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Old 08-24-2012, 22:19   #51
mjkeat
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Absolutely.

Why do you feel that I shouldn't?


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What about my question would make you think I do?

Let me ask another question. Are these 8-12 mag carriers/rigs going in the trunks of your everyday patrol officer or on the backs of SRT/SWAT?

Last edited by mjkeat; 08-24-2012 at 22:28..
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Old 08-24-2012, 23:10   #52
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What about my question would make you think I do?

Let me ask another question. Are these 8-12 mag carriers/rigs going in the trunks of your everyday patrol officer or on the backs of SRT/SWAT?
Who do you think will be at an incident first?
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Old 08-24-2012, 23:34   #53
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Who do you think will be at an incident first?
The suspect and victims along w/ bystanders/witnesses. That's a joke. I think people missed the point and/or misunderstood my original post.
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Old 08-25-2012, 01:08   #54
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What about my question would make you think I do?

Let me ask another question. Are these 8-12 mag carriers/rigs going in the trunks of your everyday patrol officer or on the backs of SRT/SWAT?
I don't have the detailed stats and data you're looking for, nor would I be inclined to post that kind of detail here if I did (which is probably why you haven't gotten an answer from people who do have that data) but maybe I can shed some light.

Most of what you are seeing in this discussion is a desire by individual officers to be prepared for a worst-case scenario even if their administration doesn't see an immediate need for it.

Having a kit in your trunk to address something like a Columbine or North Hollywood shootout should be the new "normal" for SHTF thinking. Some people will say "That's never happened HERE, it's overkill and unnecessary." Well, it had never happened in Columbine either... until it did.

Wouldn't you prefer to have Cheesy or SAR or SCSU74 or socalchuckster responding to your kids school if something like that happened vs Barney Fife? So sure, it may look like a lot, especially since no one expects something like that to happen in their city tomorrow... but none of these guys expect that it won't happen and are doing all they can to be ready when it does.

My $.02

BTW - I suspect most are putting kits together out of their own pockets or via uniform allowance.
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Old 08-25-2012, 01:21   #55
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Hell my dept doesn't even have SWAT/SRT/SQUIRT/SORT/ or what ever you call it in your city....

Everything in my bag has been purchased out of my own pocket or "acquired"... We don't get a uniform allowance.

I'm of the opinion it's not a matter of if but when something major will occur in my city, weather it be an active shooter event, a hostage situation, a barricaded person or who knows what...
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Old 08-25-2012, 08:40   #56
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Most of what you are seeing in this discussion is a desire by individual officers to be prepared for a worst-case scenario even if their administration doesn't see an immediate need for it.

Having a kit in your trunk to address something like a Columbine or North Hollywood shootout should be the new "normal" for SHTF thinking. Some people will say "That's never happened HERE, it's overkill and unnecessary." Well, it had never happened in Columbine either... until it did.

Wouldn't you prefer to have Cheesy or SAR or SCSU74 or socalchuckster responding to your kids school if something like that happened vs Barney Fife? So sure, it may look like a lot, especially since no one expects something like that to happen in their city tomorrow... but none of these guys expect that it won't happen and are doing all they can to be ready when it does.

My $.02

BTW - I suspect most are putting kits together out of their own pockets or via uniform allowance.
Thank you for the rresponse

Preparedness is golden regardless if it's my child'school they are responding to or not. One is none. Right?

Could these large kits, not the 3-5 but the 12 mag rigs, be a hindrance? How important is mobility in an active shooter scenario? I ask be cause I don't know. My only experience is in patrolling the mountains of Afghan. Even then, w/ large ambushes looming mobility under contact was important and we adjusted our load-out.

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Hell my dept doesn't even have SWAT/SRT/SQUIRT/SORT/ or what ever you call it in your city....

Everything in my bag has been purchased out of my own pocket or "acquired"... We don't get a uniform allowance.

I'm of the opinion it's not a matter of if but when something major will occur in my city, weather it be an active shooter event, a hostage situation, a barricaded person or who knows what...
Thank you for and everyone else taking it upon yourself to bridge the gap left by your department.

Last edited by mjkeat; 08-25-2012 at 08:41..
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Old 08-25-2012, 14:01   #57
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Could these large kits, not the 3-5 but the 12 mag rigs, be a hindrance? How important is mobility in an active shooter scenario? I ask be cause I don't know. My only experience is in patrolling the mountains of Afghan. Even then, w/ large ambushes looming mobility under contact was important and we adjusted our load-out.
Ok, well, seeing as how you mention Afghanistan, I'll shed a little more light. A few years ago, our Department learned that intel had been recovered in AFPAK outlining detailed attack plans on US soil. Our city was featured prominently and was considered a primary target of opportunity by Al Qaeda. When the Mumbai attacks happened, the powers to be on our Department determined that we had to somehow prepare for the eventuality of such an attack within our own city. So while it may sound farfetched to you, it doesn't when put into context. How much armor and how many rounds do you need to go up against a trained group of terrorists with a willingness to die? So we ramped up training, and issued rifles and armor. Just so you know, the armor I have was issued to me. I didn't just go out and buy it at the mall ninja store. As far as loadout, our policy dictates how much I have to carry. For so many years, officers complained about being outgunned on the streets. I have absolutely no complaints that the pendulum is swinging the other way. It's just too bad it took 4,000+ innocent civilians dying before people started to wake up and smell the coffee.

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Old 08-25-2012, 15:03   #58
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In these engagements how many rounds did you fire personally? How many rounds did each officer fire on average? How many suspects were involved in each of these engagements?

To be clear I only ask after seeing some of these rigs w/ more extensive load-outs than some of our Infantry guys.

Not questioning the decision just asking.
If you are asking questions like the above, yes you are questioning the decision. It's simple - he doesn't want to run out of ammo, and carries a lot. With good reason. I detect a strong hint of "you don't need that much" in your questions. Otherwise, why are you asking him how may round he fired and what the average was per officer (about as dumb a question as I've heard - ammo should be issued or carried based on the average of the last engagement? Do they do that in the military now? Or do they let you carry as much in your truck as you can get and carry on your person what you feel is appropriate? I think I know the answer.
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Old 08-25-2012, 15:30   #59
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Ok, well, seeing as how you mention Afghanistan, I'll shed a little more light. A few years ago, our Department learned that intel had been recovered in AFPAK outlining detailed attack plans on US soil. Our city was featured prominently and was considered a primary target of opportunity by Al Qaeda. When the Mumbai attacks happened, the powers to be on our Department determined that we had to somehow prepare for the eventuality of such an attack within our own city. So while it may sound farfetched to you, it doesn't when put into context. How much armor and how many rounds do you need to go up against a trained group of terrorists with a willingness to die? So we ramped up training, and issued rifles and armor. Just so you know, the armor I have was issued to me. I didn't just go out and buy it at the mall ninja store. As far as loadout, our policy dictates how much I have to carry. For so many years, officers complained about being outgunned on the streets. I have absolutely no complaints that the pendulum is swinging the other way. It's just too bad it took 4,000+ innocent civilians dying before people started to wake up and smell the coffee.

v/r
Well it's nice that your department has the funding to issue your kit.

I agree, it's nice to an increase in available tools. To bad it had to happen after the fact.

Were the complaints about being outguned refereing to the weapons available or amount of ammunition at hand?


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If you are asking questions like the above, yes you are questioning the decision. It's simple - he doesn't want to run out of ammo, and carries a lot. With good reason. I detect a strong hint of "you don't need that much" in your questions. Otherwise, why are you asking him how may round he fired and what the average was per officer (about as dumb a question as I've heard - ammo should be issued or carried based on the average of the last engagement? Do they do that in the military now? Or do they let you carry as much in your truck as you can get and carry on your person what you feel is appropriate? I think I know the answer.
Your assumptions are wrong, the question was not to question.

If you're going to call names such as "dumb" I'd recommend you read your posts before hitting submit.

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I had no intention other than to pick the brains here in this sub-forum. It seems like it's a semi touchy subject. Sorry if my post was misunderstood and upset anyone.

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Old 08-25-2012, 17:21   #60
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I hear ya. The problem is storage and logistics of moving it in and out of my assigned car without a boss seeing it.
http://www.oakley.com/products/1258/16314

enough room for a 10x12 carrier, helmet and drop leg mag pouch
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Old 08-25-2012, 17:25   #61
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Ok, well, seeing as how you mention Afghanistan, I'll shed a little more light. A few years ago, our Department learned that intel had been recovered in AFPAK outlining detailed attack plans on US soil. Our city was featured prominently and was considered a primary target of opportunity by Al Qaeda. When the Mumbai attacks happened, the powers to be on our Department determined that we had to somehow prepare for the eventuality of such an attack within our own city. So while it may sound farfetched to you, it doesn't when put into context. How much armor and how many rounds do you need to go up against a trained group of terrorists with a willingness to die? So we ramped up training, and issued rifles and armor. Just so you know, the armor I have was issued to me. I didn't just go out and buy it at the mall ninja store. As far as loadout, our policy dictates how much I have to carry. For so many years, officers complained about being outgunned on the streets. I have absolutely no complaints that the pendulum is swinging the other way. It's just too bad it took 4,000+ innocent civilians dying before people started to wake up and smell the coffee.

v/r
man that'd be awesome to be issued armor, mine, along with the majority of officers at our dept purchased ours out of pocket
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Old 08-25-2012, 18:24   #62
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I'm relegated to buying stuff at the mall ninja store since my department issues the initial duty belt, G22 and bare accessories. Nothing more.

Mjkeat, one of our members here was involved in a 15-30 minute firefight on a city street next to a university against an adversary armed with a 7.62 scoped rifle who had already killed a cop and citizen prior to his arrival and prior to his taking shrapnel himself.

From what I know they either shot up or damn near shot up all the ammo on hand before they killed the BG.

It ain't A-stan but it still sucks.
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Old 08-25-2012, 19:08   #63
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man that'd be awesome to be issued armor, mine, along with the majority of officers at our dept purchased ours out of pocket
Just to be perfectly honest here, not all of our guys get issued armor. Mostly it is based on need. Of course all of our SWAT guys get it, but also gang guys, fugitive detail guys- mostly officers who do a lot of high risk entries and such. A good portion of officers do end up purchasing their own armor. I consider myself lucky to have gotten one and don't ever take it for granted.
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Old 08-25-2012, 19:27   #64
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I'm relegated to buying stuff at the mall ninja store since my department issues the initial duty belt, G22 and bare accessories. Nothing more.

Mjkeat, one of our members here was involved in a 15-30 minute firefight on a city street next to a university against an adversary armed with a 7.62 scoped rifle who had already killed a cop and citizen prior to his arrival and prior to his taking shrapnel himself.

From what I know they either shot up or damn near shot up all the ammo on hand before they killed the BG.

It ain't A-stan but it still sucks.
I think it would suck even more.

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Old 08-26-2012, 07:42   #65
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Both have pluses and minuses for sure.
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:58   #66
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Early on in my career, in 1980, I was involved in a bank robbery/pursuit where a Deputy was killed, numerous Deputies and Officers were shot, a helicopter was shot down, and several thousands of rounds of ammunition were fired. Then fast forward to 1997, and deja vu all over again. Again my agency was involved in a band robbery where several thousand rounds were fired, and numerous officers and bystanders were shot. In 1999, again, my agency was involved with an active shooter who shot numerous people at a Jewish Synagogue. And intertwined in those high profile events have been several hundred shootings my agency has been involved in, not with thousands of rounds fired, but many in the hundreds. I was personally present at approximately 20 of them. The last being on December 9, 2012. During that time, I have fired my weapon on duty approximately 12 times, and been shot once. So you're asking me why I carry 12 30 round magazines?
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Old 08-26-2012, 10:07   #67
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:hero:

Was that Norco, SAR?

(I was 11 y/o)...ha ha...


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Old 08-26-2012, 10:36   #68
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Was that Norco, SAR?

(I was 11 y/o)...ha ha...


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Yes. I'm surprised you remembered. I was working for a police agency in Riverside County at the time. Had just cleared the station for the swing shift and was standing in the parking lot of Winchell's Donuts-- haha, go figure, when we got an all units message to respond back to the station immediately. Didn't know what it was all about because something like that never happened before. We were all told to go into the roll call room. An ashen faced watch commander then announced that a bank robbery had happened in Norco. There were known to be shots fired and that contact had been lost with numerous officers, and they were presumed dead or seriously injured. The watch commander told us to mount up with all the ammunition we could muster up. Some of the guys retrieved rifles. We loaded up our trunks and went out. In this pursuit, and apprehension, one deputy (James Evans) was killed, and nine officers were seriously injured. Thirty police vehicles were damaged, and one helicopter (SBSO 40-King) was shot down. Thousands of rounds or fire were exchanged. Didn't get home until a day a half later.

I later went to Riverside Sheriff's Deputy James Evan's funeral. It was the first one I had ever been to in my career. I would go on to work with about half a dozen guys who were injured or were in the thick of this incident. We'd rarely talk about it, though. Most if not all of the guys eventually retired. I was probably one of the youngest with barely a few months on the job. I later transferred to a larger agency out West, but never forgot what happaned that day. This incident, more than any other probably changed the way I think to this day about personal preparation.
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Old 08-26-2012, 16:24   #69
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I'd rather have it and not need it....





Id love to be able to patrol with a LBV with 3-5 extra rifle mags and 3-5 extra pistol mags. I could take some weight off my belt too. It really only takes one time to need what you don't have to realize you need it. I could go the rest of my career and never fire my firearm or I could god forbid get into a shoot out tonight.




Of course the powers that be think I'd scare the criminals with that kind of gear.

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Old 08-26-2012, 17:16   #70
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I was born/raised in Manhattan Beach, but I have a cousin that was with RSO (ret.) and later went on to work at the contract Moreno Valley Police Department. I don't think he was working at the time of the incident but I recall the when it happened.

Fast forward (too many) years and I'm working for a city of about 8.000 surrounded by corn fields and farms. Many colleagues figure it will "never happen" here. I've spent oodles of my own cash for additional ammo and pistol magazines for a department-owned gun that I don't even like. I carry duty ammo in personally-owned rifle magazines for their gun too.

Nothing special in my kit. Three pistol magazines, two, 20-rd. P-Mags, a bottle of water, ear plugs, safety glasses, CR123 batteries and a spare pair of patrol gloves in a cheap Harbor Freight Tools canvas tote bag that's clipped to my patrol bag with a carabiner. Vest in the trunk, provided by the department (one-size fits all, right?).
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Old 08-26-2012, 21:33   #71
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Early on in my career, in 1980, I was involved in a bank robbery/pursuit where a Deputy was killed, numerous Deputies and Officers were shot, a helicopter was shot down, and several thousands of rounds of ammunition were fired. Then fast forward to 1997, and deja vu all over again. Again my agency was involved in a band robbery where several thousand rounds were fired, and numerous officers and bystanders were shot. In 1999, again, my agency was involved with an active shooter who shot numerous people at a Jewish Synagogue. And intertwined in those high profile events have been several hundred shootings my agency has been involved in, not with thousands of rounds fired, but many in the hundreds. I was personally present at approximately 20 of them. The last being on December 9, 2012. During that time, I have fired my weapon on duty approximately 12 times, and been shot once. So you're asking me why I carry 12 30 round magazines?
That's some serious street creds sir.

Me, I carry 12 mags because I worry about something just like this kinda thing. Only in my area, it's going to be just me and a few other guys (if I'm lucky) to deal with it.

Aaaand, inevitably it will happen, and the joker with me will only have his 90 rounds with him, and need some of mine too.




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Old 08-27-2012, 00:51   #72
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I hear ya. The problem is storage and logistics of moving it in and out of my assigned car without a boss seeing it.
I use one of the rubbermaid 8gal actionpacker totes to haul my stuff from office to car. If you don't have the convenience of a secure office you could toss it in your POV after shift.

I use mine to hold a plate carrier, a chest rig, extra ammo, water, anything that doesn't fit in my patrol bag. I share a car too and found this to be the easiest way to lug my junk around w/o leaving it in the car for others to pilfer. Theres even a spot on each handle for a padlock if you have some real problem coworkers that need that extra bit to keep them out.

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Old 08-27-2012, 07:25   #73
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Here's what I have on hand. Scalable of course to fit the situation. At the very minimum, I have two extra handgun magazines on my sam browne. If I need to deploy my rifle, the minimum load out to go with the rifle is a thigh rig with four extra 30 round magazines. If it starts to go sideways, my tac vest has three more 30 round M4 magazines, and two extra handgun magazines. If it gets worse, I have five more 30 rounders and a couple more handgun magazines that I can deploy.

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That is nice! Who makes that one? I can't quite make out the logo.
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Old 08-27-2012, 07:59   #74
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That is nice! Who makes that one? I can't quite make out the logo.
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Old 09-10-2012, 20:47   #75
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I hear ya. The problem is storage and logistics of moving it in and out of my assigned car without a boss seeing it.
Hey Cheesy, I've got your solution right here! I've been looking for a violin case for a long time that would fit this but haven't had any luck. Tonight I ran across this gem at the music store with my kids. Heavily padded (I'll probably cut a piece of foam for fit) and a nice pouch on the outside for mags

"Sir? What's this? Oh, just my rig for playing songs with the hippies in the park on my break. Great for community relations sir."

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