 round mags he probably could have kept it going till the barrel melted. Then again, if he went back to the shotgun, I would think that would be the more devastating weapon in that situation.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:26   #17
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Then again, if he went back to the shotgun, I would think that would be the more devastating weapon in that situation.
Absolutely! Just think of what he could have done with a couple of 5 gallon cans of gasoline and a match. I wonder if the MORONS would be screaming for more gasoline control. Oh that's right we don't have any yet. Sssshhhhhhh.... don't give the MORONS any ideas.
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