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Old 08-08-2012, 06:55   #1
RussP
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Business bans firearms: How to show them that leaves only bad guys armed?

Recent events, the Aurora shooting and subsequent OC sightings, illustrate a need. How do we show business owners that banning firearms carried legally for self defense is simply a feel-good placebo. A sign will not stop illegal activity.

How about talking to the owners and/or management? Meet with them face to face. But, do not talk about carrying at first. Get to know them. Let them accept you as the good guy/good woman you are. Then broach the subject. Yep, it is going to take time, but you have a lot of negative press to overcome.

What are your thoughts?
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Old 08-08-2012, 07:45   #2
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I've had much better luck showing them receipts from things I've bought and told them it was specifically because of the sign in the window. Almost every place I've done that to has taken the sign down, especially those that other people do the same.

Changing their mind about (dis)allowing CCW takes a long time. If you show them they're losing money, that takes a hell of a lot less time. After a while they'll see they haven't open the flood gates to shoot outs.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:04   #3
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I've had much better luck showing them receipts from things I've bought and told them it was specifically because of the sign in the window. Almost every place I've done that to has taken the sign down, especially those that other people do the same.

Changing their mind about (dis)allowing CCW takes a long time. If you show them they're losing money, that takes a hell of a lot less time. After a while they'll see they haven't open the flood gates to shoot outs.
Yup - talk to the wallet in the universal language: $$$

A slight twist to the old saying about hearts and minds, HG.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:08   #4
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I don't know how. My girlfriend works at a bank, and I still can't get her to see how ridiculous the sign they have up saying no hats or sunglasses allowed in the bank is.

I keep asking her, "Why don't you just put up a sign saying no bank robberies allowed in the bank?"

She still doesn't get it.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:25   #5
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I don't know how. My girlfriend works at a bank, and I still can't get her to see how ridiculous the sign they have up saying no hats or sunglasses allowed in the bank is.

I keep asking her, "Why don't you just put up a sign saying no bank robberies allowed in the bank?"

She still doesn't get it.
I don't get it either...

What if they put up a sign that said,

'Masks Not Allowed - Please Remove Before Entering Bank.'
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:17   #6
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Recent events, the Aurora shooting and subsequent OC sightings, illustrate a need. How do we show business owners that banning firearms carried legally for self defense is simply a feel-good placebo. A sign will not stop illegal activity.

How about talking to the owners and/or management? Meet with them face to face. But, do not talk about carrying at first. Get to know them. Let them accept you as the good guy/good woman you are. Then broach the subject. Yep, it is going to take time, but you have a lot of negative press to overcome.

What are your thoughts?
My LGS has a very visible sign that says all guns must be checked in at the front counter. So I asked a manager who I know well if that applies to concealed carry. He looked me straight in the eye and said, "if it's concealed, then how do I know you have gun?" He went on to say, "concealed means concealed, keep it in the holster and we won't have any problems."

I want to brush up on my California laws, but from what I recall those signs do not apply to CCW holders with the exception of post offices, courthouses and certain federal buildings. However, once you are confronted and told to leave, you must exit the premises.

Over the past few weeks, I have been actively looking for no guns signs being posted in businesses and have not seen any except the one I mentioned above. I am not sure if California is callous to shootings or it is just the area in which I reside. I will say, that as business owner, I am definitely paying more attention to the 3-4 o'clock side of the waistband of customers. So far I have made 1 guy, it was pretty easy though...fanny pack, tac lite and knife in 5.11 style shorts. For kicks, I went to the parking lot and looked at the back of his truck and saw the NRA lifetime member sticker, I guess this guy knows nothing about being grey!
Scott
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:31   #7
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When Kansas first got the CCL law passed and people started carrying, there were a lot of places those signs went up. After about a year I noticed a lot of them came down. I asked a couple of the managers at different store why the signs came down. They said they were losing money from people not shopping there because they had a no gun sign. Hurting the wallet will go further than talking to them in most cases.


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Old 08-08-2012, 12:41   #8
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I've had much better luck showing them receipts from things I've bought and told them it was specifically because of the sign in the window. Almost every place I've done that to has taken the sign down, especially those that other people do the same.

Changing their mind about (dis)allowing CCW takes a long time. If you show them they're losing money, that takes a hell of a lot less time. After a while they'll see they haven't open the flood gates to shoot outs.
I take a similar approach. I also let the offending business know that I voice my opposition/contempt to all my friends, relatives and associates and encourage them not to do any business with them.

My desire is that such businesses "whither on the vine."

RJ
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:46   #9
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best way to show them? Simple. Wait........after they get robbed 8-10 times they will figure it out on their own.
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Old 08-08-2012, 13:01   #10
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I printed off a bunch of these in business card size:

Carry Issues



I hand it to the manager along with the receipt for what I spent at their competitor. It's non-confrontational, and usually I'm out the door before they've looked at the card long enough to comprehend what it means.
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Old 08-08-2012, 13:03   #11
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From my own anecdotal conversations, one thing I have uncovered is: it seems like a perception issue the business owner wants to convey to the unarmed customer. Lets face, there are many sheeple out there that believe, if the sign or something that indicates the prohibition of firearms in the store, is posted, the customers 'feels' safer. So they will post to help provide comfort to the soccer mom who shows up. So there are those who post a sign just based on what the customer may feel. If they feel safe coming in, they will return.

In addition, some business owners thinks/believes their general liability policy will not provide coverage if they don't post for no firearms. I have not seen any general liability policy that excludes coverage if someone uses a firearm and they don't have it posted or not. It's a myth.

What I have done, like several have mentioned, showed them my receipt for a product they carry, but I purchased at a place that wasn't posted. In addition, I have approached a few managers and just planted the seed and asked them to research if it was a corporate decision or a prior manager's feelings. I was able to convince a local restaurant manager to remove their signage through this avenue.

IMHO, I think it takes a that personal conversation, not an attack over the sign, but a convo on what does that sign mean in a civil tone. Unfortunately, there are very liberal business owners who you will never be able to change their mind.

It's a slow process, but one that can be won.



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Old 08-08-2012, 13:09   #12
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A lot of it is in the approach. My brother-in-law owns four restaurants and he was complaining to me one day about a guy that was carrying concealed in one of his stores, in a more affluent area. I asked what the problem was and he said it was one of the jerks that came in (obviously looking for an argument) and asked if my BIL cared about guys that CCW. My BIL was honest and said he would rather no one carried in his store, but he's not going to post the No Carry signs unless it becomes an issue. My BIL asked the jerk "why CCW and then start asking business owners if they cared or not? Isn't it supposed to be a secret?"
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Old 08-08-2012, 13:22   #13
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That is one thing about OC that can effect me even though I am a CC'r. OC in businesses can cause the "oh no! There is a gun in my store, i must do something" syndrome. The most popular autonomic response to the onset of this syndrome is to post NO GUN signs.

I feel that each private business has the right to bar firearms if they please and I will not confront them about it. I would not want some yahoo confronting me and yammering about how they dont like my decision to carry. My response to businesses that post NO GUNS will be to shop somewhere else.

I have nothing against peaceful activism but its just not in my blood or design.
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Old 08-08-2012, 13:53   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Recent events, the Aurora shooting and subsequent OC sightings, illustrate a need. How do we show business owners that banning firearms carried legally for self defense is simply a feel-good placebo. A sign will not stop illegal activity.

How about talking to the owners and/or management? Meet with them face to face. But, do not talk about carrying at first. Get to know them. Let them accept you as the good guy/good woman you are. Then broach the subject. Yep, it is going to take time, but you have a lot of negative press to overcome.

What are your thoughts?
Hey Russ. I was thinking about this very topic the other morning.
We can show business owners through personal, non confrontational contact that we CCW'ers are not a problem. We can appeal to reason. We can influence them through financial means, such as the little cards that say we will shop elsewhere. We can suggest literature that demonstrates the statistical benefits of CCW.
We can do all of these things, but ultimately we can't make them connect the dots. As the story about the "no hats/sunglasses" inside the bank story shows, some people either lack the critical thinking skills to view the situation in a reasonable manner or they refuse to do so, due to emotional involvement.
I stopped eating at my local Buffalo Wild Wings after I noticed their "no guns" sign. I called the manager and explained why I would no longer eat there, he didn't seem to care. At first it irritated me, but then, I realized that if enough people do as I did, he will have to care.
Or get fired.
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Old 08-08-2012, 18:42   #15
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My guess is that with a locally owned business, a polite conversation along with some sort of indication of potential or actual loss of business would be the best avenue. I would guess that with businesses that are national these decisions rest ultimately with their legal staff and that corporate officers would defer to the lawyers. But I also admit that my business knowledge is challenged enough such that something as simple as balancing my checkbook is a very long shot.
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Old 08-08-2012, 21:02   #16
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Some people will simply never get it. They do not and will not ever make the connection that a sign doesn't affect anyone who's already willing to do them harm, it only affects the law abiding citizen, who would not harm them and would only likely defend them.

I have this debate with co-workers all the time, as we're not permitted to carry at work. Some people just cannot be convinced. We're not the type of company that will ever experience a loss of revenue because we don't cater to the public or foot traffic.

The sign is simply a false sense of security, just like the TSA.

Glock 9mm, you should double check your laws. I'm not 100% sure about Kalifornia, but generally speaking, if they post the sign it DOES affect you, the CCW holder and any other legally carrying non LEO, including licensed armed security folks.
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Old 08-09-2012, 02:31   #17
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....Glock 9mm, you should double check your laws. I'm not 100% sure about Kalifornia, but generally speaking, if they post the sign it DOES affect you, the CCW holder and any other legally carrying non LEO, including licensed armed security folks.
I did do some research and this is what I found from a reliable source.

http://www.usacarry.com/california_c..._permit_o.html

I will sum it up:

"California law does not prohibit CCW holders from carrying in a private business establishment, even if they post a sign and/or search people entering. However, they are within their rights to ask you to leave (temporarily or permanently) if they find out – and you are trespassing if you don’t leave after being asked."

I told you California is, um, different!

Scott
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Old 08-09-2012, 05:41   #18
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I have much better things to do in my life than try to convince a store owner of anything. Signs like those described simply equal no business from me...period.
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Old 08-09-2012, 06:24   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock_9mm View Post
I did do some research and this is what I found from a reliable source.

http://www.usacarry.com/california_c..._permit_o.html

I will sum it up:

"California law does not prohibit CCW holders from carrying in a private business establishment, even if they post a sign and/or search people entering. However, they are within their rights to ask you to leave (temporarily or permanently) if they find out – and you are trespassing if you don’t leave after being asked."

I told you California is, um, different!

Scott
California actually has some of the best CCW laws around and one of the smallest no carry lists.

It's GETTING the permit that's in question in some places.
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Old 08-09-2012, 06:26   #20
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I have much better things to do in my life than try to convince a store owner of anything. Signs like those described simply equal no business from me...period.
How will/can they even contemplate changing if you don't tell them why they are losing business? 5 minutes of "hey, I went down the street for my widget" may increase the places not posted.

Then the next person looking for the widget doesn't have to go somewhere else. It's a civic duty, it is
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