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Old 07-24-2012, 08:29   #26
Fire_Medic
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Alan,

I am not the most experienced of the reloaders around these parts, but I do have experience with these die sets. I was doing some thinking and then verified with the instructions. I really think I know what your issue is.

You have a combo set for both 40SW and 10MM. When you switch to reload for the longer case, you need back the seating dies (station 3 for you on your 550) an extra 1/8" or so to compensate for the extra length of the 10MM case VS the 40SW. You cannot simply screw the die down to the shell plate and back off a bit as that would be for the shorter 40SW.

Please give this a try and attempt to resize another case and let me know if this does the trick.

Thanks
Gabe
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:50   #27
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Hi Gabe,

Good idea, but I just checked the bullet seating die and it is 1/8" above the shellplate when the shellplate is up.

I did some measurements on the G20SF chamber using what I have. A 0.420" unsized starline case and some 0.005" masking tape. It would seem that it is 0.425" at the case mouth end of the chamber (as I can snugly fit a case with masking take on one side into it), but the case head end of the chamber is larger. I can fit a case with two sides masking taped (0.430") and spin it. My guess would be the case mouth end of the chamber is near 0.425" and the case head end is near 0.430". This is assuming my crude way of measuring is at all close to being valid...

The same case without masking tape seems to swim around in the chamber, easily rocked from side to side, etc.

I got an email reply from Redding so I pointed them to the pictures in this thread to get their opinion.

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:58   #28
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Needs to be an "extra" 1/8" from where it would already be backed out for 40SW, back it out another 1/4" or so, if you only have 1/8" total it's still not backed out enough.

Then resize another case and see what happens, that should do it.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:01   #29
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Hi,

Gabe - I'm unfortunately out of fired cases - I need to go back to the range and "make" some more. I'll back it up another 1/8" and see how it does when I get some cases to try. Thanks!

Here a picture of an unsized starline case (0.420) in the chamber:

The 10 Ring

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:23   #30
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Ok Alan, here's some pics. One set with the Barsto Semi Drop-in barrel, and another set with the factory Glock barrel. And one of the gun with the Barsto just as a thanks to Nick for the barrel trade

The 10 Ring

This is a brand new Starline case in the Barsto Barrel:
The 10 Ring

This is new Underwood 180gr FMJ in Barsto barrel:
The 10 Ring

Underwood 180gr Golden Sabre JHP in Barsto Barrel:
The 10 Ring

And this is once fired brass (180gr American Eagle FMJ) shot out of the factory barrel but not resized or anything yet, in the Barsto barrel. Note how it won't even drop in:
The 10 Ring
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:27   #31
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Now the stock barrel:

Brand new Starline case in stock barrel:
The 10 Ring

Underwood 180gr FMJ in Stock barrel:
The 10 Ring

Underwood 180gr Golden Sabre JHP in Stock barrel:
The 10 Ring

And the real shocker, here's that same piece of once fired AE brass that wouldn't drop into the Barsto:
The 10 Ring
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:29   #32
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Hi,

Excellent pictures!!! How much wobble is there in the Glock barrel with the ammo - can you move it left/right/up/down a bit?

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:35   #33
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Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
Hi,

Excellent pictures!!! How much wobble is there in the Glock barrel with the ammo - can you move it left/right/up/down a bit?

Thanks,

Alan
Very minimal movement in the Barsto, but yes movement in the Glock barrel.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:33   #34
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Good stuff Fire Medic, that right there is why I started using a"Pass-Thru sizing system". I have been using the LEE FCD as a"Pass-Thru sizer" with great results reconditioning my brass. Acartridge case gauge is even tighter than the Bar-Sto chamber.
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Old 07-24-2012, 13:50   #35
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Most of this stuff is a non issue. The stock chamber is much bigger. If your dies are right, you don't need a pass thru die. I used Lee dies and sized brass from a factory barrel, and it fit fine in a super tight LoneWolf. The problem is in the dies, most likely the sizing ring. The big problem is that the die is scraping down the brass, rather than squeezing it. There is no need for a different barrel, pass-thru die, etc. You may need your sizer die fixed.

FWIW, I size 10 and 40 brass in the same die position w/ no issues.
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Old 07-24-2012, 14:13   #36
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Most of this stuff is a non issue. The stock chamber is much bigger. If your dies are right, you don't need a pass thru die. I used Lee dies and sized brass from a factory barrel, and it fit fine in a super tight LoneWolf. The problem is in the dies, most likely the sizing ring. The big problem is that the die is scraping down the brass, rather than squeezing it. There is no need for a different barrel, pass-thru die, etc. You may need your sizer die fixed.

FWIW, I size 10 and 40 brass in the same die position w/ no issues.
I agree with this viewpoint. My Dillon sizer has a bigger radius at the mouth than a Lee die and my cases when reloaded fit my KKM barrel fine. Now I do have to say, my KKM barrel is no way as tight or have case support at the ramp like Fire Medic's Barsto. In fact, the difference between my KKM and stock barrel, as it pertains to chamber fit and support around the ramp) is not very great at all (in 10mm, different story on my G21SF).

I get better accuracy out of my stock barrel than my KKM so I rarely use it anyway, so it really isn't an issue for me at all.
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Old 07-24-2012, 14:22   #37
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Hi,

I've been emailing back and forth with Redding a couple of times today and they called me to discuss the issue. He said the pitting look in the picture above is simply because that surface wasn't as polished as my other dies. I did look deeper into the die and the inside of the ring is polished smooth. He also said that it is possible that by sizing the entire case first using their through case sizer might reduce the case ahead of time to a size that the carbide sizer could reduce without the crease. They offered for me to send some cases in that they would run through it and send back so I could see if this would work. He also offered that I could send the die in and they would check it out. They are going to be closed after next week however for their summer vacation at Redding though. I can't complain about Redding support, but I'm still not sure the direction I want to try with this.

What is odd is that I think the side of the case with the bulge is opposite the side of the case with the crease.

I think I'm going to order a Lee Deluxe kit and their bulge buster and do some testing. I'm going to make some more fired cases and try them in the 4 possibilities: Redding sized only, Lee sized only, Lee bulge + Redding sized, Lee bulge + Lee sized...

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-24-2012, 20:22   #38
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Whatever is cool, but I have read that Lee dies size to the same size as their bulge buster. If you want to send me a few cases, I can size them in a regular die, and you can see if you want to invest in anything more than just a different sizer. PM me if you want to do that. Regardless, I hope you get it sorted out one way or another!
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Old 07-24-2012, 20:27   #39
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Hi Any Cal,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
Whatever is cool, but I have read that Lee dies size to the same size as their bulge buster. If you want to send me a few cases, I can size them in a regular die, and you can see if you want to invest in anything more than just a different sizer. PM me if you want to do that. Regardless, I hope you get it sorted out one way or another!
I appreciate that - PM me your address and I'll send 5 cases as soon as I get some more fired ones for you to try to size. Thanks for the help!!

Alan
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:17   #40
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Hi,

By the way, I got my caliper out and measured the factory chamber dimensions :

case mouth 0.425"
case head 0.434"

I am wondering if a replacement barrel is really what I need, KKM, Storm Lake, etc..

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:52   #41
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Hi,

By the way, I got my caliper out and measured the factory chamber dimensions :

case mouth 0.425"
case head 0.434"

I am wondering if a replacement barrel is really what I need, KKM, Storm Lake, etc..

Thanks,

Alan
I only have one 10mm KKM barrel and have never actually measured it. While the ramp cut is a little more shallow than my stock barrels (a little less intrusion into the chamber), the chamber seems as loose at the head as my stock barrels (i.e. you can wiggle the round around quite a bit, less with previously fired brass and its fatter girth ).

I think if a tighter chamber is what you are looking for, maybe a Barsto like Fire Medic has will get you there, not sure the KKM will be a large impriovement, at least judging from my one and only example.
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:58   #42
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Hi,

The other contender (they offer black with QPQ) is Storm Lake. I don't love the side logo however. They said their dimensions are 0.424" case mouth, 0.4281" case head. I am waiting for KKM to respond with my chamber dimension request.

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:18   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
I only have one 10mm KKM barrel and have never actually measured it. While the ramp cut is a little more shallow than my stock barrels (a little less intrusion into the chamber), the chamber seems as loose at the head as my stock barrels (i.e. you can wiggle the round around quite a bit, less with previously fired brass and its fatter girth ).

I think if a tighter chamber is what you are looking for, maybe a Barsto like Fire Medic has will get you there, not sure the KKM will be a large impriovement, at least judging from my one and only example.
I've owned Federal, KKM and Barsto with Glocks and a custom ramped Fusion 1911 longslide barrel. The tightest of them all have been Barsto and Fusion, both of which fed the BEST of all of them, ironically. Tight doesn't mean poor feeding, and open doesn't guaranteed good feeding. FWIW, my Barsto (both ones I owned) measured .425-.426" and my Fusion measured the same.

I just got a 6" KKM for my G20sf and it also measures .4260-.4265".
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:27   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire_Medic View Post
...thanks to Nick for the barrel trade
Thanks to Gabe for the barrel trade, as well! We killed two birds with one stone... the "model of efficiency" ha!! BTW, that Barsto is the best, most accurate, well supported and strongest barrel money can buy. You can bet on that. The case support on the Barsto is unreal. It was the same on my 6" Barsto years back.... Irv Stone definitely knows "what's up"

BTW....

Gabe 2
Nick 0

lol
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Old 07-25-2012, 11:32   #45
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Hi,

I'm looking for super supported so much as I am looking for 100% reliable and still reloadable...

Thanks everyone,

Alan
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Old 07-25-2012, 20:20   #46
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Hi,

Is there a difference between case support at the 6 o'clock position and overall chamber looseness? For example, with a new unsized case in the chamber, it looks like there is maybe between 1/16th to 3/32nd's of exposed case at the 6 o'clock area. I chopped one of my destroyed cases in half and it looks like it is pretty solid about that far in. Would this mean that it has pretty decent support against a blowout even though the overall chamber is oversized and allows the brass to balloon into it?

Just rambling! I ordered the Lee dies and bulge buster kit today just to see how it compares.

Thanks

Alan
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Old 07-25-2012, 21:40   #47
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Alan,

Taterhead,

I'm definitely in the minority here on how I determine pressure limits from fired brass measurements. I know most people measure the case expansion along the thin walls of the case, and that does have some merit. The reason I don't measure there is that part of the brass is constrained by the chamber when it expands, and there is almost always a little bit of spring-back after the pressure drops. So the expansion there approaches a diminishing number as you approach maximum pressure. Instead, I measure expansion at the case head, which is around the thick part of the brass web just above the extraction groove. Even though the expansion there is not as large on a moderately loaded round, the brass isn't constrained by the chamber there, so it is free to increase as the pressure goes up. You get a much more linear measurement, especially at max loadings. I also only measure the first loading with Starline brass. After the first firing, you don't really know what the starting dimension of the case head was, and the brass will start work hardening more after each firing.

I'm not saying one method is right and the other is wrong, I just have found that for me, measuring at the case head gives me what I feel is more useful data.
Ah. Got it. That makes sense if you are measuring a different spot. Thanks for clarifying.
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Old 07-25-2012, 21:49   #48
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Most of this stuff is a non issue. The stock chamber is much bigger. If your dies are right, you don't need a pass thru die. ... The problem is in the dies, most likely the sizing ring. The big problem is that the die is scraping down the brass, rather than squeezing it. There is no need for a different barrel, pass-thru die, etc. You may need your sizer die fixed.

FWIW, I size 10 and 40 brass in the same die position w/ no issues.
I completely agree. No need for a pass through die if using the stock barrel. 10 & 40 is resized in the same position. Carbide dies will be turned all the way down to the shell holder and then backed off a hair so that they just barely do not make contact. I really think this is a resizer issue -- IF -- there wasn't an excessive bulge or glocksmile prior to resizing.
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Old 07-25-2012, 21:58   #49
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Hi,

Quote:
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-- IF -- there wasn't an excessive bulge or glocksmile prior to resizing.
I'm not sure if there was excessive bulge or not. It was a medium power load. I didn't see the glock smile in them.

Next time I'll measure the fired cases...

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:06   #50
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Hi,

Is there a difference between case support at the 6 o'clock position and overall chamber looseness? For example, with a new unsized case in the chamber, it looks like there is maybe between 1/16th to 3/32nd's of exposed case at the 6 o'clock area. I chopped one of my destroyed cases in half and it looks like it is pretty solid about that far in. Would this mean that it has pretty decent support against a blowout even though the overall chamber is oversized and allows the brass to balloon into it?

Just rambling! I ordered the Lee dies and bulge buster kit today just to see how it compares.

Thanks

Alan
Generally when people on GT talk about case support, they are referring to how far the feed ramp intrudes into the chamber.

A tight chamber can have good or bad case support, depending on how the feed ramp is cut, but the loose chamber usually doesn't have great case support.

Whether full casehead support even matters is another story altogether...
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