[OctoberRust]

Originally Posted by captdreifus

With that logic, all guns owned by civilians are “toys” until they are fired in self defense.

Going with that train of thought: Aren’t guns carried by police and military “toys” until they fire them in anger?
What makes a CCW gun any different than one carried by police? Are we not carrying them for “duty (ie: self defense)” use?

If you read GNG lounge, you'll learn real quick not even to bother wasting keystrokes and time on M&P 15t, he's a waste of breathe/bandwidth.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by OctoberRust

If you read GNG lounge, you'll learn real quick not even to bother wasting keystrokes and time on M&P 15t, he's a waste of breathe/bandwidth.

Oh, yeaaaah....

And you get SOOOO much respect in the GNG lounge...

Relax, if you don't like my posts, put me on ignore.

[OctoberRust]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

Oh, yeaaaah....

And you get SOOOO much respect in the GNG lounge...

Relax, if you don't like my posts, put me on ignore.

No need to. You're quite entertaining. Sort of like Toroop and eurodriver.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by OctoberRust

No need to. You're quite entertaining. Sort of like Toroop and eurodriver.

You can PM me if you want to carry on with this.

[MD357]

Originally Posted by Glocksanity

One is much better off with an $800 gun and $2200 worth of training than a $3000 gun and no training.

Exactly. I don't know why others threw a hissy fit when people relay this. Maybe it's time for them to have the courage to step into a class or two.

[OctoberRust]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

You can PM me if you want to carry on with this.

I'm flattered by the offer, but I'm straight.

[mjkeat]

My only concern is encouraging people to not use a quality RDS or RDS at all. I know not all of you have but there seems to be a good crowd of those that do. I feel it's setting people up, not for failure but, to be slower. Learning irons is great but RDS are simply faster. Guys can train to be as fast w/ irons as someone w/ a RDS but...

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

My only concern is encouraging people to not use a quality RDS or RDS at all. I know not all of you have but there seems to be a good crowd of those that do. I feel it's setting people up, not for failure but, to be slower. Learning irons is great but RDS are simply faster. Guys can train to be as fast w/ irons as someone w/ a RDS but...

I agree that irons are typically be slower than RDS, but you have to teach the students to run what they brung. If his students show up with a basic carbine with iron sights, teach them to use them. I'm guessing that a student who shows up with a basic carbine, straight out of the box is a beginner. Maybe they served in the military, but in a support role, so they are familiar with the rifle, but not proficient (like me). So my thought would be teach them with the irons, but towards the end of the class bring out one of the rifles with RDS and let them shoot a few rounds with it.

Also, not meant to be offensive, but someone running a lower cost rifle is more than likely running lower cost optics. My Sport currently has a Millet RDS. It suits my current needs, for recreational shooting and hunting. If my RDS dies, I switch over to irons, and that hog may get to see another day. If I take a class and begin to use my Sport as more of a SD type weapon, there will be some things that must change.

I guess it is kinda like how my wife teaches her 6th graders...lowest common denominator. In AZL's classes, the lowest common denominator is black rifle.

[Zombie Steve]

I think no matter what, one should be proficient with irons as the baseline. When batteries run out, mounts work themselves loose, glass breaks (managed this on a hunt once), or if the optics generally get knocked out of whack, you can still shoot accurately.

[series1811]

Originally Posted by Glocksanity

Great thread.

One is much better off with an $800 gun and $2200 worth of training than a $3000 gun and no training.

Another basic and simple truth that seems to get lost somewhere in these discussions.

[FireForged]

I have been shooting AR's since the 80's and will admit that once upon a time, I strapped on a "light saddle". It was one of the very first mounting systems for adding a light to a rifle. Back in those days, flashlights were monsterous and it was a rather silly thing for me to do. I thought it looked kinda cool but after trying to shoot with it, I quickly realized that, eh.. I just didnt want it on there.

Its all just a process of learning and I dont think that just because people add gadgets to their rifle necessarily means anything at all (except purhaps youthful enthusiasm). If back in 1983 they had sub-micro lights and lasers, people would have mounted them all over their rifle- same as now. I believe most average people understand that a firearm is a firearm..is a firearm and that they all can be used to defend even in its most basic form. Technology is available on the cheap and people what to play.

In my limited laymans experience, I have noticed that most people own a AR simply because they can. I would guess that if someone turns it into a space gun, its probably for the same reason.

Own a Bushmaster A1 (stubby stock) with nothing on it at all. If someone wants to deck their rifle out like a star-wars prop, they will still get a thumbs up from me.

[Kingtubby]

I think no matter what, one should be proficient with irons as the baseline. When batteries run out, mounts work themselves loose, glass breaks (managed this on a hunt once), or if the optics generally get knocked out of whack, you can still shoot accurately.

^^^This^^^

I am getting a red dot, but not for my AR. The stock stag irons are plenty good for me to be reasonably accurate offhand and on the move to 100yds w/out much delay. And I havent even put 200rds thru it yet. I will just keep blasting more rounds in an effort to get quicker and more accurate still.

The RD is for my AK, which Im not so accurate with, nor is my TA very quick or reliable. I must admit though, Im curious to see how much better a RD is. Maybe it will convert me.

[mjkeat]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

My only concern is encouraging people to not use a quality RDS or RDS at all. I know not all of you have but there seems to be a good crowd of those that do. I feel it's setting people up, not for failure but, to be slower. Learning irons is great but RDS are simply faster. Guys can train to be as fast w/ irons as someone w/ a RDS but...

Originally Posted by cyphertext

I agree that irons are typically be slower than RDS, but you have to teach the students to run what they brung. If his students show up with a basic carbine with iron sights, teach them to use them. I'm guessing that a student who shows up with a basic carbine, straight out of the box is a beginner. Maybe they served in the military, but in a support role, so they are familiar with the rifle, but not proficient (like me). So my thought would be teach them with the irons, but towards the end of the class bring out one of the rifles with RDS and let them shoot a few rounds with it.

Also, not meant to be offensive, but someone running a lower cost rifle is more than likely running lower cost optics. My Sport currently has a Millet RDS. It suits my current needs, for recreational shooting and hunting. If my RDS dies, I switch over to irons, and that hog may get to see another day. If I take a class and begin to use my Sport as more of a SD type weapon, there will be some things that must change.

I guess it is kinda like how my wife teaches her 6th graders...lowest common denominator. In AZL's classes, the lowest common denominator is black rifle.

We're on the same page.

Originally Posted by Kingtubby

^^^This^^^

I am getting a red dot, but not for my AR. The stock stag irons are plenty good for me to be reasonably accurate offhand and on the move to 100yds w/out much delay. And I havent even put 200rds thru it yet. I will just keep blasting more rounds in an effort to get quicker and more accurate still.

The RD is for my AK, which Im not so accurate with, nor is my TA very quick or reliable. I must admit though, Im curious to see how much better a RD is. Maybe it will convert me.

"Plenty good," as in good enough?

I completely agree w/ what the OP is demonstrating to his students. I also believe irons can get the job done. However, "plenty good" or any other phrase from the "good enough" family is defeatist. These are the phrases I use when I'm bored w/ a job and just want it to be over with. This seems to be the montra of society so I understand. I'm guilty of it more often than I'd like. Of course I can only speak for myself.

[FireForged]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

"Plenty good," as in good enough?.

Down here in the South, its means.. a little better than good enough

[MrMurphy]

My other half is prior service Army, and she only ever used the M16A2.

My carbine has all the stuff "I" trained with, but when she shoots it, she normally shoots the irons. Because it's what she knows. She's slowly getting up to speed on red dots, but she was a finance clerk, not a doorkicker, and she knows my experience and training level is far above hers.

That said, with irons, in the prone, she can hit anything inside 250m with confidence, in a hurry, with any AR platform. She's not up to room clearing with one, etc, but in the event she had to defend a position and had a supply of mags and targets, they'd be in trouble.

Learning the basics is always good. That said, once you learn them, graduate to the current standard.

[faawrenchbndr]

Good stuff 'Murphy!

[Hour13]

Wow, intelligent conversation appears to have returned to this thread, lol.



I am a firm believer in the RDS for speed. I'm a pretty damn good shot running irons, and I enjoy using irons. When I go to the to just have some fun, I rarely ever use optics. But when I'm actually practicing serious shooting, it's a different story.

Now... I am not an "operator" and I'm not sitting by the phone waiting for that call from Seal6 to come help them, lol.

My ARs are for SD/HD, and in a realistic situation where I'm able to get to my rifle, using irons alone? I have zero doubt that I will get the job done just fine. However, I am faster with a red-dot, and I know this. So I'm going to utilize whatever advantage I can.

Faster = Better. Every single time.

My bedside gun, other than the 870, is my BCM middy. On top? A Vortex StrikeFire.

"OMG, you need to get an Aimpoint! I can't believe your HD gun is relying on a 'non-combat' RDS! You gonna trust your life to that thing???"

Yes. Yes I am.

Just personal preference, I don't care much for Eotechs, but I do love Aimpoint. The PRO is probably the greatest optic I've ever had.

But I don't have one at the moment, went out on a gun I sold. I bought this Strikefire on a whim, and I'll be damned, darn good little RD. I dialed it in on it's first trip to the range. Hundreds of rounds, and a couple of "oops" drops later, I still have not had to touch the adjustments. Kicks on every time, holds it's zero perfectly.

Would I take it into combat?

No, I'd take an Aimpoint.


Am I heading into combat?

No, or I'd have already bought another Aimpoint.


If you've got the cheese to throw an ACOG on your HD gun, by all means, do it! Assuming you've already covered ammo and classes.

But(sorry to burst anybody's fantasy) Home Defense is not Combat. If a squad of trained soldiers drops into your pad on lines at 2am...

You're boned.

I don't care how awesome you are, or what amazing gear you have.

So being "prepared" for that is an exercise in futility. Nevermind that it's just retarded to begin with.

Most likely? A burglar. Ooooohh...

Less likely, but possible? Home invasion. Multiple BGs, likely armed, aggressive/violent mindset. Scary. If you can't get the job done with a basic AR and a functional, accurate RDS...

You can't get the job done, period. And once again... you're boned.


Just my $.02 rant over.

[fnfalman]

Some people just can't grasp the fact that SW puts out good guns for reasonable prices.

Some people just can't grasp the fact that for even the worst case of home self-defense, a Swiss Army Knife equipped AR is not even close to necessary much less essential.

Elegance in simplicity is an axiom that is lost in the Electronic Age.

[Hour13]

Originally Posted by fnfalman

Some people just can't grasp the fact that SW puts out good guns for reasonable prices.

"HOW DARE THEY??? I just spent all this money on my Noveske..."

Originally Posted by fnfalman

Some people just can't grasp the fact that for even the worst case of home self-defense, a Swiss Army Knife equipped AR is not even close to necessary much less essential.

Elegance in simplicity is an axiom that is lost in the Electronic Age.

Bingo.

[TangoFoxtrot]

Originally Posted by Hour13

Wow, intelligent conversation appears to have returned to this thread, lol.



I am a firm believer in the RDS for speed. I'm a pretty damn good shot running irons, and I enjoy using irons. When I go to the to just have some fun, I rarely ever use optics. But when I'm actually practicing serious shooting, it's a different story.

Now... I am not an "operator" and I'm not sitting by the phone waiting for that call from Seal6 to come help them, lol.

My ARs are for SD/HD, and in a realistic situation where I'm able to get to my rifle, using irons alone? I have zero doubt that I will get the job done just fine. However, I am faster with a red-dot, and I know this. So I'm going to utilize whatever advantage I can.

Faster = Better. Every single time.

My bedside gun, other than the 870, is my BCM middy. On top? A Vortex StrikeFire.

"OMG, you need to get an Aimpoint! I can't believe your HD gun is relying on a 'non-combat' RDS! You gonna trust your life to that thing???"

Yes. Yes I am.

Just personal preference, I don't care much for Eotechs, but I do love Aimpoint. The PRO is probably the greatest optic I've ever had.

But I don't have one at the moment, went out on a gun I sold. I bought this Strikefire on a whim, and I'll be damned, darn good little RD. I dialed it in on it's first trip to the range. Hundreds of rounds, and a couple of "oops" drops later, I still have not had to touch the adjustments. Kicks on every time, holds it's zero perfectly.

Would I take it into combat?

No, I'd take an Aimpoint.


Am I heading into combat?

No, or I'd have already bought another Aimpoint.


If you've got the cheese to throw an ACOG on your HD gun, by all means, do it! Assuming you've already covered ammo and classes.

But(sorry to burst anybody's fantasy) Home Defense is not Combat. If a squad of trained soldiers drops into your pad on lines at 2am...

You're boned.

I don't care how awesome you are, or what amazing gear you have.

So being "prepared" for that is an exercise in futility. Nevermind that it's just retarded to begin with.

Most likely? A burglar. Ooooohh...

Less likely, but possible? Home invasion. Multiple BGs, likely armed, aggressive/violent mindset. Scary. If you can't get the job done with a basic AR and a functional, accurate RDS...

You can't get the job done, period. And once again... you're boned.


Just my $.02 rant over.

Well stated rant!

[series1811]

Originally Posted by MD357

Exactly. I don't know why others threw a hissy fit when people relay this. Maybe it's time for them to have the courage to step into a class or two.

Its a peculiar attitude mostly confined to guns and personal defense for some reason.

I mean, do you really have anyone here who thinks they would be a better diesel mechanic with a $3000 dollar set of brand new tools and self training from the internet, than a guy with a used set of tools he bought for $500 bucks at a pawn shop and then got $2500 in professional diesel mechanic training from real diesel mechanics?

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by cyphertext

I agree that irons are typically be slower than RDS, but you have to teach the students to run what they brung. If his students show up with a basic carbine with iron sights, teach them to use them. I'm guessing that a student who shows up with a basic carbine, straight out of the box is a beginner. Maybe they served in the military, but in a support role, so they are familiar with the rifle, but not proficient (like me). So my thought would be teach them with the irons, but towards the end of the class bring out one of the rifles with RDS and let them shoot a few rounds with it.

Also, not meant to be offensive, but someone running a lower cost rifle is more than likely running lower cost optics. My Sport currently has a Millet RDS. It suits my current needs, for recreational shooting and hunting. If my RDS dies, I switch over to irons, and that hog may get to see another day. If I take a class and begin to use my Sport as more of a SD type weapon, there will be some things that must change.

I guess it is kinda like how my wife teaches her 6th graders...lowest common denominator. In AZL's classes, the lowest common denominator is black rifle.

Millet sights are solid. One of my best combat rifle instructors runs a Millet. He is a Vietnam era paratrooper, and you know how those SF guys are about their parachutes and other unimportant gear. Millets are heavy, and the battery life isn't great, but MJ shoots a match 2x/month and trains a lot, and his Millet takes it all. I suggested he upgrade a few months back, and he said that they both were old and crotchety and could both still hold a minute of felon!

[Zombie Steve]

Originally Posted by Hour13

Wow, intelligent conversation appears to have returned to this thread, lol.

My dad could beat up your dad.

[fnfalman]

Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

My dad could beat up your dad.

Not unless your dad is a 3rd degree black belt Taekwondo trained in the old country.

[MD357]

Originally Posted by series1811

I mean, do you really have anyone here who thinks they would be a better diesel mechanic with a $3000 dollar set of brand new tools and self training from the internet, than a guy with a used set of tools he bought for $500 bucks at a pawn shop and then got $2500 in professional diesel mechanic training from real diesel mechanics?

Well he DID teach himself to play tennis so....