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Old 12-12-2012, 16:57   #1
rkrk
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410 for home defense

I am looking to get my dad a shotgun for HD. I am thinking of a 410 side by side. At 80 he is far from feeble but I feel he (and his wife who also wants to be able to use the gun) will be more proficient with a lighter, more easily wielded gun.

He has shouldered my 590A1 and grunted at its weight.

My other consideration is how little I expect him to shoot/train with the gun and a side by side seems like it will offer the simplest platform.

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance
Rk
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Old 12-12-2012, 17:11   #2
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I'd go with a 20g "coach gun" style. I agree that a double is a great, simple system to operate.

.410 is pitiful, even for small game. It throws a pitiful pattern full of holes. .410 slugs are also pretty useless. The new .410 loads designed for for the Judge type handguns are gimmicky, and I wouldn't trust them for SD. I grew up hunting with a .410 and realized its limitations pretty quickly, even on small game.

Step up to 20g and you still have a smaller lightweight gun, but now its capable of real SD. 20 pellets of #3 buck is no joke.
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Old 12-12-2012, 17:21   #3
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I'd go with a 20g "coach gun" style. I agree that a double is a great, simple system to operate.

.410 is pitiful, even for small game. It throws a pitiful pattern full of holes. .410 slugs are also pretty useless. The new .410 loads designed for for the Judge type handguns are gimmicky, and I wouldn't trust them for SD. I grew up hunting with a .410 and realized its limitations pretty quickly, even on small game.

Step up to 20g and you still have a smaller lightweight gun, but now its capable of real SD. 20 pellets of #3 buck is no joke.
I agree but a 80 yr old man that has lived life and has a 410 double loaded with 3" (anything) will most likely when the fight
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Old 12-12-2012, 18:41   #4
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Originally Posted by collim1 View Post
I'd go with a 20g "coach gun" style. I agree that a double is a great, simple system to operate.

.410 is pitiful, even for small game. It throws a pitiful pattern full of holes. .410 slugs are also pretty useless. The new .410 loads designed for for the Judge type handguns are gimmicky, and I wouldn't trust them for SD. I grew up hunting with a .410 and realized its limitations pretty quickly, even on small game.
Step up to 20g and you still have a smaller lightweight gun, but now its capable of real SD. 20 pellets of #3 buck is no joke.
Out of a full length barrel, .410 buckshot is no joke either...

They don't sound very impressive on paper, but plenty of people use .410 slugs on deer.

Last edited by method; 12-12-2012 at 18:45..
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Old 12-12-2012, 19:28   #5
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I think he would do fine with one of these and some 3" mag buck shot.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...s_id/411544790
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Old 12-12-2012, 21:21   #6
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.410 is fine so long as you're using 5x buckshot and have follow up shots (I'd suggest a Mossberg 500e if you're set on the .410 route)

I have one with a pistol grip only, it's very light, short and handy. It's not my main home defense weapon (I also have a 12 gauge and a variety of other options) but I wouldn't feel undergunned with it. I might if it was a single or double shot only though...

Last edited by Burncycle; 12-12-2012 at 21:22..
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Old 12-12-2012, 21:27   #7
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A 410 with 000 or slugs will more than enough gun for an 80 year old man and women for HD. a 20 gauge with some high powered buck or slugs can really pack a wallup on 80 year old bones
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:26   #8
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A 410 with 000 or slugs will more than enough gun for an 80 year old man and women for HD. a 20 gauge with some high powered buck or slugs can really pack a wallup on 80 year old bones
You face a double-edged sword. Some of the nice small .410s are about as nasty on the back end as a heavier 20, and then again some 12s are easier than light 20s.

It's a toss up as to whether the weight or the recoil will be the problem.

Of course, the wild thinker I am, I thought of a 20 ga coach gun with .410 shell shrinkers.
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:58   #9
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THose newer 5 ball OOO loads for the Judge whould be pretty decisive in a 20+" bbl'd double, I'd think.
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:14   #10
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Can't support the use of .410.

20 gauge. If they are really that old and feeble, maybe it's time to surrender.
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:17   #11
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THose newer 5 ball OOO loads for the Judge whould be pretty decisive in a 20+" bbl'd double, I'd think.
That's what I was thinking.

( I still think they should make a small simple blowback carbine in .32 or .380 for some folks. Put a 16" barrel and buttstock on the Czech Skorpion, with sau, a 15-20 rd mag.)
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:22   #12
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Can't support the use of .410.

20 gauge. If they are really that old and feeble, maybe it's time to surrender.
Would you like a cookie to go with that glass of arrogance?

I hope you never get stuck in a situation with a gun you don't think measures up. Surrender is embarrasing
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:47   #13
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Although I really enjoy my SXS coachgun, for home defense two shots might not be enough.
I suggest a Glock G17 or anything similar.
It's easier to draw and use a handgun if you've "fallen and you can't get up." Sometimes only one hand is free.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:53   #14
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Would you like a cookie to go with that glass of arrogance?

I hope you never get stuck in a situation with a gun you don't think measures up. Surrender is embarrasing
You know, at some point you just aren't defending yourself with a gun. I understand that Grandpa may be elderly and pretty feeble. That doesn't mean he is an invalid.

But we wouldn't recommend a .22 pistol for his SD/HD needs either, and I'm really having a lot of trouble with the .410.

Basically we have said up front that we have a frail elderly individual, who isn't going to practice, and now we are recommending a terribly underpowered gun for him.

I am not at all saying he CAN'T defend himself with a .410. I know for certain a .410 could kill a bad guy dead. Emphasis on COULD. Probably won't - and not necessarily a 'stopper' either. I'm saying I'm not optimistic about how this turns out in a lot of ways. And we haven't even mentioned the guys vision / night vision ability yet.

At some point you may want to seriously start considering A .38 cal revolver, a good set of locks and security system, or perhaps even moving. Maybe a dog. This is almost the equivalent of a woman who doesn't like the big "bang" so she wants a .s22. Generally a bad idea.

And I'm recommending some sort of .20g - I didn't say he needed a 3" Magnum 12 to even begin to feel safe.

You can give me all the examples of how effective a .410 CAN be (when the wind is right, the stars aligned, the moon is full, on a Sunday, if it's the 7th, and the shooter is amazing). But generally, no.



The guy can find a Bantam 20, with the right ammo and training be good to go. And it will be wayyyyy better than the .410.

If you are getting the gun for SD/HD
#1 Learn to REALLY use it
#2 Bring enough gun

This guy said right out of the gate neither of those was happening - so now everyone is going to do triple backflips through flaming hoops to explain why a .410 is good choice. Well, I think it is a piss poor choice period. I'm not a fan of the 20, but it is at least in the realm of "acceptable" even if very low on the list.



You should have brought an apple, 'cause you just got schooled.

Last edited by Aceman; 12-13-2012 at 04:58..
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:56   #15
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Originally Posted by ChuteTheMall View Post
Although I really enjoy my SXS coachgun, for home defense two shots might not be enough.
I suggest a Glock G17 or anything similar.
It's easier to draw and use a handgun if you've "fallen and you can't get up." Sometimes only one hand is free.
Especially two shots of .410
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:49   #16
rkrk
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My father is 81 this month but is not feeble, frail or an invalid. Aside from reading glasses his vision (day and night) is intact. He does not walk with a cane and his wife who was also mentioned in the original post is 20 years his younger. He served in the army, still goes to work daily, and currently does own a 38, a good set of locks and a security system. He is looking for an additional layer of security and hence his request and my post.

Your points about the inadequacies of a 410 for HD are well taken.

My biggest concern is that I don't expect him to train regularly so want to get him a simple platform to use.

A bantam 20 is a good thought and something I had on my list as well.

Nice post. Thanks.

Let me know how that cookie is...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceman View Post
You know, at some point you just aren't defending yourself with a gun. I understand that Grandpa may be elderly and pretty feeble. That doesn't mean he is an invalid.

But we wouldn't recommend a .22 pistol for his SD/HD needs either, and I'm really having a lot of trouble with the .410.

Basically we have said up front that we have a frail elderly individual, who isn't going to practice, and now we are recommending a terribly underpowered gun for him.

I am not at all saying he CAN'T defend himself with a .410. I know for certain a .410 could kill a bad guy dead. Emphasis on COULD. Probably won't - and not necessarily a 'stopper' either. I'm saying I'm not optimistic about how this turns out in a lot of ways. And we haven't even mentioned the guys vision / night vision ability yet.

At some point you may want to seriously start considering A .38 cal revolver, a good set of locks and security system, or perhaps even moving. Maybe a dog. This is almost the equivalent of a woman who doesn't like the big "bang" so she wants a .s22. Generally a bad idea.

And I'm recommending some sort of .20g - I didn't say he needed a 3" Magnum 12 to even begin to feel safe.

You can give me all the examples of how effective a .410 CAN be (when the wind is right, the stars aligned, the moon is full, on a Sunday, if it's the 7th, and the shooter is amazing). But generally, no.



The guy can find a Bantam 20, with the right ammo and training be good to go. And it will be wayyyyy better than the .410.

If you are getting the gun for SD/HD
#1 Learn to REALLY use it
#2 Bring enough gun

This guy said right out of the gate neither of those was happening - so now everyone is going to do triple backflips through flaming hoops to explain why a .410 is good choice. Well, I think it is a piss poor choice period. I'm not a fan of the 20, but it is at least in the realm of "acceptable" even if very low on the list.



You should have brought an apple, 'cause you just got schooled.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:55   #17
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.410 is pitiful
Agree, horrible SD choice. Don't believe the hype. Stick with what works.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:02   #18
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Get him a 10/22 with a 25rd Butler Creek mag. If the chances are low that a quick stoppage will happen, at least give him 25 chances. Two shots of .410 would leave him extremely under-gunned.

Don't buy into the .410 Judge SD/HD hype.

Last edited by Fear Night; 12-13-2012 at 07:16..
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:15   #19
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a 410 is less than perfect. But it's much better than nothing. .410 slugs will do quite a job on a deer. It's not like they are coming out of a 6" barrel.

How bout some sort of 9mm carbine? Less recoil, more shots and not all that heavy.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:20   #20
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A double barrel 20 gauge with a good recoil pad would be my recommendation.

If that's too much recoil, a 9mm carbine might work, or a .357 levergun (also with a good recoil pad).

Last resort, a 10/22 with a couple 25 round mags. .22s can definitely be lethal, and 25 rounds of high velocity .22 at close range is not something i'd want to be up against even wearing armor, because people get lucky.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:16   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkrk View Post
My father is 81 this month but is not feeble, frail or an invalid. Aside from reading glasses his vision (day and night) is intact. He does not walk with a cane and his wife who was also mentioned in the original post is 20 years his younger. He served in the army, still goes to work daily, and currently does own a 38, a good set of locks and a security system. He is looking for an additional layer of security and hence his request and my post.
Your father is my newest role model.


But a long gun requiring two hands to manually operate presents additional challenges for home defense, there are retention issues (easier to grab someone's 18" barrel than his 2" barrel), and even if empty makes a formidible club for whoever is big enough and strong enough to grab control of it. Hard to carry it whenever answering the door.

I don't disagree with an added layer of security, and it's especially useful if the primary handgun is a mere revolver.
A G17 has 200% greater capacity than any six shooter, and a mag change is easier than fumbling with speedloaders while fighting for your life.

Last edited by ChuteTheMall; 12-13-2012 at 08:18..
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:37   #22
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On a totally different track, have you considered a revolver in .22 Mag?
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Old 12-13-2012, 16:31   #23
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My wife and I have been through the same decision-making process recently. On friend is in her mid-seventies and is somewhat weak. We spend a good bit of time investigating options, and coming up with unsuccessful ides. She couldn't rack a pistol, and even a 38's recoil was too much. She wants the ability to defend herself, but doesn't want too train. Their are negatives all over our story, but we finally settled on a .410, because, "It's better than a sharp stick." Maybe not much better, but a little better. She is also punching an LCR 22.

So I'm not questioning your points on the need for larger weapons. I have a 12gauge. But the reality was harder to deal with.


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Old 12-13-2012, 16:50   #24
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It's a challenge for elderly. Unfortunately, they are often preyed upon as 'easy targets'. While I understand a .410 is not an ideal for many of us, it may be ideal for an 81 yr old. You don't have to look too hard at the "Armed Citizen" articles to find cases where an older person has successfully defended themself using a weapon that many of us would deem far from ideal for SD.
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Old 12-13-2012, 16:59   #25
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Love all the guys banging on the .410.


If its so light a load which one of you will sign up to let me shoot you ?

Sounds to me like a great plan. Very reliable . Simple to use. Much better then nothing
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