Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-09-2012, 19:31   #1
IndyGunFreak
KO Windows
 
IndyGunFreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 30,330
Send a message via ICQ to IndyGunFreak Send a message via AIM to IndyGunFreak Send a message via MSN to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Yahoo to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Skype™ to IndyGunFreak


Florida "Stand Your Ground" case on First 48

Basically, a guy caught a dude breaking into his car. He claims dude swung a bag of radios at his head, he chased him down and stabbed him (the actual stabbing was caught on surveillance footage, but was difficult to make out). Took the police a few days to find him. Guy basically sat down on the sidewalk after he was stabbed, and bled out.

He made a pretty damning confession. Despite this, his lawyer argued it should be dismissed due to stand your ground. Judge dismissed the case on stand your ground, saying the bag of radios were a lethal weapon.

3mo later, the guy is shot in the crossfire of a gang shootout. Supposedly he was an innocent victim in that shootout.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1385219.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1630974.html
__________________
Quote:
Ronald Reagan
"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
"Man is not free unless Government is limited"

Last edited by IndyGunFreak; 08-09-2012 at 19:33..
IndyGunFreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2012, 22:15   #2
JW1178
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,002
He could have been in deep water because he presued him, but he has a right to his personal property that had been stolen.
JW1178 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2012, 22:23   #3
Drain You
NRA member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,832
I have seen the originally story & then the follow up about the shooting online already. I also caught most of the show tonight.

If him being shot was really part of a plot by family members of the guy he stabbed, I wouldn't blame them & applaud them. Not saying you should go around robbing & attacking people, but just sayin'
Drain You is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2012, 22:42   #4
Glock_9mm
Senior Member
 
Glock_9mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: California
Posts: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drain You View Post
...If him being shot was really part of a plot by family members of the guy he stabbed, I wouldn't blame them & applaud them. Not saying you should go around robbing & attacking people, but just sayin'
It appears that you have seen more and have more knowlegde on this than the two articles posted above, but your post peaked my curiosity.

My first impression is that the guy who was robbed and did the stabbing was not a saint. However, he was not charged and the case was dismissed by the judge. If he was killed by the robbers family, are you saying you condone that people take justice into their own hands?

I ask this with the utmost sincerity because sometimes posts can be misunderstood.
Scott

Last edited by Glock_9mm; 08-09-2012 at 23:29..
Glock_9mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2012, 22:53   #5
Drain You
NRA member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,832
Guy was breaking into his truck to steal the radio, 2nd guy confronted him and gave chase. Guy #1 tried hitting chaser with bag of radios, guy #2 stabbed him to death, walked scott free.


I can certainly understand the family's frustration & anger.
Should every family take vengeance? No. But if some should, this family would be high on the list.

Not being directly involved in the situation I personally think they both got was coming to them.
Drain You is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2012, 23:38   #6
skippz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: East Kentucky
Posts: 542
I don't agree with the slaying of the perp... Perhaps a little overboard. But if you are robbing or stealing from someone, you should be fully aware and actually expect you may be justifiably made dead.
skippz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2012, 06:39   #7
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 21,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak View Post
Supposedly he was an innocent victim in that shootout.
Karma never visits innocent victims.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2012, 06:44   #8
John43
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Murrells Inlet SC
Posts: 914
I saw this show and I couldn't believe they called the robber the VICTIM!.
John43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2012, 06:48   #9
JW1178
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,002
Lesson Learned:

Don't bring a bag of car stereos to a knife fight.

Stay out of the line of fire even if you have a knife.

The order

Gun beats Knife
Knife beats Stereos
But would a bag of stereos beat a gun considering you might be able to use the stereos the block the bullets?
Paper, Rock, Sissors?

Last edited by JW1178; 08-10-2012 at 06:51..
JW1178 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2012, 08:10   #10
fuzzy03cls
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,744
Judge fail..... I don't see how this was dropped by SYG definition.. This is why SYG is so suspect.
fuzzy03cls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2012, 09:11   #11
IndyGunFreak
KO Windows
 
IndyGunFreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 30,330
Send a message via ICQ to IndyGunFreak Send a message via AIM to IndyGunFreak Send a message via MSN to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Yahoo to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Skype™ to IndyGunFreak


Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy03cls View Post
Judge fail..... I don't see how this was dropped by SYG definition.. This is why SYG is so suspect.
IIRC, the judge ruled the bag of radios was a weapon when he swung it at the guys head.... This was the whole crux of the stand your ground defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drain You View Post
I can certainly understand the family's frustration & anger.
Should every family take vengeance? No. But if some should, this family would be high on the list.
.
While the stabber was no saint, I'm not sure I agree here. The guy was stabbed and killed while breaking into his truck and stealing his property. I have no sympathy for thieves. Since he had a "bag of radios" it's quite likely he broke into several vehicles that night.

They wouldn't even make my "list" of people who should be seeking vengeance.
__________________
Quote:
Ronald Reagan
"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
"Man is not free unless Government is limited"
IndyGunFreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2012, 09:52   #12
fuzzy03cls
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,744
Quote:
IIRC, the judge ruled the bag of radios was a weapon when he swung it at the guys head.... This was the whole crux of the stand your ground defense.
That's self defense, not SYG. I don't see how a "bag of radios" being swung at you would be in fear of great bodily harm or death as in FL statutes. It's another misuse of the law IMHO.

I'm not a judge though & don't have access to all the evidence.

Last edited by fuzzy03cls; 08-10-2012 at 09:53..
fuzzy03cls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2012, 13:31   #13
IndyGunFreak
KO Windows
 
IndyGunFreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 30,330
Send a message via ICQ to IndyGunFreak Send a message via AIM to IndyGunFreak Send a message via MSN to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Yahoo to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Skype™ to IndyGunFreak


Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy03cls View Post
That's self defense, not SYG. I don't see how a "bag of radios" being swung at you would be in fear of great bodily harm or death as in FL statutes. It's another misuse of the law IMHO.

I'm not a judge though & don't have access to all the evidence.
Stand Your Ground came into play because the prosecutors said he should have retreated. He had no duty to retreat since his property was being stolen... thus SYG.
__________________
Quote:
Ronald Reagan
"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
"Man is not free unless Government is limited"
IndyGunFreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2012, 14:13   #14
Chris Chris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak View Post
Stand Your Ground came into play because the prosecutors said he should have retreated. He had no duty to retreat since his property was being stolen... thus SYG.
A heavy bag of radios/equipment swung at you could very logically be considered a "deadly weapon... placing a reasonable man in immenent danger of death or serious bodily injury". SYG is certainly in order.

What I don't understand... from reading what is available on this subject... is why the Judge granted SYG immunity after the "victim" chased the perp down and stabbed him.

There is no SYG or 'self-defense' involved in that. The "victim" became the attacker when he pursued and assaulted the perp with deadly force. IMHO, the radio thief would have had the claim to SYG self defense here.

He was running away. No threat to the victim then existed. The 'victim' then pursued and assaulted.

In light of the law regarding SYG, the Judges decision does not make sense to me. No self defense statutes that I am aware of allow one to kill to recover stolen property by pursuing the thief and using deadly force on them.
Chris Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2012, 15:00   #15
IndyGunFreak
KO Windows
 
IndyGunFreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 30,330
Send a message via ICQ to IndyGunFreak Send a message via AIM to IndyGunFreak Send a message via MSN to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Yahoo to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Skype™ to IndyGunFreak


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Chris View Post
A heavy bag of radios/equipment swung at you could very logically be considered a "deadly weapon... placing a reasonable man in immenent danger of death or serious bodily injury". SYG is certainly in order.

What I don't understand... from reading what is available on this subject... is why the Judge granted SYG immunity after the "victim" chased the perp down and stabbed him.

There is no SYG or 'self-defense' involved in that. The "victim" became the attacker when he pursued and assaulted the perp with deadly force. IMHO, the radio thief would have had the claim to SYG self defense here.

He was running away. No threat to the victim then existed. The 'victim' then pursued and assaulted.
You can't be committing a crime (ie, breaking into vehicles and stealing radios) and claim stand your ground.
__________________
Quote:
Ronald Reagan
"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
"Man is not free unless Government is limited"
IndyGunFreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2012, 15:57   #16
poodleplumber
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,081
Quote:
You can't be committing a crime (ie, breaking into vehicles and stealing radios) and claim stand your ground.
Agreed. But neither am I certain that chasing down the criminal and stabbing (or shooting, or beating) him is standing your ground, either. SYG to me connotes making a defensive stand on the ground you already occupy, not aggression and pursuit. Personally, I don't want to see SYG laws repealed because the interpretations start to look like justification for vigilantism.
poodleplumber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2012, 17:40   #17
Chris Chris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak View Post
You can't be committing a crime (ie, breaking into vehicles and stealing radios) and claim stand your ground.
The SYG claim was not raised by the perp who broke into the vehicle and stole the radios. He's dead and makes no claims.

The SYG claim was made by the individual whose vehicle was broken into and whose radios were stolen. He is the one who then chased the radio thief down and stabbed him to death.

It's hard for me to see any degree of 'self defense' there. And, as far as SYG... the stabber had to chase the thief in order to catch him and stab him to death.

What ground did he 'stand'?

The SYG law is a good one. Misinterpretations and mis-applications only serve to provide fodder for those who would overturn this fine law. Just MHO.
Chris Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2012, 22:15   #18
IndyGunFreak
KO Windows
 
IndyGunFreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 30,330
Send a message via ICQ to IndyGunFreak Send a message via AIM to IndyGunFreak Send a message via MSN to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Yahoo to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Skype™ to IndyGunFreak


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Chris View Post
The SYG claim was not raised by the perp who broke into the vehicle and stole the radios. He's dead and makes no claims.
I know that, you said if anyone had a SYG claim, it was the radio thief. You can't be committing a crime and claim you were standing your ground.

As for the rest of your post... I wish I could find the video, while the knifer did run after the guy, the guy was also swinging at him (granted, natural reaction to block a knife).

I personally don't have a problem with the way the law was applied in this case.
__________________
Quote:
Ronald Reagan
"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
"Man is not free unless Government is limited"
IndyGunFreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 09:20   #19
beatcop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 1,900
Don't kill someone over "things"
beatcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 11:34   #20
IndyGunFreak
KO Windows
 
IndyGunFreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 30,330
Send a message via ICQ to IndyGunFreak Send a message via AIM to IndyGunFreak Send a message via MSN to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Yahoo to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Skype™ to IndyGunFreak


Quote:
Originally Posted by beatcop View Post
Don't kill someone over "things"
This attitude is why theft, burglary, robbery, etc.. is so rampant. Personally, I think this is one of the better reasons to kill someone.
__________________
Quote:
Ronald Reagan
"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
"Man is not free unless Government is limited"

Last edited by IndyGunFreak; 08-11-2012 at 11:35..
IndyGunFreak is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:48.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 753
141 Members
612 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31