Army general is military's first openly gay flag officer - Page 9

KalashniKEV · 08-13-2012, 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by dereklord

I may wet the bed, but...

I am a realist. I have nothing against anyone for things that they cannont control. However, being a realist, I have to say that I have issues with people if they were to CHOOSE to do something wrong. This lady can do and be whatever she wants. Heck, she could move on to Columbia and get involved in the international drug trade for all that matters. But, if she lied, she should be able to accept the consequenses. If she gets caught while in Columbia producing/packaging/transporting 200 kilo's of boogar sugar, she should be able to accept the consequenses. Either way, she might be a fine American and a nice person.

Now that's a better analogy, she should have known that her sexuality barred her from the possibility of service to Nation.

The fact that she kept her sexual business to herself, chose to sign the dotted line, raise her right hand and risk it all... despite all of this...

now that's much more similar to producing/packaging/transporting 200 kilos of cocaine than serial murder or child molestation.

Dude... go see a shrink!

magic · 08-13-2012, 08:45

The question still remains if there was actually a written question "Are you gay?" on the application that she signed. Or if it was the verbal question as mentioned before, was she under oath? Finally, regardless of her promotions, what is the army punishment for lying on your application? I suppose it depends on the lie, but there has to be a minimum punishment of some sort. Does the lying on the application strip you of your position and awards? There must be some case history of something similar.

KalashniKEV · 08-13-2012, 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic

The question still remains if there was actually a written question "Are you gay?" on the application that she signed.

I took no Sex Oath in 1998, but that was after DADT ('93).

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic

Finally, regardless of her promotions, what is the army punishment for lying on your application?

Article 83 Fraudulent Enlistment or Appointment.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punit...es/a/mcm83.htm

magic · 08-13-2012, 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by KalashniKEV

I took no Sex Oath in 1998, but that was after DADT ('93).

Article 83 Fraudulent Enlistment or Appointment.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punit...es/a/mcm83.htm

So, it says punishment is basically whatever a court martial decides. Could be that they don't even bother with the gay issue, who knows?

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

kensb2 · 08-13-2012, 08:57

It's hard to say how deserving she is of this promotion, without seeing her service record. I'd have to guess that it's pretty damned good. That being said, whether or not you agree(d) with the policies/UCMJ rules governing homosexuality in the military, they were still in place. They still had to be followed. I think people would view this differently if the only info out there was "Army promotes first flag officer that openly admits to lying on their enlistment/commision paperwork". If (big IF) she lied to get into the military, then she fraudulently enlisted and COULD be court martialed and kicked out. What I would want to see, at a minimum, is her receiving a letter of reprimand that would help bar her from further promotion, and a 1 grade reduction in rank. No, I don't care that she's gay, in case anyone is wondering. There are probably a great many things in the Army that people would view as "unfair". But you choose to join the Army.

fnfalman · 08-13-2012, 08:58

The UCMJ considers oral sex to be a form of sodomy.

How many active duty military personnel have engaged in oral sex?

kensb2 · 08-13-2012, 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by fnfalman

The UCMJ considers oral sex to be a form of sodomy.

How many active duty military personnel have engaged in oral sex?

Pobably a lot. And that would be one of those cases that doesn't seem "fair". It also states that the missionary position is the only acceptable sexual position. However, if someone were to get pictures of my wife performing oral sex on me, then I could be punished under the UCMJ. Realistically, would I be? Probably not. But could I be? Definitely.

fnfalman · 08-13-2012, 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensb2

Pobably a lot. And that would be one of those cases that doesn't seem "fair". It also states that the missionary position is the only acceptable sexual position. However, if someone were to get pictures of my wife performing oral sex on me, then I could be punished under the UCMJ. Realistically, would I be? Probably not. But could I be? Definitely.

You know it was against the UCMJ then why did you purposely violate the code?

Can I question your service and integrity now?

KalashniKEV · 08-13-2012, 09:07

I think some of you guys should write Lieutenant General Dana Kyle Chipman, the Judge Advocate General of the United States Army, and see if he wants to prosecute this.

Here are your POCs:

http://www.dodig.mil/HOTLINE/Filing%...ices_popup.htm

magic · 08-13-2012, 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by fnfalman

The UCMJ considers oral sex to be a form of sodomy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensb2

It also states that the missionary position is the only acceptable sexual position.

What a bunch of party poopers.

kensb2 · 08-13-2012, 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by fnfalman

You know it was against the UCMJ then why did you purposely violate the code?

Can I question your service and integrity now?

You can if you'd like. However, I never said that it happened. I said if it happened. I guess you just glossed over the word when I read the statement.

KalashniKEV · 08-13-2012, 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensb2

It also states that the missionary position is the only acceptable sexual position.

That's not what it says.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Article 125

“(a) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration, however slight, is sufficient
to complete the offense.

(b) Any person found guilty of sodomy shall by punished as a court-martial may direct.”

I wasn't sure if "natural carnal copulation" could be construed to mean doggy style, because it is more natural... and always wondered if reverse cowgirl in the back of the FLA, in between the litter racks, was in violation of Article 125.

Then I discovered that the true definition is:

Quote:

It is unnatural carnal copulation for a person to take into that person’s mouth or anus the sexual organ of another person or of an animal; or to place that person’s sexual organ in the mouth or anus of another person or of an animal; or to have carnal copulation in any opening of the body, except the sexual parts, with another person; or to have carnal copulation with an animal.

kensb2 · 08-13-2012, 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by KalashniKEV

I think some of you guys should write Lieutenant General Dana Kyle Chipman, the Judge Advocate General of the United States Army, and see if he wants to prosecute this.

Here are your POCs:

http://www.dodig.mil/HOTLINE/Filing%...ices_popup.htm

For him to do that would be career suicide. There is no way that this promotion isn't at least a little bit politically motivated. And not from the standpoint of the current Administration. More from the military machine saying that now that we've gotten rid of DADT, they have to show all the troops that it wasn't just lip service.

fnfalman · 08-13-2012, 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic

What a bunch of party poopers.

But that's The Law!!!

magic · 08-13-2012, 09:17

This is old news....but.....

http://www.stripes.com/news/panel-ur...my-ban-1.95937

Says most cases are not prosecuted.

fnfalman · 08-13-2012, 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensb2

For him to do that would be career suicide. There is no way that this promotion isn't at least a little bit politically motivated. And not from the standpoint of the current Administration. More from the military machine saying that now that we've gotten rid of DADT, they have to show all the troops that it wasn't just lip service.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Generals and admirals who aren't white were also promoted because of politics too, and not because of their achievements either.

kensb2 · 08-13-2012, 09:22

I thought I had read that in the UCMJ personally, but if not then I stand corrected (on the position statement).
And the reverse cowgirl in the back of the FLA would probably violate more than 1 article of the UCMJ, even if you had commited such an act with your wife. That being said, I probably (as your NCO) would've just told you not to do it again.

kensb2 · 08-13-2012, 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by fnfalman

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Generals and admirals who aren't white were also promoted because of politics too, and not because of their achievements either.

That wasn't what I said, but ok. I'd say it's pretty naive to think that her promotion had absolutely nothing to do with her being 'openly' gay. Like I said earlier, her service record is probably damned good, and she was qualified to be considered for the appointment. But if I'm sitting on the JCS, and the last 2 packets that come across my desk are equal, and 1 is a white male, the other is her...chances are she gets the promotion recommendation. Why? Because the military was intolerant of black people, and women, and gays for so long. How do you change that perception? By doing things that are highly visible to both the troops, and general public.

KalashniKEV · 08-13-2012, 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensb2

For him to do that would be career suicide.

More from the military machine saying that now that we've gotten rid of DADT, they have to show all the troops that it wasn't just lip service.

Career Suicide?

Certainly not.

It's not a completely baseless accusation like that birther kook.

Maybe her assigned soldiers should refuse her orders?

OR maybe we should fight WITH the team instead of against it!

:salute:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensb2

That being said, I probably (as your NCO) would've just told you not to do it again.

I probably (as an officer) would have said, "Don't playa hate... congratulate, sar'nt!"

Ummagumma · 08-13-2012, 09:37

So it appears that every service member that ever had a BJ is a lier since they violated the same rule as she did ?

KalashniKEV · 08-13-2012, 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ummagumma

So it appears that every service member that ever had a BJ is a lier since they violated the same rule as she did ?

That's basically it... but come on, don't think about it too much, just get your HATE ON!

GlockPistola · 08-13-2012, 09:49

I always wondered why some people are so threatened by gays serving in the military. Maybe it's the thought of having thousands of well trained gay men and women with fully automatic weapons walking around asking: "Who did you call a fag?"

kensb2 · 08-13-2012, 09:53

They didn't violate the same rules, IF she lied and fraudulently enlisted. And I would pose this question. Say next year, the gov't and military decide to make marijauna use legal. Does every soldier that pissed hot for it and lost rank get it all back, plus backpay, plus an extra promotion because that offense probably inhibited their career?
Again, I'm not against her having been promoted, she probably deserved it. And again, I don't personally care that she's gay, either.

gwalchmai · 08-13-2012, 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by fnfalman

The UCMJ considers oral sex to be a form of sodomy.

Could you post a link to cite that, please? I don't recall that ever being mentioned when I was in. Of course, oral sex may not have been invented back then...

fnfalman · 08-13-2012, 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ummagumma

So it appears that every service member that ever had a BJ is a lier since they violated the same rule as she did ?

UCMJ code violation is UCMJ code violation. The violater knew about the code yet purposely flaunted it. I therefore question every military man and woman's ethics and integrity for doing so.